Lolicon equal child pornography?

[Dark Dragon]

I recently came across an article on ANN about an Iowa man who is being charge for 20 years in prison. His crimes? possession of obscene material that mainly consist of lolicon and yaoi manga that he ordered from Japan.

Here is there link to the article

I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed before since the search function didn't really yield much result so i apologize if this is a repeated topic.

There is also the issue of Seven Seas Entertainment dropping the American release of Kodomo no Jikan after reviewing some of the later volumes.

I personally never understood the mentality behind the lolicon culture and usually try avoid the subject. The fact that Christopher Handley is facing almost the same sentence he would have got if he possessed real child pornography though, deeply disturb me.

If Christopher Handley loses this case, it would set precedence for many more like it to come and that could spell trouble. I'm all for protecting the children but should the government really have the right to arrest people who are not really harming anyone?

So what do you guys think? Can naked drawing really be constitute as child pornography or is this just another moment that points toward this country extreme Puritan origin.

edit: I do realize that the article contain obvious bias but i was simply using it as a news source rather than to change any opinion

here are some others that i have found: 1, 2

[Animeniax]

I didn't read the entire editorial, but to me, child porn is child porn, regardless of the medium it is presented in and what country it originates from. I didn't appreciate the writer's slippery slope arguments that lead from this guy getting prosecuted to all of us having our comics seized and searched. And calling it "manga" like that gives it some artistic exclusion to good taste is ridiculous. "Manga" is just Japanese for "comic book", and they don't allow child porn in comic books either. And defending this on 1st Amendment grounds is silly too. There are exclusions to the 1st Amendment. Depictions of child porn would be one of them.

I don't agree with the 20 year sentence or treating it the same as child porn, but I guess the authorities aren't messing around when it comes to this.

How about some more background on the defendant? Does he have a record? Is he on a sex offender list? What got the prosecutor's attention to this individual?

[Kraco]

I thought this debate was over in the USA already. I remember there was much noise and commotion generated a year ago or so, but if I understood correctly, drawn material was excluded from the tightened laws.

This sort of censorship is always dangerous. There are no victims at all, unlike with real child pornography, so it's not even protecting anybody. The old saying says that if you offer the devil a finger he will claim the whole hand. That's what would happen here, and before long series like Shakugan no Shana would be banned as well.

[Munsu]

I could care less about pornography, any kind, in drawn pictures. The law makes too big of a deal with obscenity. Just as I could care less of violence in the media, I could care less about people wanting to read some hentai with lolis. Why should anyone care or be bothered by it? It's not like he's parading around the park wanking his dick at 12 year olds.

[Animeniax]

Well there's two sides to that argument. Some think that interest in comic kiddie porn will lead to real-life kiddie porn and endanger children with dick wanking at the park. Others say that comic porn is an outlet for weirdos so there's less likelihood they'll engage in real criminal behavior.

I think asking a bunch of anime/manga fans in their teens and early 20s won't yield the most objective or knowledgeable of discussions on the matter.

[Munsu]

Well there's two sides to that argument. Some think that interest in comic kiddie porn will lead to real-life kiddie porn and endanger children with dick wanking at the park. Others say that comic porn is an outlet for weirdos so there's less likelihood they'll engage in real criminal behavior.

I think asking a bunch of anime/manga fans in their teens and early 20s won't yield the most objective or knowledgeable of discussions on the matter.

A bit of an exaggeration, but that's almost like punishing a drug user as a murderer because of some belief that drug use will lead to murder (which in various different ways it is true because of circumstances). People should be punished for what they do, not for what they may do in some hypothetical situation just because a group of people have a theory about human behavior.

If anything, there should be more focus in education and on parenting than wether or not some random guy like to read comic books that contain some lolis.

I love my violent movies, games, comics... you don't see me going around killing people.

[Kraco]

I love my violent movies, games, comics... you don't see me going around killing people.

Oh, yes I do. Every time a new season of 24 begins.

[Munsu]

Oh, yes I do. Every time a new season of 24 begins.

Jack Bauer has given me immunity.

Anyways, all these groups that keeps pushing to censor the media and all crap like that can go suck my dick.

