Naruto Chapter 442

[poopdeville]

well there's your counter argument to whoever says Pain went down too easy. but youre right, he did throw those out way too uselessly

Jeez, what are you guys complaining about? Naruto only has three or four kage level jutsu, but he's smart and strong enough to string them together into an effective plan. He succeeded where Jiraiya failed -- indeed, the information Jiraiya gave Konoha was irrelevant to the fight against the Pein bodies.

Yes, it would be super sweet for Naruto/Konoha if the Rasenshuriken was an instantly-kill-anybody-no-matter-who-it-is move. But that would be really boring and even Konoha's best (the Third, the Fourth, Orochimaru (kind of), Itachi, and Jiraiya) don't have moves that good.

Heck, Naruto can grow clones to collect Sage chakra for him, and call on the Kyuubi for a moment to disrupt them, and collect it all. He can apparently summon shadow clones anywhere he wants, in any shape he wants. And if he really needs to, he can use Kyuubi chakra -- a giant Kyuubi Rasengan like the one Jiraiya used, but much much bigger, could work very well for Naruto if he can figure out how to tame the Kyuubi like Killabee did. Give him some time, and you'll see Naruto string lots more impressive kage level jutsu together, like the Third did against Orochimaru.

What more do you want from Naruto? Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Majin Buu, Cell, Frieza, and potentially Madara or Sasuke or Mr. Satan (yeah right to the last three), are about the only people who could properly kick his ass at this point.

[Abdula]

He succeeded where Jiraiya failed -- indeed, the information Jiraiya gave Konoha was irrelevant to the fight against the Pein bodies..

Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

[Patriot]

Actually, I think because of her lineage, Hinata will be forced to marry someone that the Hiyaga clan decides in order to thrawt a war. And at first the other guy will seem like a jerk but then will come out shinning stars and making Hinata like him for who he is. This is all the more required as Leaf will need their current allies to support them and in search of new allies create meaningful bonds.

That's my theory on that subject.

[poopdeville]

Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

If you don't get why I don't see it, explain it better.

The way I see it, Jiraiya told Konoha that Nagato was controlling the bodies remotely. That didn't matter one bit to Naruto, who has been handily beating Pein's bodies down and has hardly paid any attention to Nagato. Hell, Jiraiya didn't even share the most vital piece of information about Pein's fighting capabilities -- that they share each other's vision. That is very much unlike other puppet jutsu.

I am not dismissing Jiraiya's contribution. The only reason Naruto thought to look for Nagato was because of the hint he was given. Nagato can now be dealt with, instead of being a recurring threat.

I also don't see why Konoha would have been destroyed "a lot sooner", considering that Pein showed up to Konoha "today" in the manga. Moreover, he was ordered to Konoha immediately after fighting Jiraiya. It's been about two weeks since Jiraiya died, in the manga.

[Assertn]

I wasn't arguing whether or not he used the shurikens effectively. I was arguing that his hyped-up move was repeatedly overshadowed by standard rasengans for pretty much the entire match.

[FireEmblem]

Actually, I think because of her lineage, Hinata will be forced to marry someone that the Hiyaga clan decides in order to thrawt a war. And at first the other guy will seem like a jerk but then will come out shinning stars and making Hinata like him for who he is. This is all the more required as Leaf will need their current allies to support them and in search of new allies create meaningful bonds.

That's my theory on that subject.

Remember when Naruto said he'd change the Hyuga when he became Hokage?

I do.

[Abdula]

I dread having to explain things

Anyway first of all, Naruto wasn't handily doing anything. The only reason Naruto seemed to have been overpowering Pain when he first showed up was because Pain was wiped from just having blown up the village I think that would have been clear by now. As soon as Pain recovered I remember him handily taking care of Naruto's sage mode.

IHell, Jiraiya didn't even share the most vital piece of information about Pein's fighting capabilities -- that they share each other's vision. That is very much unlike other puppet jutsu.

And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/

I am not dismissing Jiraiya's contribution. The only reason Naruto thought to look for Nagato was because of the hint he was given. Nagato can now be dealt with, instead of being a recurring threat.

Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

I also don't see why Konoha would have been destroyed "a lot sooner", considering that Pein showed up to Konoha "today" in the manga. Moreover, he was ordered to Konoha immediately after fighting Jiraiya. It's been about two weeks since Jiraiya died, in the manga.

2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

[Sidnne]

I dread having to explain things

I just try to ignore posts from certain people anymore. It's whats best for my sanity.

