I can see her staying sharp like that, but with the ulterior motive of making Kusuda a cooler guy. I don't know how honest she was before when she was repeating that guys are all about looks, but I don't see her suddenly making a 180 turn and now thinking looks don't matter at all. She might try to affect Kusuda in a way that will make him more handsome.
@Yuki - Like I said, Kei said too much in that instance, but during the other times, they even out quite well. That is precisely the reason Kei felt guilty when she insulted Kusuda about the gloves. It is not like their usual exchanges.
In your 2nd to the last post, you seem to make Kei the bad guy (girl), and she was, but only for this episode. The rest of the time, she and Kusuda are just verbally jousting as always. She isn't taking advantage of him or anything.
If Kusuda had said what he usually says to Kei to some other girl, he will probably get slapped. Is he then taking advantage of Kei's lenience?
Peace.
EDIT @above: A big part of why I see Kei as the 'bad' one is because of her (initial) arrogant, shallow, superior attitude. Arrogance is a really big turn off for me (unless it's sufficiently backed up by something I respect as worthy of it). Kei dug herself into a hole for me in the first few eps with her looks, looks, looks attitude combined with her strong showing of self-confidence in that attitude. In short she came across as unreasonably arrogant at first so that's what I expected of her.
It always seemed like her battles with Kusuda stemmed from him naturally clashing with her personality. Since I don't respect the foundations of that personality I would like to see it get knocked down a few pegs. I wouldn't mind a less arrogant Kei who still maintained her a snarky side but didn't exude such a strong "You are beneath me!!!" aura. I naturally feel supportive of Kusuda for standing up to and pushing back against Kei's personality because I feel like he is the only one capable of molding Kei into someone I could actually respect. In his interactions with Kei he feels more like a tool to bring Kei down to Earth than anything else (like a real person) and for that I am biased towards being more forgiving of his behavior, as long as it chips away at the pedestal I perceive her to be standing on. In episode 6 I think he got a few huge whacks and she just might to a point where I like her come ep 7.
As for Kusuda interacting this way with another girl, if he were mean/derogatory to a girl with a personality that I didn't feel warranted being knocked down a few pegs I would be on her side in a heartbeat. I also don't ever think girls slapping guys is appropriate but that's a whole other topic.
@Kraco: I don't think Kusuda could choose to not like her any more than Kei could choose to not like him when she tried to talk herself out of it. The choice is in indulging or not indulging in their desires for one another. Of course, this show being what it is I wouldn't expect any of the characters not to indulge in their desires given the chance which is why I don't see it as a real choice now that the feelings are out in the open from both parties.
@tsundere fans in general: What are your reasons for finding tsunderes desirable to watch (if you have them and are willing/able to articulate them)? Does anyone else have anything more concrete than "they are cute" or "they make me feel positive feeling X"? Rhyl's post did a great job of breaking down tsundere behavior but didn't really address why the behavior had a positive effect on him. Kraco and Buff you also seemed to stop at just stating that the events of the episode made you happy but, is there more 'why' behind your feelings? I can think of some possibilities for why you all might feel the way you seem to but guesswork is no substitute for actual first hand accounts.
Last edited by Yukimura; Thu, 05-21-2009 at 01:13 PM.
While I did not enjoy the Kei moments as much as the others do, I am also a Tsundere fan. However, unlike Ryll, I don't like the current take on the Tsundere or the 80-20 golden proportion. I am more of a traditionalist. Let me explain in more detail.
Tsundere is originally a term to describe a girl that at first acts coldly towards a person (the tsun part), but then becomes very affectionate after certain events or whatnot (the dere part). This is the type of Tsundere that I like, which is why I love Touka and Octavia, particularly because they start out as enemies (can't get more tsun than that) then become allies/wives. Haruhi is also a good example, that is if she ever gets to the Dere phase (I'm pretty sure she will though). Oh, and lets not forget C.C. <3.
Now, Tsundere is used to describe girls who act opposite to their feelings, like Kei. So the Tsun becomes the outside shell, and the Dere is the inside sincere emotions. I generally do not like these types (particularly the ones that act rude, or arrogant), which is why I despise all Rie Kugimiya characters.
As to why people like Tsunderes, I like them (the first type) because it gives the main character a sense of achievement, of being able to win over a previously cold girl's feelings instead of having a "childhood friend" or "onee-san love" setup.