[Animeniax]

A bit of an exaggeration, but that's almost like punishing a drug user as a murderer because of some belief that drug use will lead to murder (which in various different ways it is true because of circumstances). People should be punished for what they do, not for what they may do in some hypothetical situation just because a group of people have a theory about human behavior.

If anything, there should be more focus in education and on parenting than wether or not some random guy like to read comic books that contain some lolis.

I love my violent movies, games, comics... you don't see me going around killing people.

That's a bit of a stretch of a comparison. Think more along the lines of marijuana's perception as a gateway drug leading to harder drugs. Interest in animated kiddie porn can be seen to lead to interest in real kiddie porn.

And the concern is that people who like violent movies, games, and comics will become desensitized to the violence and make them more likely to do the wrong thing in a bad situation. They'll be more likely to look the other way when faced with matters like genocide.

[KrayZ33]

I wonder if Fate/Stay Night is loli-p0rn? (the game)
It says "all characters are over 18 years old" in the beginning but that is obviously not the true...

Oh man, I can imagine the conversations in jail...

"I'm a drug addict and killed 3 people, why are you here?" - "I *bought* a loli-porn-comic" - "YOU SICK BASTARD, they should kill you!"

[Munsu]

That's a bit of a stretch of a comparison. Think more along the lines of marijuana's perception as a gateway drug leading to harder drugs. Interest in animated kiddie porn can be seen to lead to interest in real kiddie porn.

And the concern is that people who like violent movies, games, and comics will become desensitized to the violence and make them more likely to do the wrong thing in a bad situation. They'll be more likely to look the other way when faced with matters like genocide.

In contrast, religion should lead people to appreciate life and do the right thing, right? Yet throughout history we've seen many many cases were religion has been one of the main catalysts of bad behavior.

I like this analogy better, loli hentai is to child pornography what cigarette-shaped gum is to cigarettes.

Some like their meat raw, would that be considered a gateway to cannibalism? Should we punish people that eat raw meat? I like walking in my house in the nude and swim in my private swimming pool nude, should that be considered a gateway to public nudism? Should I be punished for that? Those are the type of connections that is going on here, they're trying to punish people for hypothetical situations not because of actual acts.

[KrayZ33]

Some like their meat raw, would that be considered a gateway to cannibalism?

I don't think that eating meat raw has anything to do with cannibalism ^^

Those are the type of connections that is going on here, they're trying to punish people for hypothetical situations not because of actual acts.

well you should see this from another point of view:

there are games and animes and movies which are very brutal and thus not allowed for children to play or watch
that is because, even though everything is fictive, it can influence people..

So if the lawgiver says "It is not allowed to possess movies in which people are killed" why would Animes be allowed which show the same thing?

edit: typo

[darkshadow]

The supreme court in the US already ruled banning simulated child pornography unconstitutional.... I'm not even in the US and I know this.

And no the article is deceptful, he actually had a lot of REAL child porn aswell, 99.9% of his sentance is due to that. It would be like getting sentenced to life for genociding everyone in GTA4, hey it's simulated murder isn't it?
No, it falls under free speech and the drawings don't actually hurt anyone.

[Munsu]

I don't think that eating meat raw has anything to do with cannibalism ^^

I'm willing to bet that many of the people that have become cannibalist, have started by eating some raw meat.

well you should see this from another point of view:

there are games and animes and movies which are very brutal and thus not allowed for children to play or watch
that is because, even though everything is fictive, it can influence people..

So if law says "It is not allowed to possess movies in which people are killed" why would Animes be allowed who show the same thing?

Is anyone advocating that we spread kiddie hentai to children?

And no the article is deceptful, he actually had a lot of REAL child porn aswell

Is that true? I certainly haven't read anything of that sort myself, and I would doubt that people would be making such a big deal about this case if the dude actually had real porn.

[Animeniax]

Shrug, I'm just presenting all the arguments, not my own beliefs on the subject.

But your examples are fallacious. There is no proven corollary between eating raw meat leading to eating human meat, neither does being nude in private lead to public nudity. Whereas looking at drawn kiddie porn is still looking at kiddie porn, and has a direct relationship to real kiddie porn, plus the fact both are illegal, like KrayZ said.

It's all subjective anyway, like the definition of decency and pornography.

The supreme court in the US already ruled banning simulated child pornography unconstitutional.... I'm not even in the US and I know this.

