Is EA's SecuRom/DRM really that bad?

[Animeniax]

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the DRM-doomsayers and I definitely want to support game developers. As a failed programmer myself, I know how tedious and difficult coding can be so I want programmers and designers to be compensated for their work, but I also don't want any hassles installing, playing, then uninstalling a game I bought.

I think I got a bit caught up in the anti-SecuROM hysteria, but the original purpose of the thread was to find out all I could about SecuROM to see if it was worth skipping games like Far Cry 2 just to avoid it. I read a lot of reviews, mostly complaints from people on the anti-establishment bandwagon. The input from you guys on the forum has helped too.

I think the answer is still up in the air, since I'm not a privacy-nut and I'm not a corporate shill. I bought a copy of Far Cry 2 anyway.

[Dark Dragon]

Unfortunately not everyone is online and can download large amounts of content. With bandwidth usage-based fees coming to ISPs soon, how much more are you paying to get this online content? I currently have a copy of the Orange Box that I can't play because of network usage restrictions where I'm at. You think I'll buy another Valve game instead of just downloading a hacked copy? And how long do you think it will be before the online content is available for free via torrent?

I think you misunderstood what i meant. I don't mean that they should solely rely on an online distribution method, in fact i bought my copy of Orange Box from retail. I understand that not everyone has a readily available high speed internet line, i was suggesting something along the line of those companies that offer better online contents that attract people so they would buy a legit copy to play online instead of pirating it.

Online contents has already been available in the form of private servers and such, but there is a drastic different between playing on a private server with a handful of peoples and playing on something like battlenet. The point is to do things that will help reduce piracy so developers are not forced to implement things such as securom which i my opinion so far has not help with the piracy problem one bit.

Piracy is something that i don't think will ever disappear. Protection software are cracked as fast as they are released. Lawsuits are long, costly and even if they do succeed there are always new pirates to replace those that get taken out. I just think that most of these direct strategies have proved to be rather ineffective, so instead of wasting more time and money these companies can work on providing experiences that you simply cannot get by playing alone.

[Animeniax]

Oh right, I misunderstood where you were going with that. In the end I think that is the best way to appeal to fans to make them want to buy in, instead of forcing them to jump through hoops to play a game.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, on a sightly different topic, how is SecuRom's security issues different from the BMG Rootkit?

I'll own up now, I'm in the paranoia band regarding SecuRom since the BMG incident, though it didn't affect me personally.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

What sucks about researching this topic is sorting out which guys have facts, which guys have opinions, and which guys have brains.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit2: So main issues with SecuRom is that upon uninstall, it leaves registry entries on the system regarding license info that can't be deleted. This implies that it (a) may be having more rights than it should, (b) that malware may find ways to utilize these keys to their keys undeletable?

Most good comments were pre-Mass Effect though.

[Dark Dragon]

Well, on a sightly different topic, how is SecuRom's security issues different from the BMG Rootkit?

I'll own up now, I'm in the paranoia band regarding SecuRom since the BMG incident, though it didn't affect me personally.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

What sucks about researching this topic is sorting out which guys have facts, which guys have opinions, and which guys have brains.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit2: So main issues with SecuRom is that upon uninstall, it leaves registry entries on the system regarding license info that can't be deleted. This implies that it (a) may be having more rights than it should, (b) that malware may find ways to utilize these keys to their keys undeletable?

Most good comments were pre-Mass Effect though.

Yeah, the main issue with the latest securom is that it just leave an irremovable entry in your registry even after you've remove all games related to securom. That kind of crap makes people nervous regardless of how "harmless" it might seem to be.

One of my earlier post in the thread contain a link that has instruction on how to remove those entries from your registry. If you really want to play games with securom, what you can do is do a regular install, remove securom and then go find a no-cd crack online.

