Gundam 00 Season 2 Episode 15

[Kraco]

Hah hah, Ryll. So, you are saying Billy developed it all by himself and just threw in Eifman's name, because Graham was from that era as well, and so mentioning Eifman would immediately increase Mr. Bushido's trust in the machine? Well, I suppsose that works as well, but in all honesty Mr. Bushido doesn't need any encouragement. So, maybe Billy invented Eifman's participation from beyond the grave to get funding for the new suit in the first place...

The suit doesn't really need to drop like a stone after Trans-Graham is finished. It could stop the trans phase ten minutes early so that the pilot can land the suit. Good pilots don't grow on trees like fruits ripe for picking.

[DDBen]

Hah hah, Ryll. So, you are saying Billy developed it all by himself and just threw in Eifman's name, because Graham was from that era as well, and so mentioning Eifman would immediately increase Mr. Bushido's trust in the machine? Well, I suppsose that works as well, but in all honesty Mr. Bushido doesn't need any encouragement. So, maybe Billy invented Eifman's participation from beyond the grave to get funding for the new suit in the first place...

I actually don't even think that is adequate to explain it. Billy wasn't working on Mobile suits for the last 2 years he was with Sumeragi getting her drunk and keeping her company. That is what his life was focused on and only after Setsuna stopped by and picked her up did that change. So he somehow developed Trans-Graham and the entire mobile suit between however much time its been between episode 2 and episode 15. Its less then that even as I'm not positive which episode he actually rejoined the military to design suits again.

The issue isn't that Billy came up with something like trans-am. The issue is him saying it was somehow the results of Eifman's work when that is basically impossible. If they wanted to do that come up with something entirely new. That way its not a forgone conclusion Graham has absolutely no chance in hell of beating the twin-drives Trans-am alone which is the only way he is willing to fight in the first place.

The suit doesn't really need to drop like a stone after Trans-Graham is finished. It could stop the trans phase ten minutes early so that the pilot can land the suit. Good pilots don't grow on trees like fruits ripe for picking.

Actually it really does. The way the energy is used in trans-am is that ALL of the energy is immediately used to super power the gundam for a short period of time. I'm also pretty sure trans-am doesn't even last 10 minutes in the first place. There is really no spot on that mobile suit for a backup battery of any kind either but lets humor the possibility he made it so is somehow collects solar power that is enough to keep the suit in a state similar to that of a post trans-am Gundam. Then what? He activated his first so it should run out first even against any other one of the Gundams much less the OO-raiser which has 4X the capacity and power of a normal trans-am Gundam. Its a complete Kamikaze attack with no backup at all unless that is where Tieria's female innovator half went instead of the other battle but Graham doesn't work well with others and if that happens he had no idea it would.

So essentially there is no reason to give Graham a ability that is weaker then his enemies version of the SAME ability. If they want to make the fight interesting give him a new ability that billy came up with to suit his Piloting style and skills.

[Kraco]

You know, DDBen. You aren't anymore arguing by making good points. You are only being stubborn. For one, how the heck did Sumeragi and Billy live those years if neither worked at all? Sumeragi probably wasted her time drinking but I doubt Billy did. He's not that kind of a guy. I don't know where he worked but I could bet Ryllharu's right arm that on the side he was studying mobile suit technology to keep his skills up-to-date.

And how do you know the Trans-Graham sucks every last bit of energy out of the engine? In fact, don't you think that would be insane? If you designed a fighter plane that would drop like a rock after every flight, with no chance of safe landing, and tried to sell it your country's military, you reckon they would buy it, eh? Maybe if it cost next to nothing and didn't require a pilot, so that they could use it like a missile...

Besides, Trans-Graham doesn't need to be as good as the OO-raiser Gundam. For the simple reason that Setsuna is a sucky pilot unlike Mr. Bushido (although Bushido isn't a good soldier, either). Setsuna absolutely needs a much better machine than his opponent to win. The guy is full of justice but with no balls to back it up.

[Ryllharu]

Thanks for offering my limbs Kraco...

And how do you know the Trans-Graham sucks every last bit of energy out of the engine? In fact, don't you think that would be insane? If you designed a fighter plane that would drop like a rock after every flight, with no chance of safe landing, and tried to sell it your country's military, you reckon they would buy it, eh? Maybe if it cost next to nothing and didn't require a pilot, so that they could use it like a missile...