The Tsun part usually has the power balance in a relationship tipped completely towards the tsundere, but at the dere phase, that shifts completely to the other side. This also gives the main character a chance to shine, so all the better.
As to why I sometimes like the 2nd type of Tsundere, like with Kagami and Mio... First, they don't act like bastards even when facing an embarrassing situation or expressing their Dere feelings.
Second, I feel like I am privy to a certain weakness when I become aware of their Dere side underneath all the pretend coolness, and feel much closer to the character. This also gives the feeling that you want to protect the character, either because she is actually very weak and has to protect herself by being all Tsun, or because she actually has a good reason to act cold and collected (like loyalty, a dream, or wanting to protect friends/family, ie Saber), which one may come to admire.
Third, I like sharp contrasts in character, but this is a circumstantial reason and also applies to Yanderes etc.
Lastly, similar to my reason for liking the 1st type of tsundere, I like the moments when they are teased and drop their cool exterior because it feels like the usual power balance is tipped towards the teaser (usually the main character), or maybe even the viewer in some cases.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 05-21-2009 at 02:14 AM.
Peace.
Saber isn't tsundere, though. She was never hostile towards Shirou. She just didn't want to be a woman before being a king (or thought she didn't want to). Rin was the tsundere of that story.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Aside from that, a very good post, Shinta. I don't have amazingly much to add to that. I have always loved stories that are mainly about something else but heavily involve a romance. You could say, in a certain sense, that breaking through the tsun of a tsundere is a small adventure in itself for the main character, which makes it look very worthwhile. Add to that how the tsun->dere change is already clear character development, and you have a couple of good points.
I don't have anything particular against modern tsundere, either, with the exception of many Rie Kugimiya characters as well. I dropped Toradora because of that. Though I don't mind Shana at all, but that might be for the interesting setting and atmosphere the series has managed to create. Well, I don't actually think there's such a big difference between traditional and modern tsundere anyway. The personality shift just isn't so sudden and complete with the modern ones.
Last but not least let's not forget exceptional cases like placing a tsundere against a cool asskicker like Kazuma Yagami. I dare say the series would have been a lot less interesting without an unlucky tsundere who never had a chance to express her tsundereness in the normal highly dominant way against such an opponent.
Saber was somewhat a Tsundere, but going only by the first definition I suppose. She was quite cold to Shirou at first, mostly because she thought he was a dumb bastard (which he is), but then fell in love with him and went all spoony.
Peace.
@Yuki:
I sounds like you should probably read Salad Days by Inokuma Shinobu. It has the same sort of romance vignettes that Hatsukoi Limited does, with a similar (but more loosely connected) network of characters. Not all of the stories end happily or with a couple either. There is a main storyline as well that goes across the entire series.
On Tsunderes:
The reason I like the 80-20 golden ratio tsunderes are because they actually are the real tsundere characters. The term gets thrown around a lot, certainly way too much. There are a lot of characters labeled as tsunderes who aren't even one at all. 40-60, not tsundere. When there's far more dere-dere than tsun-tsun, the character is more likely to be one of those "guy makes initial bad impression" characters. She might hate him at first or think he's a dork, but in general she's not hostile to him or even acknowledges him. He'll do something impressive, and then she never really has a tsun-tsun phase at all.
To be a true tsundere, the tsun-tsun phase has to be a defense mechanism. If the girl is simply not really aware of the guy, is just simply aloof, I stuggle to label her as a tsundere. That's why Mio just barely fits the label. There is no guy involved, but she gets hostile to cover up why she would otherwise be shy. Since there is no romance aspect, I would still never call her one, but agree where the argument can be made. Lack of awareness of the guy does not a tsundere make. As with Kei, she's afraid of her own feelings, and ends up being hostile. Rin is a good example of a tsundere because she is very aware of Shirou on the first night when she finds him in the prologue. Something even to the effect of, "Why did it have to be him." By the time you see her in the main game playing as Shirou, her projected feelings are considerably different than her internal ones we saw in the prologue.