[darkshadow]

Fallout 3:

just got off the phone with bethesda tech support, about securom install problems

the person on the phone informed me that you have to uninstall any cd writing programs or image programs like nero, roxio, sonic, alcohol, daemon tools etc and only have the default windows cd writer on your computer...Saying that securom recognizes these as piracy tools basically. They also said if this doesn't work then you have to contact securom yourself about the issue. She told me there is nothing bethesda can do about this problem because of the securom software. Basically according to the call, it is securom's fault, let them handle it. She said we will have to wait for securom to release a fix if this doesn't work so my advice is to start harassing them.

i also asked if they have been getting many calls related to these issues of not being able to install the game, she said yes naturally.

She also said these image and writing programs tell securom to read the disc incorrectly hence no wonder none of us have the real game according to securom.

i have already uninstalled my cd writing programs but securom still persists in not letting me play my game.

I have Nero on my computer and if I cannot install this game without uninstalling this perfectly legitimate piece of software, I will put everything back into the package and return it to Future Shop after letting Bethesda know what I think of them and their decision to treat me like a thief AFTER taking 62 dollars out of my pocket.

Bethesda forums.

yeah....

[Kraco]

This thread has been most informative. Last year I bought Jade Empire (for PC) and this summer I thought I'd replay it (I'm not much of a gamer anyway). But it wouldn't launch (and the bloody installation takes half an hour, so it's such a bother). I couldn't figure out why, despite trying other video driver versions and anything else I could possibly come up with. Then I read this thread, downloaded a no-dvd exe, and the game launched immediately. Fucking SecuROM...

[Buffalobiian]

Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

Then on the court file against Spore:

The operating system of a computer utilizes different parts or levels of the computer, determined by the need of the software for access and control over different aspects of the hardware or software. These parts are commonly called Ring 0, 1, 2 and 3. Ring 0 is sometimes referred to as the Kernel. The Kernel is usually used by the Operating System to run the computer and it has access to everything on the computer. Ring 3, which is the normal zone used by Software has much lower permissions. SecuROM represents that it installs itself to Ring 3 (by having a part of itself called the UA7service.exe written to Ring 3), when in fact it installs its primarily operational code to Ring 0.

Writing itself to the Kernal of the computer allows SeruCOM to have control over all other programs and processes on the computer, including equipment that computer users are legally permitted and entitled to possess (e.g., two cd/dvd drives on the computer).

Needless to say, it's unremovable, and was secretly installed. Rootkit? I think so.

I think I've found the concrete facts I've been looking for



And this is right on:

"The sad thing is you don't have to install a piece of software to copy it, so looking for burning software post install doesn't fix anything at all."

[David Craft]

My Biggest problem with these DRM protected games using things like Securom is that some of the 'features' are a complete violation of my computer. Its my damn computer and any program that goes and installs things I can't remove easily I consider malicious.

Also some of these games will refuse to install if you have certain software running. Like Fallout3 I believe refused to install because I have daemon tools.... a program which I use for ligament purposes (I run VMware and use it to emulate such things like Linux CDs). Again its MY computer and a game that I just payed $50 to play has no right to refuse to install... OR install stuff I can't UNinstall....

I am a software developer myself and dislike people that pirate games, however I feel no remorse AT ALL for pirating games such as these. I bought the damn things and still went and got the pirated version. Its bad when I trust some 'hackers' version as more trustworthy on my system then the original version....


Which BTW, Spore has become one of the most pirated games because of backlash to the DRM. Ironic Justice I say....


People are going to pirate software... Trying to strong arm these ppl only ends up pissing off the legitimate costumers...


~David

[animus]

Or do like I'm doing and get Fallout 3 for the 360. Hassle free, though it just won't look as good than on a nice computer.

[Animeniax]

I can't play most FPSes on the X360 and I hate playing games like Fallout3 on the console. Some games just play better with the keyboard and mouse.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm going to end up buying then cracking Fallout 3. I mainly use my PS3 for multiplayer racer/fighting games, since it's hooked up to a little CRT TV.