Besides, Trans-Graham doesn't need to be as good as the OO-raiser Gundam. For the simple reason that Setsuna is a sucky pilot unlike Mr. Bushido (although Bushido isn't a good soldier, either). Setsuna absolutely needs a much better machine than his opponent to win. The guy is full of justice but with no balls to back it up.

We don't know that the Trans-Graham sucks every last bit of energy because we haven't seen it run, but I think it had better work that way for it to make any sense. If it is supposed to mimic Trans-Am, it has to. The only exception is that, like you said, it shuts down after a much shorter time (unless it is overloaded like Nena's drive and can last that long) and somehow recycles what little un-used energy is left.

Is it completely insane? Absolutely. This is Graham "I don't need to worry about G-forces" Aker. Graham "Build me a custom Flag because I want to win using that machine" Aker nearly blacked himself out twice, and one of those times gave himself internal bleeding to chop off a Throne arm with its own beam saber.

He's exactly the kind of pilot who, so obsessed with his own ego, will get a special pass to disobey orders so he can fight Setsuna, and only Setsuna. The same pilot who doesn't kill off Gundam Meistars because he doesn't think they are in top fighting condition at the time.

So a machine that can equal God Gundam (not the one with Burning Fingers) for just a couple of minutes before dropping like a brick is perfect for Mr. Bushido. He doesn't give a shit as long as he can prove that he is better. In Graham's mind, he could defeat the opponent, and drift down to the ground while Trans-Graham is still on before it kills his MS.


This would also explain why Billy (who had deduced it all on his own, as I will continue to contest) didn't offer to put the Trans-Graham into any of the other mobile suits without a true GN drive. No one else would be stupid enough to have a feature that kills your mobile suit 20,000 feet in the air.


In any case, the operation of Trans-Graham is all speculation until we see episode 16.

[Buffalobiian]

The way the energy is used in trans-am is that ALL of the energy is immediately used to super power the gundam for a short period of time.

That's not quite the case. At first they said Trans-Am releases all of the stored GN particles for increased suit performance, but later they said explained that when the particles reach a critically low level, Trans-Am shuts off, reason being that a certain base level of particles is needed to self-regenerate - any lower, and regenerated energy will be lower than operational energy, meaning no actual charging. The Gundams were designed to maximise Trans-Am time at the expense of lowered performance afterwards so recharge was still possible.

They key here is how much stored particles are required for self-regeneration? If they operated normally post-Trans Am, how long would the suit last?

Recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives, only post-Trans-Am operational time, which there is no reason why it shouldn't exist, even for 30s or something.

As for other points on how this new suit will operate, I'll agree with Ryll's last point.

[NeoCybercoin]

Umm...I don't want to butt in on this one but correct me if I'm wrong ( because I dont think I read it ) but...couldn't it be that Graham's machine has more then one drive? I mean if Trans-Am does completely deplete a fake GN-Drive then it would make sense to build another one into the machine so that it doesn't drop dead after it uses Trans-Am?

I think it would be alot easier to put multiple Fake GN-Drives into a Mobile Suit then Original GN-Drives. Because apparently the Original ones are unique. Each and every single one of them. That's why most weren't competable with the GN-Drive from the 0 Gundam. If the Fake GN-Drives are all mass produced then that shouldn't be an issue.

[DDBen]

You know, DDBen. You aren't anymore arguing by making good points. You are only being stubborn. For one, how the heck did Sumeragi and Billy live those years if neither worked at all? Sumeragi probably wasted her time drinking but I doubt Billy did. He's not that kind of a guy. I don't know where he worked but I could bet Ryllharu's right arm that on the side he was studying mobile suit technology to keep his skills up-to-date.

I didn't say Billy didn't work although Sumeragi certainly wasn't working. Based on that though he wasn't in developing MS's for the last 2 years at the very least. He's qualified sure but figuring out Trans-graham based on the time between episode 4 and 15 while developing a new suit from the bottom up just seems like pure BS. Its not a natural progression and the point remains Eifman had zero reason to have any theory or data about trans-am when it hadn't been used yet and his time was being spent on just determining what the particles were and where they came from. Its also clear his data was being monitored so if he did have any information on the subject its doubtful it would have made it to any sort of backup or notes that he kept outside of his lab.