[poopdeville]

I dread having to explain things

Then don't be a patronizing little bitch.

Hint what hint are you talking about.

"The real one is not there"

And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/

That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.

2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

It took Pein about 15 minutes to deal with Jiraiya. Pein already had a replacement for that body lined up. Remember the Rain Village chuunin Jiraiya captured? It looks like most of the delay in Pein's attack was due to needing to move his crippled ass around without people discovering his secret. Otherwise he could have attacked immediately, like Jiraiya did. The Rain Village borders the Land of Fire.

I think it's pretty retarded to praise Jiraiya for Naruto's use of Sage Mode. You might as well be praising Pein -- if Pein hadn't killed Jiraiya, Fukusaku wouldn't have offered to teach Naruto Sage mode, so he could get his revenge. Naruto had to train at it himself, with the frogs, without Jiraiya's help. If anything, praise Naruto and the Frog Master for pulling it off under impossible pressure. You are definitely reaching here.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

Yes, that is how ninjas die. They run out of power in front of a stronger enemy.

[Abdula]

Well that was an exercise in futility.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.

pretty sure frogs were only there because jiraiya was there.

[Pandadice]

Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

If you don't get why I don't see it, explain it better.

okay, yeah, i'm with poopdevile. I don't get how Pain's not-really-being-there affected Naruto's plan of just killing all the clones and looking for the real one later? even though like Shika and a squad did that whole planning to find the real one thing, it didn't affect this at all. unless of course we find out next week that the rasengan hit a clone, and the clone's clone pops up and wipes out naruto and then shika and the squad take out the real one...

i don't understand how knowing that it's a clone affected their (naruto's) battle tactics. the shared vision? yeah. the interval in between magnetic bursts? yeah. those both affected the way he fought pain. but he never made any move to go after the real one. maybe it'll affect his feeling of victory after he kills the last clone and he thinks "awman, after all that it's still not over.. dang." I could kind of see how that could play in. but whatever.

oh, and yeah, sorry to ask the same question taht was asked at the top of the page. but

I dread having to explain things

Anyway first of all, Naruto wasn't handily doing anything. The only reason Naruto seemed to have been overpowering Pain when he first showed up was because Pain was wiped from just having blown up the village I think that would have been clear by now. As soon as Pain recovered I remember him handily taking care of Naruto's sage mode.

And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/

Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

^that post doesn't say anything othe than nit-pick at irrelevant mis-wordings.

[joker-kun]

^that post doesn't say anything othe than nit-pick at irrelevant mis-wordings.

^That post really says nothing useful at all.

Oh, and this post says nothing useful either. Amusing.

Anyways, to point out one thing Abdula said, Naruto was already late arriving when he did, so even if Jiraiya only bought 15 minutes (that can be disputed quite a bit) it was still crucial. Not to mention his death brough about a small, but in my opinion, significant back story (Naruto's mom and dad, the whole novel thing, the fact that his death has played a very large role in Naruto's "resolve").

A completely off-topic, irrelevant, and possibly useless point: I understand Abdula isn't very liked, heck we have even bumped heads a few times, but i've got to say it's getting horribly redundant and boring to constantly see how most forum posters dislike him. To be honest he's one of the few people to actually offer well argued and thought out arguments, so maybe a few forum members should drop their man-crush and focuss on actually writing something worth while to read?

[Pandadice]

^That post really says nothing useful at all.

Oh, and this post says nothing useful either. Amusing.

Anyways, to point out one thing Abdula said, Naruto was already late arriving when he did, so even if Jiraiya only bought 15 minutes (that can be disputed quite a bit) it was still crucial. Not to mention his death brough about a small, but in my opinion, significant back story (Naruto's mom and dad, the whole novel thing, the fact that his death has played a very large role in Naruto's "resolve").

A completely off-topic, irrelevant, and possibly useless point: I understand Abdula isn't very liked, heck we have even bumped heads a few times, but i've got to say it's getting horribly redundant and boring to constantly see how most forum posters dislike him. To be honest he's one of the few people to actually offer well argued and thought out arguments, so maybe a few forum members should drop their man-crush and focuss on actually writing something worth while to read?

uh yeah.. my post doesn't say anything useful because i was more asking him to explain (what he says should be obvious) how Jaraiya's message that the real Pain isn't there and the one's they're fighting are puppets, affected the outcome of this fight? the frogs gave konoha a ton of info on pain, about the different abilities, the shared vision, all that stuff. and yeah, that really helped. that's how they won. but i just don't see how knowing the fact that they're all clones affected their tactics, or the outcome.

