summoning is space/time, that's not one of the elements, it's probably closer to pain's gravity move, but summoning isn't a bloodlimit (though it uses blood).
summoning is space/time, that's not one of the elements, it's probably closer to pain's gravity move, but summoning isn't a bloodlimit (though it uses blood).
Do you realize that you get dumber every time you post? You have possibly the worst reading comprehension out of anyone on these forums. Somehow, you almost always manage to take what someone says, confuse yourself with it, and interpret it as something that usually isn't even close to its intended meaning.Originally Posted by poopdeville
Now, allow me to attempt to enlighten you, even though you probably won't be able to grasp one bit of what I say.
I didn't ask why people assume that new abilities "outside of the 6 elemental chakras" are bloodline limits. I asked why people have such a fascination with bloodlines that they want to assume every character has one or that every ability we haven't seen yet is one. In other words, why are people such fanboys for bloodline limits that they want every character to have one and every ability to be one?
(edit: and just so we're extra clear; its a hypothetical question. I'm not really interested in peoples' personal opinions as to why they have a hard-on for bloodline limits)
And I’m fully aware of Kakashi’s explanation, and if you had any reading comprehension you would realize that his explanation is actually referenced by my post and not contradicted by it.
Here it is again:
A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.
Not really sure how to make that any clearer; that seems pretty cut and dry to me. But, maybe Kakashi can explain it for you better: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/25/14/
Now, going back to Sam’s post (to which mine was in response), just because Nagato can use all of the elements does not mean he would be able to use the bloodline limits that we have seen. If he has a bloodline limit, it would be the Rinnegan. He would not be able to use other limits, such as Haku’s ice jutsus or Kimimaro’s bone jutsus because those jutsus were part of their bloodline (hence why it is called a bloodline limit) and Nagato does not share their bloodline.
Once more:
A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.
And as Archangel said, anytime a bloodline limit has appeared in the manga, it has been explicitly stated as such. There is no reason to assume a bloodline limit.
So, as usual, I must remind you to please think before you post.
Last edited by Sidnne; Sat, 05-09-2009 at 10:03 AM.
Sorry, I want to change the focus for a bit...
I understand what Pain went through to come to his answer, but what if, he hadn't gone through these things, would it change his prospective? What I mean is, if he creates his 9 tails weapons (using all nine beasts) and is able to use it as a deterent, why is this idea so far fetched. In fact that's exactly what we are doing in our own world today and have been since WW2. The fact we are going wow, what a nut job when we look at Pain is almost comical, when this is exactly how our society developed. When we go to war its called a peace keeping mission or Nato mandate. In fact we are at a war on terror, not actually against any country in particular. Its a technicality I know, but after the arms race, and everything that occured in between the thirst for war has gone away, and only those countries that do not have the capibilbity to blow each other away with a press of the button dare engage each other...
It terms of realistic solutions, even though my argument may not be the best presented, and not saying that it is the best solution availible, but Pain's method is the one our world in fact employs. I had actually dismissed his idea because I thought he was out there, but then it just occured, maybe not...
So if we're to say that Konoha is the USA, would that make Obama our Kakashi. Bush or Cheney as Danzou. Bin Laden as Nagato/Pain. Who's Naruto?
Sarah Palin
The way we came about our Nuclear weapons (deterrent) is completely different from Pain's way though. The parallel that would work would be if every country had a different weapon that they could use as a deterrent and then someone went around and took those weapons from those countries to form one super ultra weapon using those technologies. Clearly that is not how the world is.
I see the point you're making, but the only similarity between the real world and the Narutoverse is that deterrence is becoming a focus. The world in Naruto BEFORE Pain came into the picture is closer to our world. With the Bijuu's representing Nuclear weapons.
Disclaimer: I am just trying to clear up a potential misconception I percieved.
I believe you could make this clearer by not using ambiguous wording. Your use of "A bloodline limit" could easily be interpreted as "Any bloodline limit" which, in the first use of the phrase, could lead to a seemingly false conclusion, based on other evidence in the manga. I believe the Sharingan, Byakugan, and Kimimaro's bone ability are all acknowledged as BLs. These abilities demonstrate that not all BLs necessarily involve the blending of two types of elemental chakra into a new type of chakra. As you have pointed out it was also stated that the ability to blend elemental chakra into a new type is something that is only possible via a BL. If you take these two facts together and try to derive a theory on what a Bloodline Limit is from both of them you might come up with something like this: "A Bloodline Limit is an ability or attribute that someone not born with the inherent potential for can not 'learn' through mere practice or study or training."