And no the article is deceptful, he actually had a lot of REAL child porn aswell, 99.9% of his sentance is due to that. It would be like getting sentenced to life for genociding everyone in GTA4, hey it's simulated murder isn't it?
No, it falls under free speech and the drawings don't actually hurt anyone.

Yes but Bush passed the Protect Act of 2008 that circumvents the Supreme Court ruling. The validity of the act is currently being challenged in the courts.

The article is about freedom of speech in comics and donating to the CBLDF, so they omit the facts about what else the guy was guilty of.

[darkshadow]

Yeah I read something like that on another forum yesterday, or perhaps that was a different case that was just highly similar, since I can't remember the names. Though the rest of my post still stands.

[KrayZ33]

I'm willing to bet that many of the people that have become cannibalist, have started by eating some raw meat.

cannibalism means that I eat my own kind, what has that to do with eating flesh from animals, which nearly everyone does

Is anyone advocating that we spread kiddie hentai to children?

no, and I don't do it either...

I wanted to make clear that Animes are handled the same as real Movies...

and if the movie is not allowed to be in possession of someone, why would the anime or mange, which shows the same thing (most likely in an even more extreme way), be allowed?

and that is why in most countries, it is not allowed to have such comics. (or at least it's hardly discussed)...for example in Germany it's not clear yet, it's not allowed to spread Lolicon-material (don't know how to call it). However, if you only possess it for yourself it's not (yet) forbidden as long as it is really fictive and not realistic.

The problem is that such cases don't show up very often... and it's pretty "new" for everyone, too. They really have to clear everything up and tell the people what is allowed and what not, at the moment I would call it a "grey zone"

[darkshadow]

What are you saying, I'm not really following, cause FYI anime and whatever do have ratings in place.

[Dark Dragon]

I think asking a bunch of anime/manga fans in their teens and early 20s won't yield the most objective or knowledgeable of discussions on the matter.

That wasn't my intent when i started this thread, i just wanted to see the various opinion on an anime fan forum and maybe get a decent discussion going.

I wanted to make clear that Animes are handled the same as real Movies...

and if the movie is not allowed to be in possession of someone, why would the anime or mange, which shows the same thing (most likely in an even more extreme way), be allowed?

and that is why in most countries, it is not allowed to have such comics. (or at least it's hardly discussed)...

Except that there is a very distinct difference between a real movie and an anime/comic one.

No one is harmed when a loli manga or anime is made but real child pornography usually require said child.

Laws are created in order to serve a purpose and when you overly extend or broaden the definition of said laws, the original intent tend to get lost.

And no the article is deceptful, he actually had a lot of REAL child porn aswell, 99.9% of his sentance is due to that

Can you perhaps link some sort of article that state this information?

If that is the case then I'm not exactly sure why someone like Neil Gaiman would go out of his way to help this dude.

[Munsu]

cannibalism means that I eat my own kind, what has that to do with eating flesh from animals, which nearly everyone does

It was a random example of how these guys make connections based on some theories and hypothetical situations, because I'm willing to bet that cannibalists out there like to eat meat raw so there's probably a connection there between raw meat and the cannibalists. But just because cannibals might like their meat raw it doesn't mean that raw meat eating people will become cannibals.

Of course I'm making shit up, but in the case were it was true, would you consider punishing people for eating raw meat as correct just because there's a chance someone might like it and evolve (assuming that's the correct order of things)?

no, and I don't do it either...

I wanted to make clear that Animes are handled the same as real Movies...

and if the movie is not allowed to be in possession of someone, why would the anime or mange, which shows the same thing (most likely in an even more extreme way), be allowed?

And that's the problem right there that animes are handled the same way as real movies. They're not the same thing, plus child porn is not fictitious... the kids actually perform the act, there's harm. It's not the same, it shouldn't be treated the same.

There are two sets of argument the way I see it, one would be if these fictitious images should be illegal, and secondly the severity of the punishment. Twenty years for graphic drawn pictures (about the same with real kiddie porn) hardly seems fair or correct.

All these media problems are the result of people looking for explanations as a way to rationalize bad behavior because I'm willing to bet that the kid being bullied in school and the abusive father had more to do with his actions rather him listening to Judas Priest or because of playing GTA.