Umineko no Naku Koro ni

[Ryllharu]

In any event, I noticed something I don't think enough people have remarked on so far, namely that Beatrice is a total babe for a cougar. I love her dress and her general style. I am especially fond of how she seems so fond of playing with her pipe while talking trash and cackling at the poor cast members.

I think that for all our recent disagreements, you and I can agree on one thing completely.

Beatrice is also a most excellent sadist. She is kind of creepy in her schoolgirl outfit. It lacks the refinement of her normal dress that fits in with all the odd and elaborate outfits that the family all has on.

Still, seeing how the story is again fully progressing from the start and with a new setting with Beatrice herself visibly present, I kind of fail to see how Battler and Beatrice's gamble is supposed to take place.

I see it as a game of chess. If it was just Battler trying to prove the murders from last time were possible as a human, it wouldn't be very fair to Beatrice. She has to be allowed to move her pieces as well. So while Battler gets to play it over with a bit of knowledge from the last time and a hardened resolve, Beatrice has made a preparatory strike by physically showing herself this time. Kanon and Shannon both know she 'exists,' and the adults are forced to admit that she is real. She simply arranged for them to meet her by giving the letter to Rosa.

But Battler isn't playing just by himself. Shannon cut a portion off Beatrice's amusement a bit by declaring that she wants nothing from Beatrice, that she will tempt her own fate, rather than relying on the supernatural. Also, not even hesitating or thinking about her social position, she accepted the ring immediately. I can't say I'd be surprised if Beatrice decided to discipline Shannon by killing George instead.


It was easier to see this time why Maria wants to believe in Beatrice and the Golden Land so much. Rosa is a bitch. She may, "come back" as Maria puts it, but it does really change that Maria's mother is completely bipolar, and deep down Maria must be miserable. She's putting all of her hope in Beatrice's existence and that the Golden Land will be a place she can happily live. Maria may act like a spoiled brat, but that doesn't excuse Rosa's behavior.

What I really don't understand is why Kanon is so completely obsessed with being furniture. Shannon has felt the same way, and has someone to support her...just like Kanon would if he only reached out. Instead, he's sealed himself into the idea that he's furniture, and for whatever reason, doesn't want to escape from that description.

[Kraco]

I see it as a game of chess. If it was just Battler trying to prove the murders from last time were possible as a human, it wouldn't be very fair to Beatrice. She has to be allowed to move her pieces as well. So while Battler gets to play it over with a bit of knowledge from the last time and a hardened resolve, Beatrice has made a preparatory strike by physically showing herself this time.

It's true that simply defending the first round wouldn't be fair for Beatrice - after all, she probably didn't plan it fully so that it would stand against somebody like Battler. However, I don't think Battler knows now everything he learned during the first round. Or do you reckon he knows already most of them will die horribly in a couple of days? Doesn't look like that.

This is essentially why the situation is analogous to monkey, typewriter, and Shakespeare. Battler has to prove something very significant not even knowing he has to prove it. Or maybe you mean he somehow only knows he absolutely zealously must deny Beatrice's magical properties without knowing the reason? I suppose that could work.

I don't think Shannon really has anything to do with this, though. It's more like random fluctuation present during different iterations, caused likely by the fact Beatrice's presence now happens to be more prominent. She believes Beatrice is a witch and is simply trying to be her own master despite of that.

[Ryllharu]

This is essentially why the situation is analogous to monkey, typewriter, and Shakespeare. Battler has to prove something very significant not even knowing he has to prove it. Or maybe you mean he somehow only knows he absolutely zealously must deny Beatrice's magical properties without knowing the reason? I suppose that could work.

I don't think Shannon really has anything to do with this, though. It's more like random fluctuation present during different iterations, caused likely by the fact Beatrice's presence now happens to be more prominent. She believes Beatrice is a witch and is simply trying to be her own master despite of that.

I agree, and I said, "a bit of knowledge." It was pretty obvious that he still didn't even know who Beatrice is, but he did seem to have a little more determination, mentioning he'd believe in her if she did something impossible. Once the murders start, I expect him to be a little more zealous than just saying he's going to turn the board around 30 times.

Shannon doesn't, directly. They're all playing against Beatrice, and Shannon may actually be more motivated to fight against Beatrice than this incarnation of Battler this time around. Like having a teammate that you don't know about.