This theoretical definition would support both unique physical abilities (seeing chakra, hyper perception, 360 degree vision, manipulating your bone growth rate, etc) and unique chakra manipulation abilities (Ice, Wood, etc) as BL's. It should also allow for something like Kakashi's seemingly contradictory possession of a Bloodline Limit despite not being of the proper bloodline. Taking into account that the Sharingan's abilities are properties of the eyes themselves (since Kakashi can use them) then one might theorize that the actual BL of the Uchiha clan is the ability of their bodies to develop (and perhaps efficiently support the use of) the Sharingan. In the same way Kimimaro's BL would be the ability for his body to manipulate and support the manipulation of his bones. As far as I can tell this theory doesn't contradict anything seen so far in the manga and more importantly doesn't seem to leave out anything that has been directly acknowledged as being a BL.
Other than that I am inclined to agree with Siddnne about the Rinnegan's omni-elemental usage not giving access to elemental blending abilities traditionally associated with bloodline limits. My impression is that a Rinnegan users chakra has an equal affinity for all six elemental types making mastery of any type no more difficult for them than anyone with a natural affinity for that element (possibly even easier than a normal person with an affinity). My personal theory about the Rinnegan in general is that the Rinnegan powers have nothing to do with the users eyes themselves unlike the Sharingan and Byakugan. I think the ring look is just a side effect of the true ability which is possessing a special kind of chakra with lots of abnormal properties. If you considering the way the multiple bodies were explained and the seemingly unique techniques attributed to the Rinnegan which have no obvious correlation with the actual eyes it seems to make a lot of sense.
Last edited by Yukimura; Sat, 05-09-2009 at 08:55 PM.
The issue with the whole Pein Vs USA thing is that Pein is trying to achieve world peace and admits to using evil means to do it, whereas the USA is actually on an colonial campaign in the world by utilising evil means and not admitting to it. Pein williningly reveals his motivations, whereas for the USA you have to analyse what is going on.
Okay, the USA and world politics is a perfectly good discussion...but this doesn't seem like the best place for it. I don't see how you can have a good discussion on world politics using Naruto as the foundation of the discussion. So, although a good discussion in and of itself, it probably doesn't belong in a Naruto Chpt. 446 thread.
Sidnne, I like what you had to say, and it was worded well, but aren't you being just maybe a teensy bit harsh on poopdeville. I mean, he's not exactly doing it to piss you off on purpose (is he?).
And as far as the bloodline stuff, I wouldn't expect someone like Pein to have physical bloodline limits like extra-special bones, regenerative properties, or anything like that. But I would expect him to have maybe several bloodline limits that involve a combination of two elemental jutsus. I only say this because the original Rinnegan sage must have been able to use many of these bloodline techniques since he, himself, was the one who created all the jutsus in the first place, correct? If he was good enough to use all the the elementals at a high level, but not combine them, it would be similar to Lee, who is an extraordinary ninja, yet cannot use any ninjutsu.
so I think that Pain is definitely gonna die at the end of this... and then Tsunade is going to die, but maybe she'll get a volume dedicated to her as well? i dunno. I don't really think that kakashi is dead.. seeing as how they brought Hinata back and all. but the one line Naruto had when he first popped back from toad-land, where he's like "this chakra.. does that mean that kakashi is.." and they're like "yeah..".
but, what if they recycled old story elements, and had Tsunade use some kind of healing jutsu thing to bring Kakashi back in place of her own life? i could definitely see that happening..
you know what would be really cool? what if Danzo takes over using root after tsunade dies, and then he turns the village into some kind of oppressed totalitarian state? and then the younger ninja/main kids each choose either to stay and work for him or to branch off as a sort of anti-government group which becomes it's own separate entity/village and Naruto leads it with guidance from Kakashi, and Shikamaru. like half the kids stay with Danzo though, like Ino, Kiba, Tenten, Neji all stay.
oh, and Sasuke joins Naruto too, so like Naruto and Sasuke work together to take down the totalitarian state that is Konoha.
that would be super cool. but what would happen with Akatsuki?
their leader is dead, half their members are dead.. they've got like all but 1 of the Bi-juu (kyu-bi), so what's gonna happen to them? what if this new totalitarian Konoha tries to take them all out? and then takes all of the bi-juu for Konoha! since Akatsuki loses their leader, they're in chaos and start a lot of in-fighting, which lets Konoha take them out easier. awman! then it uses all of them to become the top power over all the countries, and what Naruto and Sasuke are trying to do is steal the bi-juu and take them and give them to the other countries like they used to be.
dude! that'd be such an awesome way to take the manga!
user posted image
remind me again why Tsunade is going to die...
how old are you btw? your thoughts seem rambled and a bit disorganized, like a little kid with ADD, but it seems like you've really thought about this a lot. When you talked about what would happen to Akatsuki, you probably shouldn't have incorporated what might have happened if the other thing had happened to happen. But that is a good point. If Pein is gone, then the group might be done, so wouldn't Tobi have to reveal himself so the group won't break apart?
