Interesting episode, as Kinzo finally did something. As Battler suggests though, it seems all of these scenes are fantasy.
Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Genji, Natsuhi, all dead. An interesting mix this time. The obvious finger points at Krauss being the murderer, as all of the siblings are dead. If we assume that Kinzo is also dead, as Battler suggests, then Krauss becomes even more suspicious because of his scenes with Kinzo.
It's interesting this time that our reliable narrator is experiencing things by telephone. And since we get no red text, who knows if all of those people are even dead.
The idea that the real Kinzo's was dead opened up the possibility that someone outside of the family was really the one murdering everyone. Battler doesn't want to accept that possibility, and won't allow it.
Even as awful as most of the adults are, most wouldn't really want to go around killing their siblings and nephews and nieces. Even Eva's was more of a split personality thing. She resisted the influences for a long time. She was struggling with it. Even if in the end she really was the one doing it in that scenario, she felt at least a little guilty about it. Her son did end up getting killed, and Ange's flashback (within her flashforward) seemed to indicate that Eva was having a very tough time.
It seems like the plan will be to pit the cousins against each other, with Maria already out for blood. Quite the shift from them usually trusting each other implicitly. Jessica can speak with her father, and Kyrie is the only other living parent in there. He may be forced by "Kinzo" to give her evil encouragement.
As for Maria, I won't say that Rosa didn't deserve any of that, she is certainly one of the most selfish and terrible mothers out there, but I didn't really find myself all that surprised that Maria-Beatrice turned out to be exactly like Rosa. She was just as unsatisfied, just as sadistic, just as self serving, and just as verbally cruel.
It's been a long and strange ride with those two over the series. First I hated Maria, and was hoping that Rosa would smack her. Then she actually did...and didn't stop. Right as Battler and the rest of Maria's cousins watched. What Rosa did to her made us feel very uncomfortable, because while Maria deserved it, Rosa took it too far. Then they redeemed Rosa a bit, by making her care for Maria, determined to save and protect her above all else. We even saw her finally being a good mother, giving Maria gifts, treating her nicely, thinking the better of smacking Maria around for no reason. Then we finally saw the "truth." Rosa makes Maria take care of herself, and then punishes her anyway if Maria interferes with Rosa's personal affairs, which always take precedence. Rosa is constantly embarrassed by Maria for no good reason. So when Maria finally gets the ability to fight back, she too takes it way too far.
Took the words right out of my mouth Ryll. My support always see-saws between the two to the point where I sympathise with both, but can't say either is right anymore.Originally Posted by Ryllharu
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
So, I don't think Rosa is as bad as she is made out to be in this episode. It is made pretty clear that all of what happened with the torture was a dream Maria was having. I bet Rosa actually does love her child and wouldn't say all of that, but "I wish you were never born!" is what Maria fears, because Rosa goes about it the wrong way.
Not trying to make light of how Rosa treats her child, but I think it goes both ways. Breaking her imaginary friend was pretty harsh.
The further along we go, the more I think that Maria is key to many of the murders. She has been left alive for 2 out of the 3 games, and game 3 seemed to be "the one that went wrong". Game 3 was the only one where Rudolf survived the first twilight. The only one where the gold was definitely found, and the only one where we know for sure that Eva was killing people. Game 3's first twilight was also EXTREMELY different from all of the other first twilights. It looks like game 1, 2, and now 4's first twilights were all done in such a way as to scare people with brutal murders, while game 3's is done in a planned out thoughtful way.
Well, it seems Kinzo has a better role in this part instead of being toasted. I actually don't care about what Maria does to Rosa since it was a pretty satisfying event to watch.
I am training in the shadows.
Currently playing: All of your games, probably.
How did I not realize last episode that Gaap's dress was completely split on that one side?!
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What did the handwriting match prove to Ange? That Maria wrote all those letters, that the entire journal could be faked, or something else. Also, was it just me, or did she see Sakutarou in that bag at the boatman's place? If so, does that mean...what does that mean? Maria has been alive all this time, tricking both Eva and Ange for 12 long years? Or that all the hopes that Ange based her life on reading Maria's journal have been a lie? Too many questions!
Jessica's stand didn't really do anything for me, but George was badass. Quite a contrary to the usual devoted but helpless loser we're used to. It might have been a bit hard to swallow that he's had such proficient martial arts training and has not used it in any of the prior iterations, but that surprisingly didn't really detract from his badass resolve. Tricking Gaap into thinking they had created another monster, only to immediately betray them, well played. His words about how monarch's display their strength convinced me completely. I can see how his sudden burst of confidence and resolve could be viewed as magic to Gaap and her kind. His words earlier about how the whole world becomes his enemy as Shannon's husband struck a chord too, well spoken.