Episode 4 Timestamp 23:04-23:23

That is the point Billy officially signs up to start developing Mobile suits again. Plus its a position he has to ask his uncle to get him so its not like he's been a leader in the field while spending time with his sex toy at least.

Besides, Trans-Graham doesn't need to be as good as the OO-raiser Gundam. For the simple reason that Setsuna is a sucky pilot unlike Mr. Bushido (although Bushido isn't a good soldier, either). Setsuna absolutely needs a much better machine than his opponent to win. The guy is full of justice but with no balls to back it up.

What super skills of Graham are we talking about end of S1 he can only fight Setsuna to a draw while Setsuna's Gundam is in post Trans-am recharge while his suit is at normal Gundam stats for S1. To me that means Graham is the one who needs a better suit to actually compete with Setsuna by the end of Season 1.

So now for season 2 the question is did Graham get significantly better then Setsuna during the time skip. We have one real fight between the two to consider where Setsuna in the OO turned on trans-am and completely overwhelmed Graham until his machine overheated. Graham ran off after that to get this current suit finished. The way I see it Graham and Setsuna are pretty close to equal on piloting skills and Graham can not beat him without a suit without significantly higher performance. Trans-Graham should not have the potential to be anything close to OO-raisers Trans-AM and he has absolutely no backup and activated his first meaning it should run out first as well.

Currently there are a total of 3 things that can happen here. 1 Setsuna just leaves. 2 Setsuna's bullet wound somehow puts Graham in a winning position and he decides its not honorable to beat a wounded opponent and thus runs off for no reason. 3 a innovator/ali interferes.

Recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives, only post-Trans-Am operational time, which there is no reason why it shouldn't exist, even for 30s or something.

Are they likely to make Graham's suit not drop like a rock? Absolutely but he's still a sitting duck once it runs out and his capacity is still lower then that of the OO so he will run out of power first. That is ignoring the fact is suit while in Trans-Graham is still vastly inferior and that he's alone in the middle of nowhere and needs to fly back home after the fight.

Oh and have a timestamp and subber for when they changed the definition of Trans-am? I agree they said it releases all stored particles to temporarily super power the Gundam but I certainly don't recall any mention they needed to retain a certain amount of backup particles to recharge. Being that the original solar furnaces simply create GN particles I was under the impression they are constantly making particles and when trans-am uses them all up it just shuts down due to lack of power and the suits continue making particles thus never running out and not requiring any of the particles present to create new ones.

@NeoCybercoin

Adding to a discussion is always welcome in my eye's so don't worry about something silly like Butting in.

However they show you the back of the suit it and it clearly has only 1 drive in it.

[NeoCybercoin]

Yeah I forgot to add that but those things on his shoulders could very well be a Fake GN-Drive with a new look =\

[Ryllharu]

Recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives, only post-Trans-Am operational time, which there is no reason why it shouldn't exist, even for 30s or something.

I'd also like a little bit of clarification on this point. What exactly do you mean by "recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives" ?

The Thrones had to charge their Gundams' GN drives constantly in outer space. At least one of them remarked on how long it took, another commented about how spending time in space alone or on missions sucked, and another one retreated after they started to run out of particles. (Actually, all three times might have been Nena.)

The fake-GN drives that the HRL, Union and AEU recieved were based off the models that the Thrones used.


If Trans-Graham depletes the Masarou's particles at a incredibly rapid rate, I'm not sure how he can even be sure of the quantity remaining in the drive accurately enough to shut it off giving him sufficient time to land or flee.

Wouldn't it depend entirely on how he fought? Using the beam sabers more (which are laced with GN particles) or foregoing them completely could dramatically affect the amount of operational time he had.

[NeoCybercoin]

I'd also like a little bit of clarification on this point. What exactly do you mean by "recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives" ?

The Thrones had to charge their Gundams' GN drives constantly in outer space. At least one of them remarked on how long it took, another commented about how spending time in space alone or on missions sucked, and another one retreated after they started to run out of particles. (Actually, all three times might have been Nena.)

