Umineko no Naku Koro ni

[MasterOfMoogles]

The show is definitely a mystery. It only no longer becomes a mystery if you give in to the witch and her fantasy. Battler is super-weak right now because he refuses to believe the family/servants has anything to do with the murders. If a fantastical 19th person actually did exist, then they do have magic powers because they couldn't have had the necessary keys. However, once you start thinking that maybe some of the family/servants are involved, it becomes easy to disprove the witch.

Regarding the red truth, the purpose of it seems to be so you can tell some of what actually happened when you're shown scenes that obviously did not happen as shown (no goat monsters are running around the mansion, obviously). If you don't trust the red truth, then there really is no basis for the mystery vs. fantasy debate (and it would be a super lame move by the writer).

Following on with my theory from last post:
At this point, I think Gohda is the strongest suspect for being Rosa's accomplice. He was last alone with Jessica and Kanon, and he probably could have helped Rosa set up the Halloween party as well as poison/kill the siblings.

So, "Kanon" comes in the door. He looked like "Kanon" at first, but he really wasn't. "Kanon" had died and Kanon's true self is now was out for blood to revenge Jessica. I'm going to guess he was pretending to be wounded, but maybe Gohda hurt him in the fight. I'm not sure why he would have attacked/killed Nanjo and Kuma (if that is what even happened), but after that, it seems like Gohda pinned him to the wall and Shannon got something to knock him out with (chloroform maybe?).

At that point, the 3 made up a story to tell the ohers. My guess as to why Gohda is so nervous is because he was supposed to have killed Kanon off. Shannon is probably crying because she is lying to George, and Genji is super-cool about the whole thing. Kanon is probably chilling tied up in some secret room at this point.

I feel like the letter is extra-suspicious, because who would have wrote it? Rosa couldn't have because it mentions the 2 corpses. None of the servants really seem surprised about the letter, and it has to be one of the 3 because of the keys (perhaps Shannon and Genji carried off knocked out Kanon and Gohda secretly did this?).

I don't have enough to piece together the motivations at this point. There are a ton of unanswered questions here, but there is definitely no witch involved. Don't give up so easily!

I'll have to wait to see what happens with George/Shannon before I decide what actually is happening there.

[Nadouku]

After reading this, I might have to renew myself and not give into the witch, like I was planning to. These recent episodes left me despairing over the fact that magic does indeed make these murder scenarios realistic, but now, I will have to double-think and "read beneath the board".

[Buffalobiian]

I was initially thinking Battler II was faking his belief in magic to get closer to the culprit, or clues to the culprit. I still think it's a possibility, but the odds look slim now that even Battler I is falling apart.

[Yukimura]

So we're supposed to not believe in magic? There's a chick who turns into butterflies and time has reset at least once. I don't see any point in denying magic except for the sake of being stubborn.

Anyway, where has the old man been all this time? If I remember correctly he didn't die with the first 6 this time, and even commented on that, but he has yet to be seen by the rest of the group right? And shouldn't the master of the household be carrying around an uberkey to his own mansion?

[Kraco]

I don't quite understand the format of this show if indeed one is not supposed to believe in magic. Why are we seeing all those crystal clear magic filled scenes then? The first time through was plausible considering that theory since we did see only the results of very fancy ways of accomplishing murders but no clear shots of goat head demons or other fantasy elements. What exactly are those scenes if they aren't happening?

[MasterOfMoogles]

The fantasy scenes are simply the magical version of the events that Beatrice claims happened. If she showed you what actually happened, it wouldn't make for much of a game, would it? She's already in such a terrible position, I can only imagine how bad it would be for her if she showed you the real events.

If you're really worried about how Batter can be seeing these events, you can argue that there is a non-magical method X of giving someone such visions and we just don't know what X is.

[Kraco]

Ho... So, in essence, what we have been seeing now during this second time through is not actually happening? It's just a vision, kind of like a simulation or a storyboard, that Beatrice composed and so all the fantasy elements are, objectively speaking, only extras that Beatrice added while Battler should be only concentrating on the final results and trying to explain how the stuff could have happened without goat head demons and other otherworldly elements.