I'm not saying that Jaraiya's death wasn't crucial, or unnecessary. it was significant indeed.

and uh (continuing off-topic), I have no problem with Abdula, and yeah, it is super annoying when in ever chapter topic the first time he posts everyone has to respond like "uggg, here he comes. so much for having a nice topic" and it feels like everyone seems compelled to argue him, and just be stupid. Yeah, he does seem to like to argue, but I don't know about the "well thought out arguments".

if they were "well thought out arguments" then when poopdeville bluntly asked him to simply explain how knowing that they're all clones, and the real one isn't there affected Naruto's fighting tactics, he would have simply answered him. Poopdeville wasn't arguing, he asked a simple question (a request for a better explanation), explained where he was coming from, and the way he was looking at it.

Abdula responded by breaking up his post, picking out every other line where there was something that wasn't 100% accurate or 100% literal, and smugly acting like he's superior by correcting them all, (far be it for there to be any sense of hyperbole or mis-wordings in this thread.) while forgetting to actually answer the simply asked question. there was no need to argue that post, if it was so obvious and simple, he should have just explained it, and then we could all say "ohh, that's an interesting point. i sure didn't think about it that way". no, now we're all nit-picking every little irrelevant mistake trying to put ourselves 1 paragraph above another forum user.

[Sidnne]

Abdula responded by breaking up his post, picking out every other line where there was something that wasn't 100% accurate or 100% literal, and smugly acting like he's superior by correcting them all, (far be it for there to be any sense of hyperbole or mis-wordings in this thread.) while forgetting to actually answer the simply asked question. there was no need to argue that post, if it was so obvious and simple, he should have just explained it, and then we could all say "ohh, that's an interesting point. i sure didn't think about it that way". no, now we're all nit-picking every little irrelevant mistake trying to put ourselves 1 paragraph above another forum user.

That is generally how debating on a forum is done. You don't respond to a whole block of text with another block of text; you break each point down individually and counter individually. It's not "nit-picking," it's the typical format for presenting an argument, and poopdeville used the same method in his posts, as do most people.

When it is done in this way, it is less likely that portions of your post will be skipped over and points missed. It also avoids any confusion as to what exactly one of your points is in response to.


I also think Abdula explained it pretty well in that section you claimed doesn't say anything. Maybe you should try reading it a few more times.

[Abdula]

*sigh*

That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.

Pandadice, I think the only reason you and Poopdeville don't understand what I posted is because, for some reason, you two are differentiating between the information Jiraiya gathered and the information the toads gave to Konoha and there is no difference. Jiraiya didn't just send the code, he gave Konoha one of Pain's bodies to examine, sent them a live rain nin to interrogate and then had the toads relay all the other information he had gathered about Pain. So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

[Archangel]

Naruto threw 5 rasen-shurrikens and only one actually killed a pain body. That's kinda depressing

Yeah. Talk about flashy and ineffective...

I'm sorry but that's just complaining for the sake of complaining

Not one of the rasenshurikens thrown were useless, every single one was either an attack or bait to redirect pain's attention from a less flashy but still very effective attack that would eventually take out one of his bodies

If all the bodies had been killed using that jutsu you'd be complaining on how naruto always used the same move or how his style of fighting was as retarded as ever...

[FireEmblem]

Rasenshuriken is Naruto's "omfg I can't get hit by that" jutsu. Every good ninja needs one. Just like any kind of battle, you need to apply pressure in some way or another and the Rasenshuriken does that. The thing that is dangerous about the Rasenshuriken is actually the fact that Naruto DID throw 5 of them lol. The fact that he can use his ace jutsu so many times is really freaking scary. And the fact that the technique right under Rasenshuriken is actually a good finishing move too (Rasengan) means that just because you dodged Rasenshuriken, it doesn't mean things will get easier. That is truely an ace jutsu.

[Pandadice]

That is generally how debating on a forum is done. You don't respond to a whole block of text with another block of text; you break each point down individually and counter individually. It's not "nit-picking," it's the typical format for presenting an argument, and poopdeville used the same method in his posts, as do most people.

When it is done in this way, it is less likely that portions of your post will be skipped over and points missed. It also avoids any confusion as to what exactly one of your points is in response to.