The fake-GN drives that the HRL, Union and AEU recieved were based off the models that the Thrones used.


If Trans-Graham depletes the Masarou's particles at a incredibly rapid rate, I'm not sure how he can even be sure of the quantity remaining in the drive accurately enough to shut it off giving him sufficient time to land or flee.

Wouldn't it depend entirely on how he fought? Using the beam sabers more (which are laced with GN particles) or foregoing them completely could dramatically affect the amount of operational time he had.

Judging from the things on his shoulders and hips....I'd say he has 4 drives. Because they look like altered ones to me.

[Ryllharu]

Judging from the things on his shoulders and hips....I'd say he has 4 drives. Because they look like altered ones to me.

I don't know...the image from last episode made them just look like joints. They certainly shine a different color when Trans-Graham is on. Too soon to tell.


Screencap shamelessly stolen from RandomC, courtesy of Omni


Moving aside from the Trans-Graham issue, what about Louise connecting to Veda? The modification made to her should have only extended to her arm, but perhaps the reason for the pills was because they also connected her to Veda. With some of the true Innovators now so much stardust (or traitor, like Tieria), perhaps Louise has been activated as a backup?

She's had the eye sparklies before (just barely) but this time looks significantly different.

[DDBen]

Louise is destined to be generic love interest of a hero who gets plugged into the uber killing machine in the end.

They already said the innovator Mobile Armor is the prototype for her future suit think of her as Stella, four, Lala, or a cyber newtype or whatever else we want to refer to her as from any previous Gundam series. I can't say I honestly find her plot line remotely interesting because it just comes off as completely generic girl in distress from pretty much any gundam.

[Ryllharu]

Good call. I'm one of the few people who actually watched G Gundam all the way to the end. Since you mention it, it totally echoes the Devil Gundam and Rain.

Apparently, it is a pretty overused plot device in Gundam series, not to mention Sunrise series as a whole.

[Buffalobiian]

Oh and have a timestamp and subber for when they changed the definition of Trans-am? I agree they said it releases all stored particles to temporarily super power the Gundam but I certainly don't recall any mention they needed to retain a certain amount of backup particles to recharge. Being that the original solar furnaces simply create GN particles I was under the impression they are constantly making particles and when trans-am uses them all up it just shuts down due to lack of power and the suits continue making particles thus never running out and not requiring any of the particles present to create new ones.

Okay, I tried looking, but I couldn't find the timestamp anywhere, meaning this somehow got imprinted in my. In other words, no, my thoughts were not supported by the anime, so my point there was moot.

However, if you are interested in why I thought it made sense (and it still does), here's why:

Firstly, at what rate does the GN drive generate GN particles? At a higher, equal, or lower rate than usual consumption? If it's higher or equal to usual consumption, I failed to see why suits were forced into lowered-performance mode which greatly endangers the suit. It would be wise for the option to be available as to lower performance for faster recharge or simply not recharge to maintain normal performance.

If rate of particle generation is lower than rate of usage, then normally, Gundams would have an operational time limit which, if one exists, I'm not aware of. As seen from the fight with the PMC first season, you wear out the pilot, not the suit.

The display monitor on screen also lead me to believe that it shows the amount of stored particles, since it's always going low when they show Trans Am at its limit, yet I've never seen it hit Zero before. However, 00's system clearly shows performance, or output. I think we can assume it's not a reliable source since changing display stats are entirely possible.

I can only really think of 1 counter argument for this, and it's that the lowered performance isn't simply because particles ran out, but also mechanical overheating etc.

There isn't any solid quotes to support this though. Somewhere down the line, I must have also strayed from one term to another: regenerate -> self-regenerate -> self propagate -> particles must exist to do so.

I'd also like a little bit of clarification on this point. What exactly do you mean by "recharging is not an issue for fake GN-Drives" ?

See above. Basically, my previous idea involved the concept that a certain level of GN particles must remain in the Drive for it to self-regenerate enough particles AND operate. Fake-GN drives would not have needed reserves, however much it would be, and hence could use to to safely land, escape etc. They didn't have to worry about self recharge, as they use external sources anyway. We've never seen real GN drives refilling each other, so given if they can't, self recharge would take highest priority, even over battle performance.