Well, I suppose that could be it. But it still feels a bit like a stretch to be honest. There's disproportionally much focus on the magic and too little on any mundane explanations. But maybe that's only because Battler apparently doesn't have what it takes to see through it and offer any realistic explanations.

[MasterOfMoogles]

That's pretty much my current theory. And hey, don't diss Battler too much. Lots of people have already given up to the witch.

[shinta|hikari]

Could it be that Battler 1 can only see the events through the eyes of the Battler in the current story iteration? That would explain why he did not immediately believe in magic despite the repeated displays of supernatural events. Battler simply was never there when all those happened, and only saw the results like the closed room murders. This absolves him of being stupidly stubborn, but now makes him look weak for giving up despite the fact he has yet to personally see a supernatural event.

[MasterOfMoogles]

The Battler watching the game sees everything we do. The in-game Battler knows nothing of the metagame.

Battler is just being weak because he wants to blame it all on this 19th person instead of accepting that possibly someone he knows is a murderer.

[shinta|hikari]

Are you sure? Battler 1 has never mentioned anything supernatural, or any information that the Battler in-game does not know. All of his comments and deductions seem to be based from what Battler in-game has seen in that iteration.

If he can actually see black goats running around and still think it is not magical, Battler 1 must be retarded.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Meta-game Battler definitely sees everything we're shown. In ep 7 Beatrice shows herself in-game, and meta-Battler and meta-Beatrice talk about it. Game 2 Battler did not actually see Beatrice. (And I don't think she actually exists on the island.)

Meta-Battler is not retarded to deny the witch even after seeing fantasy scenes. If I show you a picture of the world being flat and tell you it is flat, should you believe me? I hope not. In much the same way, Battler should not believe everything the "witch" shows him.

[shinta|hikari]

Isn't the fact that he is being shown these things magical in itself? In fact, the entire game is magical, including the repeated iterations, red text, even both Beatrice and Battler 1's presence. Battler denying magic could only mean that he thinks he has gone insane and delusional, or there is some amazing scientific tool that can show him such illusions.

Showing me a map does not demonstrate the flatness of the world, since it is a mere representation. What Beatrice has done though, is very different. She has demonstrated that magic works, since the scenes with her and Battler cannot happen without magic. A better analogy would be, being taken into outer space in a space suit, and seeing the world is round, yet still insisting that it is flat, or even worse, that there is no outer space at all. That is exactly what Battler is doing now. That baseless stubbornness seems pretty stupid to me.

[MasterOfMoogles]

You give up way too easily to the witch. There could easily be X non-magical ways of showing Battler these visions, we just don't know what they are. Drugs, hypnosis, you name it. It is a devil's proof.

[shinta|hikari]

That is what is strange about it. The only reason we can doubt the existence of magic is because we can consider such possibilities. Battler on the other hand, has not shown any indication that he is suspecting such means. Instead, he seems to have completely glossed over the fact that he is in a reiterating game watching himself.

So now we have two possibilities. One, Battler does actually consider that what he is seeing is induced by something non-magical, but simply does not mention it or ponder about it for some reason, or two, he is an idiot. Until any proof is shown supporting possibility one, I am inclined to believe the possibility with less assumptions.

EDIT: I am still hesitant to actually consider drugs or hypnosis as a means for inducing such vivid, detailed, and complex scenarios. It is just implausible, especially hypnosis since Battler is a skeptic.

[depthcharge]

All this could just be Battler's imagination? Schizophrenia anyone?

[shinta|hikari]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that when I said that Battler might be insane.

[Pandadice]

ep 11 is out

[gg]​_Umineko​_no​_Naku​_Koro​_ni​_-​_11​_[83F4B471].mkv

[Xrlderek]

Spoilers about the episode below:





Great episode. No mystery/speculation at all(except Battler and Rosa suspecting each other), which is a little disappointing. Loved the grotesque scenes. Maria's promise was great. Good "fight" scenes. I thought the dialogue between the witches was slightly short but other than that I thought it was great. Beatrice is pretty awesome. Oh and there was no censorship. That Rudolf pie was disgusting.

The background music was definitely amazing.

[David75]

Umm, rubbed the wrong way, for some eps now.
I think I'm going to drop it.
Definately not what I like, seek, want.