Tsunade has to die because the Sannin have to go away so that the "next generation" can take over. Oro is gone and with him gone Sasuke has 'leveled up' as demonstrated by his battle with Itachi, Jiraiya is gone and with him gone Naruto has 'leveled up' as shown by his battle with Pain, if Sakura is ever to truly 'level up' Tsunade will have to die and then Sakura will have to do something to show that she has inherited her legacy.
Frankly I was surprised that Pain didn't kill Tsunade before Naruto showed up but one way or another I think she is going to die. Pandadice's theory about her using a die to bring someone back to life jutsu on Kakashi would be an effective way to do it, but whatever the circumstances, I think she's going to be gone before the year is out.
All the remaining members of Akatsuki not only know Tobi's identity but they all seem to be loyal to him, and the other members of Akatsuki are replaceable.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
sorry, it was late last night, and i was tired and should'a been in bed at least 2 hours before i wrote that..
i hadn't actually put much thought into it, at all. i was having a discussion with a friend about the newest chapter (minutes before i posted that), and then I was like "man.. this is all just pain backstory.. i don't care about this. I wanna see what will happen to the village". and then i started just throwing ideas out, and this is where i ended up, and then I thought "i should post this at gotwoot.."
anyways, out to Mothersday lunch.
user posted image
As I've said before, many, many chapters ago, I'm convinced that Tsunade is already dead or dying.
The last time we saw her was when her hands shriveled up when Naruto started fighting Pein. Every other character has appeared since then. I imagine that the next time we see her will be with a bunch of people, including Sakura, standing over her as she uses her last breath to tell Naruto that he will be a great Hokage. Either that or she will use the last bit of her energy to revive Kakashi and then fall over dead immediately following that.
There seems to be a tradition of Hokage's dying everytime Konoha is attacked. The 4th "died" when Kyuubi attacked, The 3rd died when the Sand and Oro attacked, and now the 5th will have died when Pein attacked. And each of them died making a sacrifice; Tsunade's being to use up her energy to protect everyone from Pein's explosion.
No, this has been going for a few months now. He seems to be on a mission to try to contradict everything I say, even though he usually doesn't understand what it is thats being said. I usually just ignore him, but I had just woken up and was irritable when I read his reply.Sidnne, I like what you had to say, and it was worded well, but aren't you being just maybe a teensy bit harsh on poopdeville. I mean, he's not exactly doing it to piss you off on purpose (is he?).
Last edited by Sidnne; Sun, 05-10-2009 at 01:39 PM.
He's declared war
Apparently Poopdeville just plain doesn't like us. Mostly just me, and he sees you as an Abdula supporter so it can't be helped. I guess you're collateral damageWell that seems to be his rationale, so don't make a big deal out of it.
Anyway...........
Everybody knows my thoughts on the whole Tsunade thing so I don't think I need to mention that yet again. I'll say that she has redeemed herself a bit though but like Yuki said, she has to die.
That is what I first thought when Jiraiya was fighting Pain and the Rinnegan was first introduced so naturally I agree. However I seem to recall Jiraiya mentioning that the Rinnengan actually had doujutsus at some point. But since I couldn't seem to find the chapter where it was actually mentioned I think it might have just been a mistranslation that was later corrected.
Still whatever technique Nagato used to kill the Hidden Stone Chuunin here and to kill those leaf ninjas here could very well have been a doujutsu.
Last edited by Abdula; Sun, 05-10-2009 at 09:30 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
That's a good point, Abdula. Chances are that, if he used some elemental technique, you might have seen evidence of it in the surrounding area; however, all we see is dead bodies on the floor (♪let the bodies hit the floor...).
Does anyone have a strange feeling that it's going to end up like this: Pein's hidden power is kind of like a Jinchiruuki (spl?) and he and Naruto are really alike. People were frightened of Nagato's power and looked at him with those eyes. Then Naruto and Gaara, I mean Pein, will truly understand each other.
Doujutsus or not Pain is finished
He used up enough chakra that it caused internal hemorrhage and he's dealing with a sage/fox powered naruto
I won't say he doesn't have a last Ace up his sleeve but i very much doubt it will do him much good now
Jiraiya/Hanzo clone...it's coming. But I thought we agreed that Naruto wasn't going to kill him because he's going to truly understand him and all and bring peace to the world. If he dies, it will be because he can't get a medical specialist there in time to save him. His last words will be along the lines of "I regret--cough--what I've done up until now. Naruto--cough--you saved me, and now I truly under--cough--stand what Jiraiya said . I'm sorry Naruto, it's all up to you now. But--cough--here's a little secret about Akatsuki to help you...[insert secret] Farewell...I'm sorry...Yahiko."
Last edited by Sam98034; Mon, 05-11-2009 at 11:59 PM.
I didn't agree with anything ...
And Kishimoto has been pleasantly surprising me with these latest chapters so i'll have confidence that he won't fuck up the whole arc with such a shitty ending
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