A lot of Rie Kugimiya characters are not very good tsunderes. Most of them are 60-40 at best. Louise spends more time in a dere-dere mode than she does tsun-tsun. Flashes of anger in a mostly neutral or dere-dere state are boring. She was great in the first series, but by the second and third, she's lost most her appeal and becomes just one of those reaction-punchers. On the other hand, in the Love Hina manga, Naru Narusegewa (despite the series being a total ripoff of Maison Ikkoku) is largely very hostile to Keitaro, only letting little bits of her dere-dere personality through earlier. While she relents a lot, Naru doesn't really give in completely until late in the series, making her very close to a proper 80-20 just by counting the book numbers (same goes for Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku).
Awareness is key.
For me, it is that delicious feeling when the tsundere realizes she might have gone too far. The male lead has gone for the pursuit, put in all of the effort, and is still getting pushed away. The tsundere sees that she's gone too far, and if she pushes it any further, she will lose her chance. While she hasn't intended to do all this harm (she is very aware of and genuinely likes the guy), the tables flip and now she needs to show her true side, by gaining the courage to admit it. It's a pretty complicated dynamic if you think about it, with a lot of character development in a realatively short amount of time. Both the male lead and tsundere have to "grow up" so to speak.
I've already described the aspects of the perfect 80-20 tsundere, so I suppose I've rambled enough.
------------------------------
@shinta
Saber was not. Saber was the normal romance angle (frankly she's never really aware of Shirou in a romance way until the end, see above), Rin the tsundere, and Sakura the corruption/redemption.
@Ryll - yeah, now that I think about it, Saber wasn't much of a tsundere, but not because she was not hostile towards Shirou. She wasn't a tsundere because she never became a dere at all. Even when she loved Shirou, she still acted the same dignified way.
You seem to subscribe solely to the newer definition of the word, with several qualifiers. While I can perfectly understand your tastes, I'm confused how you can say that your definition is the real tsundere. It isn't even the original meaning of the term, not that being original or the first has any bearing on the accuracy of language, which is very adaptive. IMO it is a very loose term, which is why claiming that one definition is real while another is not is kind of pointless.
EDIT: I realize that you may just be exaggerating when you said that to put emphasis on your opinion. If that is so, please ignore what I said above.
@Yuki - I second that recommendation. Salad Days is absolutely awesome. Probably one of the most heart rending and warming mangas for people who like romance.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 05-21-2009 at 05:02 AM.
Peace.
It's great to see more of the thought behind the passions, thanks to all of you who took the time to put it to text. I hadn't really thought much about the differences between what shinta identified as 'older' vs 'newer' tsundere but I think my tastes would prefer the 'older'. I prefer that the change from being snappishly violent and hurtful to more understanding and civil to be more permanent. I can respect the trial by fire tsunderes often have to go through to purge them of their hurtful ways but it has to stick. If they soften up and become comparatively more level headed then the result will seem worth the pain suffered to get them to that point. On the other hand if after being pushed and pushed to reach a state of dere the girl just ends up snapping back to tsun mode I feel like the effort was wasted. I am slow to forgive without some form of appeasement and I don't give out too many chances after repeated negative results. The more frequent oscillations between tsun and dere these 'newer' tsunderes seem to exhibit are generally enough for me to deem the girl unworthy or undeserving of affection even if her interest is more forgiving and/or willing to push through her defenses again and again to get at the deredere.
I'm something of a late-comer to the more romantically focused shows/stories. Most of my experience with tsundere has been in series where the romance was an accompaniment to some main conflict. Since the struggle between tsun and dere in female protagonists tends to disrupt their ability to cooperate with their male interests reducing the overall effectiveness of the protagonists I have come to see tsundereness itself as an antagonist standing in the way of getting things done effectively and efficiently. For better or worse I bring a lot of that same goal oriented mentality to romance stories with achieving stable and mutually beneficial relationships with love interests replacing 'defeating the bad guy' as the central goal.
Last edited by Yukimura; Thu, 05-21-2009 at 04:04 PM.
Yes, I was blending my point with my opinion to strengthen my point. 80-20 tsundere are certainly not the only "true" tsunderes, but being unaware is very different from aloof. Awareness of the male lead is vital, otherwise it is more of a normal romance than a tsundere romance.
However, I would debate your definition of "newer" versus "older". While the term itself has not been around nearly that long, tsundere characters have been. There isn't a difference between "newer" or "older," since the variety has been around for some time.
Maison Ikkoku
Kimagure Orange Road
Ranma 1/2
All series from the 80's, all with tsundere heroines (before they were so broadly categorized as such) with rather abrupt changes of mind. Only the 80-20 ascribes to the formula I laid out, but they are a special case to begin with.