[Kraco]

Shannon could indeed be more motivated (for now) if she considers Beatrice represents the old order (that makes Shannon furniture). However, I'm inclined to think her kind of resistance is of considerably less interest to Beatrice than Battler's. There must have been plenty of people during the history who didn't want to obey Beatrice but having someone who genuinely denies her core identity, not just her supremacy, must look worth the challenge (or lets say a game) even to an immortal.

[Buffalobiian]

Wait....this is confusing.

So Battler #2 is trying to figure out who kills who this time round, while Beatrice #2 is being played by Beatrice #1, but Battler #1 can only look on?

And the whole idea is for whichever Battler is playing to conclude that the murder in whatever iteration he's participating in is done via human means, while the first one goes unsolved?

This is beyond my comprehension, and if that above is the case, it feels kind of pointless.

[HARUHI 2009 SPOILER]

It's like Kyon trying to figure out what Haruhi wants to do, but he starts fresh every time while Haruhi keeps changing her mind.

[END SPOILER]

PS: I approve of Beatrice in school uniform.

[Pandadice]

beatrice in a school uniform?



nah, i still don't like her...

overall, this episode just.. wasn't that interesting for me. i just don't get the point of the series. maybe i just can't appreciate the artistic and genius story delivery that this series is executing.. i mean, i recognize it as a clever concept, but i'm just not drawn in while actually watching it.

mm how many episodes is this supposed to have? like 24 or something? if it's gonna be a 24+ ep series i might drop it now. but if it's just like a 12-15 ep i think i'll keep going, just for closures sake, since then i am already half way..

so does anyone know the ep count for this series?

oh and i just really don't like maria as a character.. it like they add in this child abuse to get us to feel bad for her and understand why she's super evil and twisted.. and i don't like it. one second shes getting beaten and i'm like "why did they put this in here??", and then the next scene she's talking about witches and doing her evil face/laugh and I'm asking "can they just take this character out entirely?" :\

[Nadouku]

So, Beatrice reveals herself this time around and almost everyone acknowledges her while the Beatrice from the past, along with past Battler, are trying to torture each other. Man, this is one complete pool of mind break.

[Buffalobiian]

@Pandadice: Umineko is scheduled to run for 26 episodes.

[enfant d'hiver]

I adored Higurashi, so this is certainly a series I am following. However, I confess to being a touch confused by the scene in ep.6 where Battler declared to Beatrice that he would conclusively prove as well as insist on her nonexistence... even while affirming his belief of it to the extent that he would actually carry on a conversation with her. Ah well. I suppose I shall understand it eventually.

(Or so I hope.)

Another thing I rather like about this anime - and please pardon me if someone has already mentioned this - would be the noticeable influences from Agatha Christie's classic novel, And Then There Were None. The absent (or shall we say 'mysterious'?) Mr. Owen finds his parallel in Beatrice, I suppose.

[Kraco]

I adored Higurashi, so this is certainly a series I am following. However, I confess to being a touch confused by the scene in ep.6 where Battler declared to Beatrice that he would conclusively prove as well as insist on her nonexistence... even while affirming his belief of it to the extent that he would actually carry on a conversation with her. Ah well. I suppose I shall understand it eventually.

I said a while ago I will ban the next person to say the magic word referring to an earlier series, but I'd feel bad banning a newcomer, so I'll let it slide this time, especially since the endless comparisons seemed to end back then.

Other than that, Battler isn't trying to deny the existence of somebody standing in front of him. He's just trying to prove Beatrice is not a witch and that the murders weren't performed with magic.

[enfant d'hiver]

To M. Kraco

Ah, thank you for the clarification on Battler. At any rate, my excuses for the reference to a separate series. I did not see that post, quite unfortunately, but duly note it now.

