Umineko no Naku Koro ni

[Buffalobiian]

rofl, what did i just watch? Kanons in the room giving her her asthma medication, and then beatrice summons a hoard of demon goat butlers with energy swords and kanon enters combat with them? WHAT!? rofl, that has to be the most ridiculous thing..

Rather than thinking it was ridiculous, I thought it was insightful. I explained Kanon's obsession with remaining as furniture -because he's created as furniture. If you take into account that Kinzo could actually summon a witch, then it's not too far fetched to say it's also possible for him to create something much less.

Of course, that is if you believe there's a drop of magical existence in this show.

After revealing the game format, I take back my words about this being "pointless" somewhat. I'm still waiting for them to reveal what happened in the first iteration by the end of it, but this deduction game is actually getting somewhere.

[MasterOfMoogles]

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.

You don't have to explain the game itself, that is a devil's proof. There could be X method of inducing said visions, not magical in nature, that you cannot disprove.

[Kraco]

You don't have to explain the game itself, that is a devil's proof.

It's no such thing. It's not the focus of the story and thus conveniently bypassed. I simply thought to mention it because I paid a little attention to it when it happened, but like I said, it doesn't disturb me. However, while their game is Battler trying to explain how the murders could occur without magic, it's only Beatrice's whim that makes such a thing needed or even possible. There're any number of very simply things Beatrice could do in a second to prove magic exists - and if magic exists, there's no reason why it couldn't be used for murdering.

Unless, of course, Ryllharu is correct and Battler's stubborn anti-magic mindset actually prevents Beatrice from performing magic when he's observing. Such a case would actually force Beatrice to accept the game as much as it does Battler himself.

[Kraco]

A drop of magical existence:

Episode 9 - gg

[Buffalobiian]

The action this week should satisfy even those who thought last week's was lacking. When did Shannon learn to backflip like that?

I'm liking this repeat much better than the first one because of the amount of screen time Shannon, Beatrice and to a lesser extent Rosa are getting. I never liked that George's cocky mother. While I miss Natsushi a bit, the above combo more than makes up for it.

I stand by my words about how this new version by Beatrice doesn't help solve the original case until (from what I can see), but it's definitely making things interesting. Even if they played everything from a difference perspective, I would have gotten bored before the 26-episode run was over.

Entertainment > Logic/sense.

[Kraco]

I find it a little disappointing and worrisome that Battler gave up. While it's nothing so extraordinary as such: Many ordinary crimes go unsolved even by professionals, it still doesn't bode well for the game between him and Beatrice. If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

[Buffalobiian]

If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

That would be a draw. He can't explain the crime, but he's not ready to give up because he still thinks it can be explained, just that he hasn't figured it out yet.

When he figures it out, he wins.

When he thinks he's exhausted all options and accepts the fact that it has to be magic (this will come naturally when he truly believes it can't be explained), Beatrice wins.

As long as he doesn't give in, he can play another round.

[Pandadice]

The action this week should satisfy even those who thought last week's was lacking. When did Shannon learn to backflip like that?
.

If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

alright, after reading those posts i'm not even gonna bother downloading this episode..

[Nadouku]

So much supernatural stuff happening that I can't even distinguish what is suppose to be real and what isn't. Battler better not go out just yet! He has to have more options up his sleeve!

[Ryllharu]

That would be a draw. He can't explain the crime, but he's not ready to give up because he still thinks it can be explained, just that he hasn't figured it out yet.

It ends in a draw because Battler can't prove it, but Beatrice can only ask him to believe in magic. He of course refuses. Beatrice could win by forcing him to acknowledge and witness magic.

But again, only strong believers witnessed the extraordinary again. The old lady believes in Beatrice, and Shannon certainly does, so just like with Kanon and Jessica, Beatrice is able to ramp up the level of absurdity. Battler, being sequestered in the room with Rosa and the rest of the head family, is notably not present once again.

So, I think this reinforces that Beatrice cannot use magic around Battler or someone else who simply doesn't believe. She generated an absurd scenario to kill Jessica and Kanon, but in the end it just became another fairly mundane "closed room" puzzle to Battler. Beatrice didn't even try to bring up any of what we saw last episode, and there was no damage to the room. Sadly Battler wouldn't doggedly pursue every lead (he didn't even ask if all the servants had their keys right that minute!), and he painted himself into a corner when Beatrice refused to answer and he didn't question the holes in her testimonies.

She is upping the ante with this new scenario, creating two more deaths, but creating three direct witnesses to the supernatural occurence. Battler will have a bitch of a time disproving this. Beatrice even left physical evidence of a large bladed weapon with that hole in the floor.

[Kraco]

Battler will have a bitch of a time disproving this. Beatrice even left physical evidence of a large bladed weapon with that hole in the floor.

They don't presently have Kanon's corpse, though. If the survivors mention Kanon's name, it will point to him, and Battler can just disregard the fancier parts of the story, attributing them to shock or whatever. Since the doc is dead, even if they find Kanon's cadaver later, nobody is really qualified to say whether he died before or after the kitchen incident.

Unless Beatrice cheats by red lettering that Kanon was already dead back then. In which case Battler would say the remaining servants are wolves. Or scrap the whole idea of believing in Beatrice's ultimate truth - why should he anyway, since in the end it means nothing. It's like the judge would believe the accused always speaks the truth. As stupid a belief as believing in magic, surely, and only convenient for Beatrice but a nuisance for Battler.

[Buffalobiian]

Unless Beatrice cheats by red lettering that Kanon was already dead back then.