I do agree that the characters have been around long enough, for both types of Tsundere. The newer and older classification is simply based on when the term was coined, and how it was understood back then. Either way, I don't subscribe to "original" as being more true or accurate than what may be more accepted now.
Peace.
Original Tsundere:
Episode 7 - m.3.3.w
Episode 7 xvid - m.3.3.w
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
this episode was cute
Koyoi: "I should have wished for my breast to grow bigger, WHY DID I WISH FOR WORLD PEACE!?"
-Hahaha, wtf @ Kayoi
-Dobashi might be the focus of this episode, but Kayoi pretty much stole this episode from her, right from thesingingrandom outbursts.
-I'm glad they tried to give screentime to everyone else too. You just have to see the scarf and mittens to feel warm & fuzzy, but the main thing is that it filled in time due to lack of DobashiXTerai interaction. Seriously, that pair barely talks. Ironically, this pair's making the most progress. I second Kei's opinion about Dobashi beating her to a boyfriend. I won't say Dobashi's setting her standards too low (as opposed to Kei setting her's too high as stated in the first ep), but they didn't even go into why Dobashi likes Terai. Because he tries hard?
-What surprised me was that Arihara went to the shrine with her brother. From past episodes, she has no qualms about ditching her brother at all, and Mammoru (who is nowhere to be found) is more than happy to comply for his safety's sake.
-"elite equipment" made my day
Last edited by Buffalobiian; Wed, 05-27-2009 at 07:09 AM.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
They do make a rather hard to figure out couple, for sure. Why Dobashi likes him is the main unknown, but then again, they are all quite unexperienced in the game, so why not? Terai was probably the first guy Dobashi interacted much with. What I found the most interesting in their relationship is how it continued to be some sort of a trainer-trainee thing all the way through. Made evident by how Dobashi forced herself to seem rather cold and distant until Terai had gathered enough courage to take a step forward.
I'm made really happy by these latest episodes. It seems the series only started with fruitless interests but now we have been getting mutual ones as well.
Mahou Showtime shows this show'll officially be 12 eps long.
http://www.mahou.org/Showtime
While I want to see this every week, 12 episodes is a fairly reasonable and appropriate length if they spend similar time wrapping up everybody as they did Kei and Kusada. Or semi-wrap-up I should say.
24 eps isn't out the of question though, depending on how many more characters get introduced, and how complex things are going to turn out. Splitting the series midway seems to be a more and more popular way of doing things these days anyway.
I wonder how they'll do the ending too. As Kraco mentioned, fruitful endings for everyone is being hinted with these latest eps. Normally, finishing a pair-per-episode would be the norm, leaving the final/most important pair till last, but with a show like this where there's not "main" and where everybody has their own favourite.....I could only see something like a 2hr finale akin to how tv dramas end them. (unlikely as it is)
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Aw, Dobashi is definitely the best fix for Terai's low self-esteem and that squeal from him at 12:18-12:20 was funny.
I thought for a moment that Koyoi went into lesbian mode, but stopped before she fully converted. Her reaction to her own feeling and wish was priceless, as well.
I am training in the shadows.
Currently playing: All of your games, probably.
Saki-nee will turn any woman into lesbian mode.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Random Saki-nee appearances are always good but I'm mildly disappointed that neither she nor anyone else seemed to bother with wearing a kimono for New Years. I have a feeling this is actually more realistic than normal anime depictions of the even but I don't care, I want to see traditional garb Saki-nee!!!
Anyway, Dobashi x Terai was an interesting relationship. It seemed clear what Terai wanted from the beginning, but I found myself wondering why she suggested going out in the first place and if Dobashi didn't even realized there might be more to 'going out' than walking home in the vicinity of one other. I guess one could interpret her coldness as 'training' him to have more of a backbone though and if that's really the case it seems to have worked to some degree. It was good to see they made some progress.
Hatsukoi Limited - 08 (1024x576 H264) - [soramimi]
Hatsukoi Limited - 08 (H264) - [m.3.3.w]
Hatsukoi Limited - 08 (XviD) - [m.3.3.w]
Wow....good episode, very tense. Fortunately panty flashes galore helped keep the tension under a degree of control.
Last edited by Yukimura; Tue, 06-02-2009 at 11:18 PM.
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