That's funny because that is exactly how I feel about GinOriginally Posted by TwisT
That's funny because that is exactly how I feel about Gin
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Same here. Gin is much more fascinating to me as a character because we know next to nothing about him other than he and Matsumoto were together.
I have to go with the assumption that Tousen is much stronger now too. Although I have to say, I wouldn't count his bankai out of the loop just yet. It's pretty decent and although it's odd, it is is cool. I've been thinking about it, and I'm not so sure that Gin and Tousen are stronger thank Stark and Barrigan. They're hollows with shinigami powers. I know Aizens really really strong, but If Ulquiorra is any indication, and he's only number four on the rank, then I don't think that Tousen and Gin are stronger than the top 2. Hell even Hallibel might be stronger than Gin and Tousen. And after he released Ichigo can't even keep up at full power while he's flying around like batman ten times as strong as Ichigos bankai in hollow form. He's just messing with him now. I don't even want to see what Hallibel's released form is like let alone Stark and Barrigan.
Last edited by Dansetsu; Sat, 02-21-2009 at 01:36 PM.
You do have a point...that said however I dont even want to think about how powerful the Vasto Lordes are going to be...because the Arrancar sure as heck are not Vasto Lordes!
Well, the top four are considered to be former Lordes. Even Ulquirria. So I think Ichigo is fighting one right now. Their holes and masks all dictate that they were formerly Lordes. I also think that Stark released, would probably give even Aizen a hard time. But that's a theory.You do have a point...that said however I don't even want to think about how powerful the Vasto Lordes are going to be...because the Arrancar sure as heck are not Vasto Lordes!
Last edited by Dansetsu; Sun, 02-22-2009 at 03:54 PM.
Wait really? The top 4 were considered former Vasto Lordes? Was it mentioned somewhere in the manga? I dont remember reading that ever.
Also i have been thinking about this...how is Urahara able to fight in his gigai?
It was implied. If you look at the sillohette of a Vasto Lord it looks exactly Ulquiolla.
Yeah the top 4 are said to be Vasto menos. Even Nel Tu is said to be one because she was the number 3 espada. However I've been thinking about it and I think that even though the top two are probably stronger than Aizen, they would never betray or hurt him, so it doesn't matter. But it should be cool when he goes all out against Kyōraku. Both of them going all out should be fun to watch.
Seriously, where are you getting this from?
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First of all, I said I think. Just an assumption. And secondly, that's why I was trying to back it up with previous fights and espada. If you keep going up the latter, eventually it gets to powerful, and powerful enough to top even Aizen. I mean think about it, like I said if Ulquiorra is released and he Ichigo is having a bitch of a time keeping up in all out bankai and hollow form, then I'm hallibell released would give Aizen's bankai a decent workout. And if you keep going up the ladder using that as an indicator, then Barragan and Stark should be as strong or stronger than Aizen, even not released. So I think they would be stronger than them. We'll have to see though. Like I said I'm using this as an assumption of ranking power. And I mean c'mon, do you really think that Aizen is that strong? These top three espada, hell even top four now that we know Ulquiorra is a Vasto menos, would be that much weaker than the former fifth division captain? They'd at least be able to match him on power. That much is true.
Plus figure this into the equation, If captains in the gaurd aren't chosen for number, then how strong do we know they really are? IN your way of thinking Abdula, the healing lady and Gin should be stronger than Aizen. And that would be bull crap. Now if Aizen made these top three espada that much stronger, than I'm sure there is a reason he chose them as his top three.
1. For protection purposes they're probably stronger than he his
2. They're Vasto menos, most powerful of all hollows
3. There are only three with the rest being basically canon fodder and meat shields
So I think in the end, even released, we'll see mega power from the top three espada and big issues for the captains fighting them.
what? no.
your ladder of power is based on the (very, very, so very false) assumption that Ichigo released is somewhat comparable to Aizen. and seriously, we've seen Aizen take out bankai captains without trying (and a few captain level reapers).
further more. we haven't seen any captain lose to any hollow so far. Ukitate and #8 captain probably won't lose (what's his name? kyokoumaru?), neither did any of the other lose so far.
in fact, the only captain that will lose is hitsugaya. the boy wonder. and seriously, he's probably the weakest captain in the entire ranks.
I don't think the any of the hollows are vasto lords. maybe only #1. the rest are normal arrnaces (or whatever the title is). we can already tell that the twenty brothers remark was bullshit (there's no way that aizen has 20 vastolords under his belt), so why should we believe he even has one?
as for his top men. he himself said that his vice captain is Gin, and judging by the entire hollow behavior, the next in line is tousen. with Braniggan seeing himself as top hollow. I find it shonenly impossible to think that somebody could be stronger than aizen in his group. unless he creates a super hollow which turns against him.
Aizen, I think, is on an entirely different level. never mind his cunning (second only to Uruhara) and good looks (second to none), he took out captains in the same manner that captains kill bugs. he sent against all the captains, watched his master plan get fucked up, and then went on with it anyway.
