Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~

[Buffalobiian]

Reiji was taking things a bit too easily, since that 9mm could have easily gone for his head instead of an ornament, but I don't think killing Scythe is as easy as it sounds. They're two assassins, but they no longer had the backing they once did. Before they had connection, intel and money from Inferno to back them up in their operations. Now, they've not only lost that, but it's the very power they're up against. While Kraco's got a point that Inferno may not be actively pursuing them, they've probably got a kill-on-sight, or at least report-on-sight order for them, forbidding them to get too close.

On the other hand, this episode did nicely in portraying the effect this all had on Reiji's life. The first segment felt almost too good to be true, only to be brought back to reality with the all too familiar firearm. (I was actually in emotional conflict for the first half. Elen as a sister only? NOOOOO!!! ---> but that's all good now )

I remember Kraco saying how he wished Zwei would break after Elen died during the second arc. We never got that, but I feel Cal would be the closest thing yet to a crazed killer. Scythe hinted at some other creations of his, but those seemed to be mere killing puppets without the feelings the first three Phantoms possessed.

Cal's proportions are . Her unnatural maturity is bordering on being uncomfortable to watch/see. Ah well, with McCunnen dead they'll need someone to take over those big boobs.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't think killing Scythe is as easy as it sounds. They're two assassins, but they no longer had the backing they once did. Before they had connection, intel and money from Inferno to back them up in their operations. Now, they've not only lost that, but it's the very power they're up against.

Exactly.

@ Kraco

Scythe is a major part of Inferno now, especially since the two other big bosses are dead. If it is Scythe hunting them now (and it probably is because of Cal's presence) then he is most likely assigned by Inferno, or at the very least volunteered to take the assignment himself. This does not mean that Inferno would not send their own people had Scythe not been there.

When Claudia and Lizzie hunted them down before, it was because they represented Inferno as well. It also doesn't mean that no one else looked for them. It just so happened that they were found by Lizzie first.

There is enough evidence that Inferno is hunting Reiji and Elen down actively in this episode alone. They both know that their peaceful times would not last. They said so themselves. When Reiji was shot at, the first name they thought of was "Inferno", not Scythe. Those two worked for the organization, so they know best how that organization works, as well as the protocol for certain cases (like theirs).

Also, it is not just about profit, but liability. Having your two extremely skilled ex-assassins running around with potential to severely hurt your organization with the information and talent that they possess is not a good idea. The two may have little chance of winning, but pose a great risk nonetheless.

[FaramirRat]

As u can see this is my second post, though i read these forums alot. I dont even wanna discuss the series i would just like to say how good it is. Ive been watching anime sense friggin thunder cats if u can classify that as an anime. This anime is one of the best i've ever watched on par with cowboy bebop and others i hope they keep up the good work and bring more thrill. This anime would be great for the discussion of new vrs old anime and how supposebly less effort is put into the new ones and they are all the same. Though this is similar to other animes the twists and turns and the story just keeps u on your heels. I dunno i wish more newer anime were more like this with great story lines and great animation. This show makes u believe it can be done and hopefully will be done. I applaud this anime even if the ending doesnt end to my liking it is still a great anime to watch week to week.

[Kraco]

Scythe is a major part of Inferno now, especially since the two other big bosses are dead. If it is Scythe hunting them now (and it probably is because of Cal's presence) then he is most likely assigned by Inferno, or at the very least volunteered to take the assignment himself. This does not mean that Inferno would not send their own people had Scythe not been there.

I guess our disagreement boils down to our different views of Scythe. I never looked at him like a man who had any love whatsoever for Inferno. He was simply using them as a steady base for funding, security, and - most importantly - a chance for plenty of opportunities to test his creations in practice. I don't think we have seen any scenes in the whole series where Scythe would have been more interested in becoming powerful in Inferno than his deadly dolls.

Of course we can't also forget the fact that Elen actually knows Scythe betrayed Inferno as much as McCunnen did. That's quite a liability, like you said, but not for Inferno, only for Scythe.

Anyway, Inferno is hardly like a country with endlessly patriotic people ready to die for it. It's just a mafia organization not even made out of old family the Italian way but a mixed collection of criminals either crushed and forced to serve it or driven by greed to join it for higher profits and power. What I mean to say is there's no single will of Inferno but a bunch of executives each trying to get stronger than the others.