[Marik]

[Nipponsei] Umineko no Naku Koro ni OP Single - Kata Tsubasa no Tori [Shikata Akiko].zip

[Ryllharu]

Once More Unto the Breach

[gg] Umineko​ no Naku​ Koro​ ni​ - 08

[Pandadice]

rofl, what did i just watch? Kanons in the room giving her her asthma medication, and then beatrice summons a hoard of demon goat butlers with energy swords and kanon enters combat with them? WHAT!? rofl, that has to be the most ridiculous thing..

wait, no it got better when beatrice anthropomorphised two of the seven deadly sins into evil school girls who turned into spikes and stabbed kanon and whats-her-face.

ahaha.. i just.. i just can't take this seriously anymore.

okay, but on another note, when they all burst into the chapel and it shows the dead bodies, and their stomachs are blurred out? lol? after seeing that i just couldn't react seriously to the same scene of everyone running in and crying about their parents. not that the scene would have had any meaning anyways, since its the same thing that we already saw..

but, i must say that when Battler and Beatrice popped up in the chapel, in the paused-mode where they discuss the happenings, i think i finally got whats going on. and now i'm interested.. only.. i guess i might be a little interested, but i more just really hate Battler now as a character, for being so stupid and stubborn...

okay, but then in the end when she introduced the red-words rule, i definitely got interested then.

but at the end she said "if you deny magic then you have to admit it was one of your relatives" but why would he have to do that when she introduced herself as a physical guest in the mansion? it's clear that she killed them, he just has to figure out how she did it not using magic.

man, this episode seriously needed some Rose-beating-Maria time. everytime maria gets on the screen it just makes me want to turn it off.. i hope she's one of the first to die next round.. if there is a next round.

but really.. they're in a mansion and dude has to sleep in that chair?

[MasterOfMoogles]

but, i must say that when Battler and Beatrice popped up in the chapel, in the paused-mode where they discuss the happenings, i think i finally got whats going on. and now i'm interested.. only.. i guess i might be a little interested, but i more just really hate Battler now as a character, for being so stupid and stubborn...

You give up way too easily to the witch. All of the murders so far have been pretty easy to prove without magic. Hardly anybody has alibis during most of them. Especially that there is an extra person running around on the island.

You just have to assume that the magical scenes are not actually quite what happened. The witch obviously isn't going to show you the true scene, because then she would be disproved!

[Ryllharu]

You have to remember that the reason Battler is allowed to play this game is that he doesn't believe in her magic, and the others do. It's the same reason that Beatrice didn't kill Battler with her magic...she can't.

All of the others believe, especially Maria, Kanon, and Shannon. Jessica believed in her strongly as well, as soon as she found the room empty and read the letter, written in a way that Beatrice heavily implied she was using her powers. As long as that belief exists, Beatrice can kill them using "magical" means. She seems to be able to twist and augment reality as she sees fit. If Battler can prove that Beatrice did it through human means, the truth exists instead, be it Beatrice doing the killing or one of his relatives.

I'd have to go back and check, but I wonder how augmented the reality of the murders were when Battler was nearby or in earshot. Natsuhi died in a fairly common manner last iteration, simply getting shot in the forehead, and Battler was only on the other side of the door.

As for the format of the game, I definitely like this better than I thought. He's not just some barely aware revision of himself, he and Beatrice seem to have the versions of themselves in the iteration of the murders, and their other observer selves. The game pauses, they discuss, and move their respective pieces before the game continues. There is a lot more deduction involved, especially with the red text (that I presume must be a cute reference to the game).


By the way, I loved the cameo of Aki Toyosaki (Yui from K-ON, Koyoi from Hatsukoi) and Yoko Hisaka (Mio from K-ON) as Lust and Wrath.

[Xrlderek]

I wondered how they would implement the red text, they dealt with it nicely. Didn't like the censoring this episode though. It felt slightly fast paced too but other than that I really liked it.

[Kraco]

As for the format of the game, I definitely like this better than I thought.

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.

Well, that detail doesn't personally bother me at all, at least so far; I'm buying the format quite nicely (for convenience's sake).

The furniture scene was strange, though, no matter how you look at it. But at least it explained how exactly Beatrice does what she does to mutilate people without getting her dress dirty.

[Ryllharu]

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.

While I definitely considered that, I left it as this being Bernkastel's promised aid for Battler. I had assumed she was going to be reviving him over and over the way Beatrice remarked on Bernkastel's method of defeating Lady Lambdadelta, but now I wonder if this is what she meant. Battler may not believe Beatrice's magic is killing off his family members, but if Bernkastel is providing this aid then he may not have issue with it. We can't forget that she is watching this game too.

It certainly provides a contradiction though.

[Nadouku]

They actually censored something? Oh well... the scene with the goat butlers and Kanon was so hilarious that I forgot what I was watching for at first.