She already did that. Battler asked her to repeat that "Kanon died in the room (when they were in the closed room)", and she repeated with red letters.

he didn't even ask if all the servants had their keys right that minute!

I would have thought that was obvious too. I've lost some of my confidence in Battler after that weak interrogation.

[Kraco]

She already did that. Battler asked her to repeat that "Kanon died in the room (when they were in the closed room)", and she repeated with red letters.

Indeed, I forgot all about that. I don't know what Battler will think about that if Kanon's name turns up when they ponder the kitchen attack. Personally I'd dismiss the importance of the red letters entirely from that point on, even if I didn't necessarily yet decide Kanon actually did it. But I see no reason why Battler would need to trust Beatrice's word any more than the servants', even if Beatrice can summon fancy red letters. One could surmise Beatrice might be honest because it'd make the game more interesting for her, but on the other hand she's a bloody murderer so what's a little lying if it amuses her by confusing Battler? I doubt she has any morals to begin with, anyway.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Without the red truth, you really don't have much of a game.
"Magic exists, I did it."
"Witches don't exist, any number of things could have happened."
Sure, Beatrice could have lied when she said she tells the truth in red, but that would be lame.

I think this episode helps explain a few things. Right now, I'm leaning towards Rosa as the culprit, at least for this particular game. We saw Rosa in the chapel with everybody else the night they died, which I think is super suspicious. Add that to the fact that she was the one who retrieved the chapel key (and was there when it was given to Maria by "Beatrice"!) and I think it's pretty easy to say Rosa killed the first 6, probably poisoning them first.

However, I doubt Rosa could do all of that alone, so she must have had one of the servants help set it up for her, as well as for the Jessica murder. You know Kanon didn't kill her because they liked each other, and I seriously doubt Shannon killed anybody here. The other 3 servants could have been involved, as none have alibis (neither does the doc, I think, but they needed at least a key, so maybe the doc is also in on it).

The scene with Kanon later suggests that Kanon did not actually die, but what about the red text? I'll argue that when Jessica died protecting him from the murderer, "Kanon" died. "Kanon" isn't his real name, right? And they made a big deal about that as Jessica was dying. I bet he threw away the name "Kanon" here and decided to resist. In this way "Kanon was killed in this room." This leaves Kanon available to come back later.

About what happened in the kitchen, we're going to have to wait and see what Battler actually hears about this situation. I can already think of a couple different scenarios though.

That's my theory so far, what do you guys think?

[Ryllharu]

I don't know if I'm ready to accept that family members aside from their own grandfather are killing them (or maybe Maria because she's so obsessed with it). Just because we saw a burnt body last time with six toes doesn't mean that it was Kinzo, and he is certainly alive right now as far as we know in this iteration.

However, I do like your name theory with Kanon and "Kanon's" death. I still can't think of a reasonable explanation about his appearance to the other servants, particularly given how much he hates Beatrice, but that would definitely get Beatrice around her own lie. She is free to twist those statements of truth as much as she wants, and Battler is not equipped to easily see through them because he simply doesn't know as much as she does about everything.

I'm still pissed he hasn't be pushing those statements harder, especially with some of the obvious ambiguities that exist within them.

[Buffalobiian]

Just to add this this Kanon stuff, the evil version had a blue blade, while the original used a red. All the "furniture" Beatrice has summoned previously used blue blades, discounting the Sins.

In that regard, I believe evil Kanon is summoned by Beatrice.

If we play with the whole "magic works if you believe", then this might indicate that all whose who saw evil Kanon were able to because they either believed Kanon was alive, or he was a culprit (despite what comes out of their mouth).

The former is much easier to believe, since if they assumed Beatrice had possession of Kanon's body, what use would she have for a dead one, and the reason to retrieve one corpse and not the other.

[Kraco]

One corpse and not the other:

Episode 10 - gg



- - - - - - - -





Edit: I give up. Not watching the series but believing in Battler and even the game between him and Beatrice. And also believing there's any trace of mystery to this show. It's just action horror. It's almost strange how the beginning of the show got people speculating and thinking but now it's getting totally and completely moot. Even Battler himself is giving up, although that's only the weakness of his personality speaking.

I'm also tired of Beatrice's red letters. Watching this episode I realised one simple thing about it as well: Beatrice's red letters might tell Beatrice is telling the truth - as far as she knows it. But exactly how is she supposed to know nobody ever made a private copy of some key for their own nefarious purposes? So, she could red letter there's only five keys, but in reality there could be six. She simply doesn't know of the sixth one.

[Ryllharu]

Beatrice's lovely cackles were a weak consolation for how disappointingly weak Battler is. While I did expect them to finally get a clue and start challenging Beatrice's riddle, giving up is such a waste. With any luck, he'll only get one more chance, because he sure isn't very entertaining anymore.

Then Shannon can take over as the protagonist! At least she has the will to stand up to Beatrice still.

For how ungodly annoying she has been, I really liked the look on Maria's face at 9:49.5. There's nothing but hate there. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if she was channeling Beatrice, rather than Kinzo. Rosa is an even bigger bitch than we ever thought, but I smile a bit every time she mentions wolves and sheep. Perfect reason for Maria to want Rosa dead along with everyone else, if only to get her "mother" back.

[Nadouku]

I really like how this "new" Battler believes in magic and everything that was setup by Beatrice. He also receives a kiss from Maria, which I found to be the most comforting piece from Maria herself. Anything other than her psychotic nature when Beatrice is mentioned, and Rosa... I don't even want to start with her. Natsuhi was even a better person last arc, so bring her back!

[shinta|hikari]

Natsuhi was actually a good person. Most of the older generation (if not all) are not. I think it runs in the blood.