I precive his level of strength miles further than that of any other shinigami, including ichigo's dad and Uruhara (who are probably the strongest shinigami in the current story).
of course, my opinion is just as un based as yours, but my initial point still stands, you use Ichigo as a base for your comparison, which makes it all invalid, since there's no parallel lines between Ichigo and Aizen.
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You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
Aizen took out bankai Hitsugaya with one swing, stopped Ichigo's bankai and Komamura's sword with his fingers, possibly while not looking, and incapacitated Ichigo and Komamura in one move. In all his victories Aizen has only used two attacks on the same opponent once, and that was apparently b/c he was actively trying to not kill Renji and underestimated his ability to dodge. Ichigo has never won a fight against a named character without getting injured and is always in rather poor condition at the end of a fight. I don't think there's much comparison.
Well even if he really is that strong, I'm not doubting that. But I'm doubting his strength in comparison to the top three espada. I think that's where you guys are getting it wrong in my comparison. I'm not comparing Aizen and Ichigo, I'm comparing Aizen, and the top three espada. Most notably, Barragan and Stark. That's all. I'm just saying that Stark should be insanely strong compared to even Aizen. So I'm still going to stick with my guns and say that Stark is the same strength as Aizen. Even unreleased.
Is Aizen a god? No but apparently you guys make him out to be. Yes he can stop bankais with two fingers and take hollows down with almost pure thought, but that doesn't mean that Stark can't either? Or hell even barragan and hallibel.
Well then perhaps you should wait to see them in action, or see if they even survive this battle, before jumping to conclusions. Not only does the subordinates being stronger than the leader go against all things shonen, but your assumptions are based on nothing. How can you compare Aizen to the top three espada when you haven't really seen either of them in action nor have you seen Aizen get serious, so what are you comparing?
And yes, Aizen is a god, he said so himself.
Last edited by Abdula; Wed, 02-25-2009 at 11:43 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Well as someone said Aizen defeted several bankai users without using his own bankai or even breaking a sweat. 1-2 attacks. So a serious Aizen with only shikai would at least be 2-3 times stronger (i say least since he could be 10 times stronger). And if i remember correctly when Yuroichi (or whatever her name is) told Itchigo about bankai the first time she said that in general bankai increase a shinigami's strength 5-10 times and sometimes even more. So if we go on that and take the minimum value for his strenght increases you get x2 for full out shikai which is 2 times as strong and then x5 for bankai and he turns out to be 10 times as strong as he was when he beat several captain level characters. And that is minimum. If we take x3 and x10 we would get 30 times.
I know this should be taken with a grain of salt but if we should go on the only fact we have that is what you get. So to say that #1 and #2 is stronger then Aizen sounds to me like a bunch of bullcrap. If they where that strong every shinigami should have died instantly except the commander.
At least that is how i'm looking at the whole thing. Until i see otherwise i go by the facts given to me.
Barragan seems to be an insufferable jerk, that believes himself to be superior to just about anyone else, do you really believe he would work for someone who's weaker than him?
Twist: math doesn't work. it's shonen anime, things get disregarded a moment after we see them.
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You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
Well aside from Ichigo, he just fking sucks, all the others were due the hypnosis, I think its fair to say that they didn't see byakuya coming, byakuya who was already kinda fucked up.
I'm sure that if that hypnosis shit of his wasn't in effect he would've been fucked up by everyone who was there, I mean they only escaped due to the negacion stuff.
So yeah I wouldn't say Aizen is miles above people like yamamoto, ukitake, kyouraku, uruhara and ichigo's dad at all.
I don't think the hypnosis allowed him to stop the swords with his bare hands but it's true lots of people can do that. The way I look at it though it's the ability to win fights with the least amount of effort, not the ability to win fair fights, that determines ones 'ranking' on the power scales. As hax as it is hypnosis is part of Aizen's skillset just like Ichigo's 'super' speed or Tousen's or Mayuri's bankai are part of theirs. It seems like as long as Aizen is strong enough to cause devastating damage to his opponent with a free hit his hypnosis should guarantee him at least one chance to do so. I think what would matter most would be whether his opponent was able to break through the hypnosis to react and counter his free hit and whether the free hit was enough to take out the opponent in the first place.
We know that Shinji was able to detect and dispel Aizen's illusion without any effort 110 years ago. If he could do it I figure the captains as old or older than him probably could have as well, but that was then and Aizen may have improved or been hiding the full extent of his ability even then. In the present timeline Unohana, apparently the most experienced captain after than Yamamoto, seemed fooled enough for Aizen to have gotten a clean attack in on her at any time he wanted. I would expect the hypnosis to fail on Yamamoto just because, but Ukitake and Kyoraku I would put below Unohana in terms of experience and mental discipline and I'd call it a toss up whether they would be susceptible to it since we don't know what special abilities they have.
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