The one good thing Jessica caught was that Ronove is far more closely related to Genji Ronoue than we might have believed earlier. It puts a very different spin on his death here, as well as the showdown the pair had in a prior iteration. There is certainly now room for Ronove to be Genji, at least in a manner of speaking. They are both Genji. Here, "Genji" was killed, leaving only "Ronove", a highly loyal servant to Goldsmith (and Beatrice's forces) and no one else. "Genji" and he have fought before the same way that Eva was struggling against Eva-Beatrice, her own monster within. While "Genji" cares deeply for the entire family, "Ronove" is loyal only to the murderer. When one "dies," Genji remains alive, but no longer conflicted. That would leave plenty of opportunities for that Sealed Room mysteries to be resolved, as well as eliminating a need for the non-existent 6th (or 7th?) Master Key. So while it may be true that "Genji" is not betraying anyone, "Ronove" certainly may be.
I'm really looking forward to Battler's Question and response. He doesn't have any easily exploited romantic or familial love here. He didn't even mention Ange until the last arc. Way to forget about your own incredibly adorable sister. I suppose they might press him on whether or not he loved Kyrie as a mother since she isn't his by blood. The answer would be obvious then, she taught him his favorite catchphrase about chessboards after all.
If anything disappointed me, it would be that this arc seems to have forgotten about the game between Battler and Beatrice. He's got the blue truth now, and he hasn't even questioned a single one of these recent events.
tl;dr
Maria not quite dead(?) / Ange's hopes dashed?
George = Badass.
Genji = Ronove?
Battler, where have you been lately?
Great episode in my opinion. Fight scenes were good too. I also believe it was Sakutarou in the bag. I think it was alluded to earlier in the series that Eva had taught George martial arts, so it wasn't that out of the blue for me, but that scene might have been omitted in the anime, I can't remember for sure. The scene was definitely awesome.
I think this round will be strange to analyze. I love how the murders were set up carefully the first rounds, and now they just killed the first 6 almost immediately.. I don't think the first day is even over yet(not completely sure). Looking forward to Battler turning the chessboard over!
Last edited by Xrlderek; Thu, 12-03-2009 at 06:14 PM. Reason: .
It certainly was a badass episode. Jessica's scenes felt weak compared to George's, mainly because her sudden turn-around felt a bit forced and less powerful than George's straight-up determination. She never spoke much of her father before, or her ambition to take over as the Head, so love -> piecing fists was a bit of a stretch for me.
I'd love to see how Maria and Battler fair in their own rounds. If Eva taught George martial arts, it implies Eva knew martial arts in the first place, giving her much more killing power than we've been lead to believe. All those stakes being driven into the skull may bot be so physically impossible after all.
I'm a bit confused as to what purpose these repeated murders serve. I'm quite capable of just "going with the flow" when I'm watching the show. When I think about it afterwards however, it becomes confusing for me to conclude exactly which iteration are they trying to solve. Common sense tells me it's the first one.
That bag certainly contained something yellow, in pieces, with a tad of orange which points to none other than Sakutaro.
I was taking Ronove = Genji's brother quite literally for some reason, but after reading Ryll's theory, I'm completely sold. It's particularly convincing that Ronove called Genji his "vessel".
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Ronove = Genji seems to be pretty obvious at this point. This also gives us a way for "Genji" to "die" and not really be dead in the other games, similar to my theory about Kanon.
For Sakutarou being at the sailor's house, I would guess there are a couple possibilities.
One possibility seems to be that Rosa did all the design work and either submitted it to her company at some point or someone found her old designs. Eventually they mass-produced them.
If we want something more meaningful, it might be that Rosa actually repaired it and was planning on giving it back to her later. She brought it to the island and left it on the guy's boat, or something. This would mean that Rosa really did love Maria.
For the handwriting comparison, she seemed to comparing against the fancy cursive, which doesn't make much sense considering there was nothing with letters on the envelope. Though, looking at that page, I have a hard time believing Maria wrote all that pretty cursive (is it Latin? French? Italian?). I feel like "Beatrice" wrote stuff in Maria's book, and maybe she was confirming that "Beatrice" also wrote these letters. That seems to make the most sense.
Nobody has really brought up the money yet, which is quite an interesting development. Apparently Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Rudolf? (if Ange got it?) all got bank security deposit boxes sent to them.
I'm pretty much set on Nanjo being involved with almost all of the murders, so that makes sense. Kumasawa, I could see being bribed as well, and she is also part of the "fantasy" with her counterpart Virgilia.
The question is why would Ange get one? It's also interesting that Rudolf dies early in all except the game that has so many other oddities.
So, Genji = Ronove, Kumasawa = Virgilia, I wonder who Gaap is supposed to represent? Maybe Rosa, or Eva? If Eva went to go see George, and he picked #3, I could see her being angry enough to fight him. And since she taught him martial arts, even more the match.