[shinta|hikari]

I never said that Scythe is not moving because of his own motives. I said that Inferno has a reason for and is hunting down the two former phantoms. Scythe can use Inferno as much as he wants. It doesn't change the fact that Inferno actively wants to kill Elen and Reiji, and has probably assigned Scythe to do it.

There are tons more information, like faces, location of offices/bases etc that can be used against them, most of which have nothing to do with Scythe. Don't forget that Reiji has met with the big boss several times.

Please don't forget that Inferno has a leader. Even Claudia and Isaac constantly obeyed McGuire's orders. Now that they are dead, it can even be said that Inferno has a single will. Still, this has nothing to do with the basic idea of wanting to kill traitors from your organization.

Please remember the case when Ein and Scythe betrayed the organization. Didn't McGuire himself task Reiji to hunt and kill them? Why? Because they are traitors, like Reiji and Elen are now. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

[oyabun]

Inferno kills those who betrays or those who they think betrayed them period. Reiji and Elen was running from them from the start. Remember from Palau islands to Philippines. It was inferno who was hunting them. Betrayal for inferno warrants you to have killed at all cost. Whatever the reason.

[Kraco]

I never said Inferno doesn't want them killed. Of course it does. It's the most infamous and ruthless of all the mafia groups, wich is exactly why it wiped out so many of its competitors. What I have been trying to say that if Elen and Reiji took out Scythe, their hiding would become considerably easier because Scythe is the innovative maniac inside Inferno. The rest are just plain old boring mafiosos without him. And you can always guess how the usual mafia types act, even if they happen to be a bit more ruthless than non-Inferno ones.

Surely you haven't forgotten that Scythe is badass enough to even mock Inferno all he wants, like he did when he plotted McCunnen's downfall. In fact this McGuire fellow, whom everybody seems to listen to, hasn't done anything at all during the show. He was simply dancing on Scythe's palm trying to look calm and composed.

Surely you aren't next going to tell me that Scythe sending cracked Cal, with no doubt top-notch assassin training, after Reiji and Elen is equal to the ordinary nameless grunts they will also be facing no doubt. Those nameless grunts would have been everything McGuire could have ever sent.

[shinta|hikari]

In the end Inferno would likely kill them if given a decent chance but I don't see them going out of their way to hunt them down from the far reaches of the world. Where's the profit in that?

This is what you said before. What I am trying to point out is that they are going out of their way to hunt them down from the far reaches of the world. Even if it is Scythe doing the hunting, it is most likely because he volunteered for the existing task or was assigned to do it.

I also agree that if they did kill Scythe, it would be considerably easier to hide and live freely. Heck, I bet Reiji would kill Scythe the first second he could just for ruining his and Elen's life (though Scythe was also the reason they met in the first place). The problem with that plan is, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible for the two of them to kill Scythe right now, for reasons me and Buff have stated before. You yourself admit that this guy is badass, and you want two people with no information, no backup, and limited resources to go and attack him?

[Kraco]

Would Inferno without Scythe have even found them? Scythe likely found them simply because he knew of the girl. However, the other person who knew of her was the former no.2, now the boss of the Godoh group, and he would have more likely kept the girl a secret than reveal her to all of Inferno (unless we will learn in the next episode he himself wants to get rid of the girl or marry her or something else). So, Inferno wouldn't have gone out of their way since they wouldn't have had anywhere to go in the first place. The world is a big place and Inferno is not like CIA or something with crazy resources for finding individuals (and even CIA can't find one terrorist boss).

What comes to offing Scythe, Ein and to a lesser extent Zwei are probably the two persons who could mostly guess how Scythe would behave or react, thus granting more opportunities. Even without Inferno backing them, they are still the original two uber assassins that everybody was afraid of.

[shinta|hikari]

Would Inferno without Scythe have even found them? Scythe likely found them simply because he knew of the girl. However, the other person who knew of her was the former no.2, now the boss of the Godoh group, and he would have more likely kept the girl a secret than reveal her to all of Inferno (unless we will learn in the next episode he himself wants to get rid of the girl or marry her or something else). So, Inferno wouldn't have gone out of their way since they wouldn't have had anywhere to go in the first place. The world is a big place and Inferno is not like CIA or something with crazy resources for finding individuals (and even CIA can't find one terrorist boss).