Moving aside from the Trans-Graham issue, what about Louise connecting to Veda? The modification made to her should have only extended to her arm, but perhaps the reason for the pills was because they also connected her to Veda. With some of the true Innovators now so much stardust (or traitor, like Tieria), perhaps Louise has been activated as a backup?

She's had the eye sparklies before (just barely) but this time looks significantly different.

Before, I remember a lot of GW speculated it was a bug installed on Louis (knowingly or not), allowing Ribbons to spy through it.

She never showed any signs she had access to info, so it's probably one-sided.

[masamuneehs]

wow. you guys. seriously, are you fighting about the REALISM of technology in the Gundam00 universe? Seriously? That's it? That's what's being discussed?

There is only ONE RULE OF TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT in any Gundam series.

"Whatever technological advancement is seen as most advantageous to model kit, figurine and video game sales will be realized in the most profit-maximizing fashion possible. This includes not only the size and scope of technological advancements, but their timing within the series as well."

That's it. That's all. That's how it works.

I suggest we move on to some fresher ground.

Hercules. Wow. Guy comes out of left field, spits clam chowder in Sergei's face, then proceeds to break A-LAWs over his knee like a rag doll. All without a single mobile suit battle. Fucking wow. I wish they'd make an entire show about stuff like this.

Unfortunately, the matter of fact is that Hercules just showed up two episodes ago. So, at best, he's cannon fodder. He's had his moment in the sun, and there's little chance he'll ever be close to where he is now. However, he did pull off the best (and simplest) strategical move of the entire show, so hats off to harper there.

Tieria bringing blankets to passed out Ptolemy crew bitches? That was about the most surprising thing that happened in this episode.

Except, of course, when I actually found myself ENJOYING the conversation between Setsuna and Marina. Yes, I did. It was so entirely ordinary that I couldn't help but enjoy it. The fact that Marina isn't very self-assured makes her pacifism almost forgiveable, because you get the sense that all she's doing is what little she thinks she can, and it doesn't even seem like she's trying to manipulate others.

wow..... I have the ship that has been a pain on my ass ever since season 1 right in front of me all broken up and defenseless, 2 gundams down, one recharging, and to top it off I have more then enough suit to kill them 10 times over...... Oh shit a coup, which I can do nottin about right at this moment...... should I kill them and be rid of them once and for all or run away for no apparent reason hmmmm......... hard choice........ think damn it think.... oh I got it WE RUN.

This Gundam series is so retarded.

This quote is quoted for truth. Good Sweet Baby Velociraptor Jesus, this made absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever. We've even established that the real heavy hitters in Kati's squad have "licenses", so why the fuck are they pulling out also?

Lastly, I'd like to comment about the ED. In this viewer's opinion, it is ridiuclously full of foreshadowing in ways that are almost as bad as simply spoiling the future of the show.

Let's look.
First, we have the beautiful shots of the abandoned, decayed Gundams. A shot is given with all but Tieria's mech of the cockpit clearly open. This gives us a very strong impression that not only will the Gundams fall into disuse (aka, the fighting stops) but all but Tieria make it out alive. I'll go out on a limb here and say that this sounds pretty damn plausible to me.

Next they review and advance some of the shots from the last ED. We have, in order:
Saji pulling Louise's hand, grasping control of her gun (love conquering violence)
Tieria turning from the shot mirror (self-blame/hate) and aiming it at Regene's shadow (the realization of resolve and lack of confusion)
Al and Soma embracing amidst the blurring reflection of passing A-LAW mechs (love amidst social discord)
Anew pulling New Lockon into the veil (budding affection between concealed agendas)
the veil flying away (everything coming out)
Then the pairs of lovers' clothing amidst the imagery from the shots of the ruined Gundams ( ' shedding skin' / an end to old ways tied to the abandoned relics. Again, Tieria is an exception)
Then the final shot, which I don't think really needs to be explained.

So, yeah, either we're about to get totally Punk'D by a surprise ending, or the ED is as subtle as my erection in a Osaka bath house. Which brings me to the final scene, which makes me smile because Graham is being ridiculously homo again.

edit - and shame on BSS for those hastily translated and joke lines in the post ED scene. are they aspiring to be like Your-Mom now?