[gg] Umineko - 24
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Does this mean that Ange and Battler aren't actually related, and she can live out her brother-complex without guilt?
This episode didn't really do too much for me. There wasn't even a 1998 section with Ange. I was really looking for confirmation that she found a repaired Sakutarou in that plastic bag. It only added a few questions here and there.
Battler and Beatrice's prior relationship: She's obviously lying again. If someone as dense as Battler saw (from that far away no less) that her eyes said he did something to her, and he doesn't remember it, but she's staying tight lipped on it. He obviously hurt her even further by not remembering it, whatever it is. Perhaps if he did remember, Beatrice's real identity would be all too easy for him to determine, if she is real at all.
For some reason, seeing Jessica's face get kicked off got to me a bit more than the prior murders have. There was just something about it, aside from the unreality of kicking someone's face off. The more simple the deaths in this series, the more gruesome they feel.
I get the feeling more and more that the one Battler and Ange should be facing off with isn't Beatrice, but Maria. She believes in Beatrice's existence more than anyone in her mission to escape reality and find a happier life. She's also the most unhappy, so she needs her to exist more than anyone else. I wonder if even when Battler defeats Beatrice, or Lambda gives up on her, that Beatrice won't really disappear. I think Maria is acting as a lynch pin for Beatrice to exist in this place. Particularly because she always escapes harm, the only exception being when Eva was in charge.
I usually don't like to complain about how an anime compares to the respective visual novel, but they really cut a lot of scenes and changed things.. I won't comment further until the series is over, because they might have just moved stuff to later on, hopefully.
There is one thing I feel could be important though, in the VN, when Jessica was on the phone with Battler, she explained how her corpse would look. Not sure why they cut that. I don't really consider this a spoiler, as I don't see how they could manage to include it later.
As for the mystery, both Kyrie and Jessica are insisting on the culprits not being human, which is suspicious.
Other than that, the episode felt too rushed to really make me feel anything. Beatrice was great this episode though.
I would probably hold back on going into great detail on how these event played out differently. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a second season of this, at least given how little they seem to have gotten into the 1998 stuff with Ange. I haven't (and won't) play the game, so I don't know if we're really close to the end or not, but given what they did with [the series which we cannot directly name], I'm guessing there will be a second season sometime in the near future. If it isn't shown here, it may show up then.
You're probably better off posting the differences in your VN thread.
Fair point, I will do that instead. They did include a "fixing" arc in Higurashi after all, they may do the same here.
You're suggesting we might get an Umineko no Naku Koro ni Kai? That can't be a bad idea.
I wonder if there was a point to testing George and Jessica. They never said if they passed the test, nor did they see how well Battler and Maria fared before killing off people. Were they going to kill the rebellious one regardless?
If so, then it seemed like they wanted a puppet rather than a new head.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
They just didn't seem too fond of their answers. Jessica was a fail from the start, but Gaap accepted George's answer before he appended it by deciding to kill her first, which pissed her off.
Maria passed easily. I'm guessing her question was
1. Herself 2. Rosa 3. Everyone else
I bet she answered without any hesitation. Maybe she even suggested 2 and 3.
Goldsmith said he was surprised at how much she was like him, and I imagine he didn't expect her to be so brutal for her young age.
Very suspicious that everyone is trying hardcore to convince Battler of magic this time around. It is also interesting that the epitaph is completely ignored. It's interesting how even in the fantasy scenes, basically everybody was shot in the head with a gun.
Since Battler didn't witness any of these events, who knows what really happened, or if people died when it was suggested they did, if they died at all.
Since Battler could not say he was Asumu's son, but he could say that Ushiromiya Battler's mother was Asumu, then that could mean a couple things. First off, there is a 2nd Battler! Second, is Battler2 even necessarily a boy? I think it leaves it open. In which case, maybe in-game Beatrice is Battler2?
Battler actually witnessed a real person he didn't know this game. Unless it was one of the girls dressing up and doing some pretty good acting (Eva or Rosa could probably pull it off), this means there is definitely someone else running around this game.
I have a feeling that the majority of the murder sprees are for Maria's sake. Assuming Kinzo is dead at the beginning, then perhaps the servants are carrying out his will and trying to pick the heir?
The shocking revelation of what "Uuuuu~" means!
[gg] Umineko - 25
I certainly have my doubts that "Uuuuu~" repeatedly will make someone happy, but it's the thought that counts I guess. Maybe it's worked in the past.
Toxin was a newly introduced term that got a few mentions. I don't have a clue what it is, only that it might be the key we're looking for in unraveling Beatrice's magic.
No idea how this will all be wrapped up in 24mins next time.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
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