What's your point? Scythe is in Inferno now. I even agreed with you that it would be easy for Reiji and Elen to hide if Scythe is out of the equation. Still, I would not underestimate a worldwide criminal organization. There is always a paper trail somewhere. Didn't they move several times for the first year and a half of their escape before settling in Japan?

In the end Inferno would likely kill them if given a decent chance but I don't see them going out of their way to hunt them down from the far reaches of the world. Where's the profit in that?

Not going out of their way because they have no means is different from not going out of their way because they see no benefit in it. Which is it?

What comes to offing Scythe, Ein and to a lesser extent Zwei are probably the two persons who could mostly guess how Scythe would behave or react, thus granting more opportunities. Even without Inferno backing them, they are still the original two uber assassins that everybody was afraid of.

This is wishful thinking. You yourself said that Scythe is using Inferno and its resources. The odds are just too bad, and is not worth risking their freedom (even if it is limited) for. If they knew where Scythe was, what he was doing, and what his assets (weapons, allies, and resources) are specifically, then it might be possible. They don't, and most likely cannot find out. Scythe isn't exactly the most straightforward character in the show. Even Inferno (his "boss") doesn't know what he is doing half of the time.

[Kraco]

Not going out of their way because they have no means is different from not going out of their way because they see no benefit in it. Which is it?

Still, I would not underestimate a worldwide criminal organization. There is always a paper trail somewhere.

Sure there is a way if they for example hire a thousand private investigators to look for them. But who in Inferno will let go of the millions of dollars to fund such a search? And what says the investment would benefit more than just let Reiji hide (do they even know Elen is out there? Except for Scythe). However, Scythe telling them it would be worth it to check this one place costs them the price of plane tickets to go there and have a look around.

What I'm saying that without Scythe (if Reiji and Elen had killed him) it might not be worth the millions for Inferno to overly actively look for Reiji. Sure they still would look for him, he's a traitor after all, but likely without that much success if Reiji and Elen had been careful. Although as it is their current location was anything but carefully chosen, so maybe Elen's thinking like I am anyway.

[Buffalobiian]

Inferno - Episode 21

[Kraco]

Who the heck taught those Chinese criminals to shoot? Or rather, who the heck was supposed to teach them but never appeared for the duty? That was the most miserable gunfight so far in the series and was on a par with the likes of Noir, Madlax, and others from that gun hating franchise. I was hoping to get to see Cal show skills like Ein and Zwei possessed but instead it was so bad I couldn't even laugh.

I hope the next episode will turn out better. Much better.

Edit: Oh, being so pissed off by the horrible gunfight I almost forgot to mention that I was so correct and you guys so wrong. Inferno wasn't there for the old Phantoms at all and even Scythe himself has only marginal interest, probably mostly due to the fact that killing those two would perfect Drei.

So, screw you, guys (especially you, shinta)!

[Board of Command]

Who the heck taught those Chinese criminals to shoot?

Blame the guns, not the shooters

[shinta|hikari]

Oh, being so pissed off by the horrible gunfight I almost forgot to mention that I was so correct and you guys so wrong. Inferno wasn't there for the old Phantoms at all and even Scythe himself has only marginal interest, probably mostly due to the fact that killing those two would perfect Drei.

So, screw you, guys (especially you, shinta)!

What? What specifically made you say that? Because there was another mission aside from killing Phantom? Just because Scythe himself only wants to perfect Drei doesn't mean that Inferno itself isn't hunting down Phantom.

Only you said that Scythe has some sort of vendetta against the escaped Phantoms, which we now see to be untrue, since Drei is the one that has an issue with them. Just because Inferno wasn't there for the old Phantoms (probably because they are not aware they are even there, excluding Scythe of course) does not mean that they are not hunting them down. Scythe has his own motives, but this does not negate Inferno's motives at all.

Btw, I have seen this episode (the raw) and played the entire game before I made my previous comments.

[Kraco]

Doesn't change a thing. Already in the van Scythe said the man who helped him while he was outside of Inferno needs to die because he knows too much. If that's true, it's certainly true as well for Ein and Zwei. In the end listening to Scythe's words too intensively is no good because the dude's totally amoral but yet is a master of psychology and brain washing.