I'll consider Far Cry 2 as well, if the cracks work with online multiplayer. Bethesda insists that their SecuRom is only used for a disc check. While that may be true, I'm still trying to figure out if it leaves any registry entries like the fully functional versions. The registry entries supposedly only leave license information there for the more invasive install limits. Getting over the initial "You Lied!" moment, it's mainly the fact that SecuRom stuffs around with "emulation software" as well as the disk check, which honestly does nothing as you don't have to "play" to "copy" the disc anyway.

What I found interesting was that Bethesda said "we'll be using the same disc check as Oblivion". This was the first time I learned about the disk check with Oblivion. When I bought it, I burnt a copy of it with Nero (only), and I've been running off that ever since. Never picked up that it was a copy at all.

[animus]

I can't play most FPSes on the X360 and I hate playing games like Fallout3 on the console. Some games just play better with the keyboard and mouse.

Fallout 3 really isn't a FPS, it just looks like one.

[Animeniax]

Yeah, I was listing it separate from FPSes. I can't play FPSes and I prefer not to play Fallout3 type games on the console, so it's cracks or putting up with SecuROM for me, since not playing these games isn't an option.

I got FarCry 2 today. Pretty cool game so far. I'm using the Razor crack provided by darkshadow (thanks again man) and it's working great. The game reminds me of Boiling Point, this sandbox open mission game that came out in 2005 that was too buggy to be successful.

[Buffalobiian]

I got FarCry 2 today. Pretty cool game so far. I'm using the Razor crack provided by darkshadow (thanks again man) and it's working great.

Can you play online with the crack, Ani?

[Animeniax]

Doubt it, since with the crack, you don't need a serial key. No serial key probably means no online validation. I don't play games online these days.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay, thanks Ani.

I found this on wiki, so its accuracy is debatable:

The developing corporation Bethesda producing Fallout 3 in an interview assured the public that they would not be utilising any remote-activation DRM but merely the basic disc checking version. However shortly after the release customers discover that this is not true, and instead the game contains a version of SecuROM v7.36 which checks for the disc as previously stated but also has an invasive kernel-mode driver which checks for commonly used CD/DVD writing software on the system and if detected, the installation is aborted. The version sold on Steam does not have this feature.

Kernal mode, aka Ring 0, aka rootkit. Does that mean it runs (as in installs the registry entries) as soon as you try to install now? If that's the case, cracking it wouldn't keep it off your computer anymore.

[David Craft]

meh, probably. In that case the only hope is to install a copy (illegally downloaded) that has already had the crap ripped out of it... >_<

which checks for commonly used CD/DVD writing software on the system and if detected, the installation is aborted

So what, we aren't allowed to burn CDs/DVDs any more? For any reason? Thats bullshit! I think software companies step over the line when they won't install because another type of software is on the machine. I mean whats to stop them from saying "Can't install because our competitor's GAME is on your system! Please uninstall it before continuing!" There has got to be SOME kind of legal issues with this....

[Animeniax]

A few game publisher companies have class action lawsuits filed against them over SecuROM, all pretty recent, so no outcome yet. In the end, they'll probably make the game companies give us $5 rebates towards our next purchase of one of their games.

[animus]

meh, probably. In that case the only hope is to install a copy (illegally downloaded) that has already had the crap ripped out of it... >_<



So what, we aren't allowed to burn CDs/DVDs any more? For any reason? Thats bullshit! I think software companies step over the line when they won't install because another type of software is on the machine. I mean whats to stop them from saying "Can't install because our competitor's GAME is on your system! Please uninstall it before continuing!" There has got to be SOME kind of legal issues with this....

Sounds like someone's mad they can't burn their hentai any more.

Joking aside, you can't blame them all that much. Publishing and developing a game for the PC has huge piracy risks. They'd make way more money on the console versions, which is the way you see the industry moving. I'd imagine for PC games, atleast upwards of 40% of the people who're playing those new games/releases have it pirated.