[Ryllharu]

As much as I like to move on to other topics, not a hell of a lot happened that was worth commenting on. Annoying kids signing *again* (children's choir is one of the most hated musical styles, I am no exception), Louise going Veda connection such a short part, A-LAWS are morons, and the coup was over and done with nothing to talk about until next time.

That leaves us to bullshit over technology and as flawed as it is, the continuity.

[I]Firstly, at what rate does the GN drive generate GN particles? At a higher, equal, or lower rate than usual consumption? If it's higher or equal to usual consumption, I failed to see why suits were forced into lowered-performance mode which greatly endangers the suit. It would be wise for the option to be available as to lower performance for faster recharge or simply not recharge to maintain normal performance.

If rate of particle generation is lower than rate of usage, then normally, Gundams would have an operational time limit which, if one exists, I'm not aware of. As seen from the fight with the PMC first season, you wear out the pilot, not the suit.

I can only really think of 1 counter argument for this, and it's that the lowered performance isn't simply because particles ran out, but also mechanical overheating etc.

regenerate -> self-regenerate -> self propagate -> particles must exist to do so.

Fact 1: There is no operational time limit on normal operation, or if it exists, it is over 24 or 36 or how ever many hours that desert battle was.
Fact 2: Trans-Am forces the solar furnaces into a low power mode.

From Eifman's discussion about topological defects, the solar furnaces (the true GN drives) in terms of cosmology are possibly recreating the strange forms of matter and phase transitions that existed immediately after the Big Bang. Why Jupiter makes this possible is probably totally made up. Or they're extradimensional doorways, who the hell cares.

Since they used to use the term "solar furnaces" as I am now, it is probably something akin to a fusion reactor. The only difference is, when you run Trans-Am, they become low output, like a white-dwarf instead of a regular star. Perhaps the GN particles are the byproduct, rather than the energy source. This would explain why the solar furnaces don't need to ever be refilled. Fake-GN drives run off GN particles, which is why they need to be refilled and why Nena's weapons caused the strange radiation that mutilated Louise. They mentioned that Gundams equipped with the solar furnaces don't cause the same effects.

Basically, my previous idea involved the concept that a certain level of GN particles must remain in the Drive for it to self-regenerate enough particles AND operate. Fake-GN drives would not have needed reserves, however much it would be, and hence could use to to safely land, escape etc. They didn't have to worry about self recharge, as they use external sources anyway. We've never seen real GN drives refilling each other, so given if they can't, self recharge would take highest priority, even over battle performance.

Here's where you are a little bit incorrect. In both this season and last season, the true solar furnaces are used to charge the Ptolemy. Every so often, a Gundam would have to go back up (usually Tieria volunteered because he hated Earth) and charge the batteries. Sumeragi mentions it multiple times in season 1. In season two, connecting the solar furnaces to the Ptolemy allows it to run it's own version of Trans-Am.

The solar furnaces are surely equipped for transfer between themselves or to other things, but as I speculated above, perhaps the GN particles are the byproduct rather than the power source.

[Yukimura]

I don't have time for time stamping but I wanted to throw in my support for this statement

Perhaps the GN particles are the byproduct, rather than the energy source. This would explain why the solar furnaces don't need to ever be refilled.

I can't remember where I originally heard/saw this but the idea that solar furnaces produce GN particles as a by product of their perpetual energy generation process seems familiar. I checked a few Gundam knowledge sources including Gundam Wiki and this idea seems to be supported. GN Particles have lots of awesome applications but I always felt the true goal of Aeolia's theoretical work was in solving energy problems and the generation and practical applications of the spiffy particles were side bonuses to the system he came up with.

Anyway, since Eifman was investigating the properties of GN particles and Trans-Am seems more related to using a lot of GN particles at once than to the energy generation system that produces them I could live with it if the idea that he might have theorized something like if you had lots of these particles and you did X,Y, and Z with them then maybe you could get a big performance boost for your mobile suit for a little while. I doubt any theories he came up with would have been as well thought out as the Trans-Am CB uses since one can assume Aeolia had much more time to think about it but the idea is essentially, use massive amounts of GN particles in some way to increase performance for a short time.