What I mainly meant up there is that without Scythe here now, Elen and Reiji would have continued living their pretty illusion even with Inferno assassinating people right next door - neither side never knowing of the other's presence. That's the only point I have been trying to prove: That with Scythe out of the equation, they would have little to worry about. And I deem this episode in my opinion indeed proved my position.

And I'm certainly not interested in raw or game material prophesies in this thread. So, you saying that means nothing at all to me. Rather, if I still prove you wrong, it will look very strange indeed.

[Buffalobiian]

What I mainly meant up there is that without Scythe here now, Elen and Reiji would have continued living their pretty illusion even with Inferno assassinating people right next door - neither side never knowing of the other's presence. That's the only point I have been trying to prove: That with Scythe out of the equation, they would have little to worry about. And I deem this episode in my opinion indeed proved my position.
.

True. What I said was it's not that easy, and both sides know it. If it wasn't, Scythe wouldn't drop by into the school with nothing but a book.

----------

Scythe said Drei's driven by hatred, and her #1 hatred is for whoever killed Judy. I'm positive the entire thing was ordered by Scythe and carried out by Elen, so if Cal really did find out who was behind the shooting, it could be a turning point for her.

Currently though, since she's not aiming her gun at Scythe, she's probably just succeeding the Phantom name by killing the old ones, rather than because she knows Elen pulled the trigger.

I'm digging the new ED, but not so much the OP. The animation's good to watch though, and I take it as a flashback of what the last 2 years (or 6 months in Japan) were like for both parties. Cal must have been a hungry teen with that sort of appetite. All that training must keep the fat off where you don't want it.

[shinta|hikari]

What I mainly meant up there is that without Scythe here now, Elen and Reiji would have continued living their pretty illusion even with Inferno assassinating people right next door - neither side never knowing of the other's presence. That's the only point I have been trying to prove: That with Scythe out of the equation, they would have little to worry about. And I deem this episode in my opinion indeed proved my position.

The funny thing about that is, I said this several posts before.

I also agree that if they did kill Scythe, it would be considerably easier to hide and live freely. Heck, I bet Reiji would kill Scythe the first second he could just for ruining his and Elen's life (though Scythe was also the reason they met in the first place). The problem with that plan is, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible for the two of them to kill Scythe right now, for reasons me and Buff have stated before.

You are arguing a point I never disagreed to. What I disagreed to was the same as Buff, which is the text in bold.

I know that this is the only thing you were trying to prove, since you said so in one of your later posts (the one which I didn't reply to, since I didn't disagree with the content). But like I said, nothing in that episode disproves anything I have said so far. It just supports the single argument you were trying to make, which I agreed to, so I am glad to be proven right as well.

Just for clarification, I quote myself on my stance.

If it is Scythe hunting them now (and it probably is because of Cal's presence) then he is most likely assigned by Inferno, or at the very least volunteered to take the assignment himself. This does not mean that Inferno would not send their own people had Scythe not been there.

EDIT: I did not mean my comment about having watched the raw or played the game in that manner. Please don't take offense. I merely wished to point out that I am not arguing out of ignorance, and that is why I left that comment in white (like a spoiler), since it was never supposed to be replied to.

[Kraco]

Nah. Arguing out of ignorance is the normal way to go if we assume the normal situation is to talk about different interpretations and predictions that will only be verified by future episodes. Which is exactly why you mentioning watching raws and the game pissed me off, because it creates unequal situation - making me argue the normal way and you the abnormal way.

But anyway, I agree that issue is largely over now. With Scythe stuffing the changed situation down Reiji and Elen's throat, I surely hope those two will realise there's no assured rest for them as long as the man keeps breathing.

And who knows, the situation I was hoping for half a series ago might still happen: Drei kills Elen, Reiji becomes a totally cracked madman psycho who slaughters every last Inferno man and woman from McGuire and Scythe to the most remote garbage collector. And at the very end he would arrange himself to get killed by Drei, who would then turn back into Cal after the bloody deed and live a miserable life of solitude and regret.

[shinta|hikari]

That is one tragic prediction. I for one would want a happier ending, preferably with Elen and Reiji alive.