I also think Abdula explained it pretty well in that section you claimed doesn't say anything. Maybe you should try reading it a few more times.

lol, trust me, I've been on enough forums to know how "debating" is carried out on them.

I was not referring to the format he used as "nit-picking". in stead it was things like this

Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

where Poopdeville dropped the word "hint" and he felt the need to bring that out as it's own separate point to argue and prove Poopdeville wrong. That, that right there, calling out the usage of the word "hint" all because he said they gave Naruto a hint in stead of using "specifically", or "bluntly" telling him, Abdula feels the need to argue it. that's what I'm referring to as "nit-picking mis-wordings".

and in case you didn't red my last post, one of the biggest problems I have with his post is the fact that he did feel the need to respond to it in "standard forum debating format". like I said, there wasn't any need to argue Poopdeville's post. a simple explanation was all he wanted.

the last two paragraphs in his post were the only place he even mentioned jaraiya's fight (wait, other than the first mention of the hint/specific information or whatever. it was the only useful place)

2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference.

okay, differences in time estimation, no big deal.

Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up.

oh, he said immediately "after" in stead of "before" no big deal, a simple mis-wording.

That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

yeah, I know that Jiraiya's death was very significant, and definitely not a waste. no one's making that argument. we all know that Konoha would be a ton worse off if Jiraiya hadn't died.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

okay, yeah, most of that stuff is very true. the intervals, the shared vision, any information about the bodies. however this

Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets

i don't get it. all the other information i can plainly see. I just don't see how this, Jiraiya's last message which he wrote down with the last bit of strength, affected Naruto's tactics for taking out Pain. I can see and understand every other piece of information's place, just not this one. it'll affect it by them being sure to send out a squad to take care of the real one, yeah, so it'll affect Pain's survival. but whether or not the real one was there, i don't think Naruto would've handled it differently.

*sigh*

Pandadice, I think the only reason you and Poopdeville don't understand what I posted is because, for some reason, you two are differentiating between the information Jiraiya gathered and the information the toads gave to Konoha and there is no difference. Jiraiya didn't just send the code, he gave Konoha one of Pain's bodies to examine, sent them a live rain nin to interrogate and then had the toads relay all the other information he had gathered about Pain. So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

okay, yeah, Jiraiya did a ton of stuff, most of which lead to Pain's downfall.

but the point me and poopdeville don't see, is how the very last message Jiraiya sent, the thing he poured the last bit of strength into, the note "the real one isn't there", affected the way Naruto took them out. Naruto didn't strategically try to find the real one and by-pass the clones. that's the kind of tactic you'd expect since he did have the information afterall. no, in stead he just powered through them, and yeah he probably had it so easily since Pain's full power had been diminished a minute (rough time example! not to be taking literally as exactly 1 minute or 60 second in the naruto universe) beforehand. but regardless, Naruto took on each clone as though it was a real ninja. he took them out exactly like he would've if they were all real ninja with those abilities.

the shared vision was a super critical point, and Naruto definitely applied a tactic against that. the real one isn't there? nah, don't see how that mattered to him.

So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

i disagree with that, because the code was sketched into the toads back. all the other information was more the toads going "oh yeah, when we were fighting them they like.. did this stuff". that's the info from the toads. the toads relied on their own observations, intel gatherings, and memory, to give them all the information on Pain. the only information that jiraiya 100% guaranteed konoha was the message "the real one isn't there" (well, maybe the captured nin too.).

[Sidnne]

oh, he said immediately "after" in stead of "before" no big deal, a simple mis-wording.

There's actually a pretty big difference between "after" and "before". In fact, they're sort of opposites...

It's more than a simple "mis-wording", its a pretty important observation to note when regarding the time frame and the impact of Jiraiya's fight with Pein in terms of buying Konoha time.

i disagree with that, because the code was sketched into the toads back. all the other information was more the toads going "oh yeah, when we were fighting them they like.. did this stuff". that's the info from the toads. the toads relied on their own observations, intel gatherings, and memory, to give them all the information on Pain. the only information that jiraiya 100% guaranteed konoha was the message "the real one isn't there" (well, maybe the captured nin too.).

The toads were fighting Pein? Jiraiya had nothing to do with that?

They got their "observations, intel gatherings, and memory" by watching Jiraiya fight Pein.

Think a little before you post. If anyone is "nit-picking" here, it's you. So much so that while you're busy doing that, you're completely missing the explanation that you claim to be in search of.