Naruto Chapter 420

[Abdula]

Naruto has shitty chakra control. It was said in the beginning of the series. Its the reason he couldn't use bushin jutsu, it was said again when Kakashi thought them how to walk up trees, it was said again during the chuunin exam when Kakashi brought in Ebisu to help Naruto improve his chakra control. Right after that it was said again by Jiraiya but he said in Naruto's case not being at good chakra control wasn't important because he has so much chakra that he doesn't need to be concerned about wasting his chakra.

As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do. Thus its logical to think that the creator of a technique would be better at the technique that anyone who simply learned or copied the technique. Therefore Kakashi>Sasuke, Minato>Naruto.

Anyway there is another thing, you go on about the amount of chakra Naruto can put out in a burst but what does that matter? You said you need to have exceptional power and exceptional control to use rasengan but the power of the rasengan depends on how much control you have, i.e. how much chakra you can fit into the rasengan. So the better you are at chakra control the more chakra you'll be able to squeeze into the rasengan, so it would make sense that someone with exceptional chakra control would have a more powerful rasengan.

What is it about 3 years passing by that you guys aren't getting? You do realize, that Ebisu was going to take Naruto and focus train his chakra control right? This is a TRAINABLE thing. In three years, one can improve on it and NOT suck at it. Not to mention his chakra control became a lot better during the water walking training after jiraiya removed his seal. In the three years since that episode, starting 2 episodes later, he's had plenty of opportunity to train his chakra control. I'm not talking nonsense here. Hate the character if you want. Move on from this topic if you want. None of that changes that Naruto does not necessarily suck at chakra control any longer.

Yeah uh huh, so you're willing to believe that in the three years where Naruto learned absolutely nothing he suddenly became good at chakra control, ignoring the fact that he has no talent for it, and the guy who trained him in chakra control was the same guy who told him not to bother with it. Well you can believe that if you want but it still doesn't help your point. Even if he some how mastered chakra control in the three years he was with Jiraiya it doesn't explain how he was able to use rasengan in the first place.

I missed your stupid comment about Kakashi's rasengan being useless in battle and him lacking power. Now you're just spouting bull.

[Yukimura]

Naruto had shitty chakra control up until around the time he did the tree training, then he got a little bit better, then he started the walk on water training, and he got a little bit better, then he learned the Rasengan, and he got even better still. The fact that he couldn't do those things and then learned to do them demonstrates that his ability to control chakra has improved as the series has gone on. From what you've said it seems like you don't think Naruto has made any progress at all between chapter 420 and chapter 1. Perhaps it can be argued that he's made the least progress of anyone but I don't see how you can justify saying "his chakra control sucks" using "way back in part 1 he had problems controlling his chakra" as the basis for your assertion. It's like you'd make the point that the Naruto in chapter 1 was able to do all the same things with his chakra that the Naruto can do now because his ability to control chakra hasn't increased at all.

As to technique strength correlating to technique creator, look at what Sasuke has done with Chidori. Kakashi has never demonstrated that he does anything with Raikiri but stab people with it, but Sasuke has taken the original idea and created two new, and I would argue more useful, variations on it. Whether Sasuke's version of the original technique is 'stronger' isn't something I think we can reasonably judge but if I had to choose between being able to do Kakashi's Raikiri and being able to do Sasuke's Chidori, as well as Chidori Nagashi, as well as whatever he calls it when he throws it I'd definitely choose Sasuke's line of abilities for their versatility.

I agree with your assessment on the Rasengan however, the highest compression ratio and rotational speed is going to have the highest destructive power. Still, I think the fact that Naruto uses two separate minds to create his Rasengan raises the possibility that his could be more powerful than a single mind Rasengan in the same way that a dual core processor has better performance than a single core processor when computing two unrelated things. No matter how good one's chakra control is, outputting a steady stream of chakra and rotating that chakra both compete for mental resources, thus doing both at once would be less efficient then being able to do them in parallel on two different platforms.

[Archangel]

My last attempt to make you see the obvious Barles



As you can see Jiraya's method of training never involved chakra control, he always believed that he should focus on using naruto's huge amount of chakra to develop bigger and better techniques for him to use



Jiraya also knew this, so why would he train naruto's chakra control instead of just using the kyuubi's chakra to improve his fighting style?

I'm seriously done trying to make you understand this. You don't even have to admit you're wrong even tough you probably already know you are and that's why you're just spouting random bullshit now, just drop the subject instead of continuing to make a fool of yourself.

As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do.

Hmm i have my doubts about this. If what you said was true that would imply that after that jutsu was developed there wouldn't be any room for improvement and we have seen the rasengan being improved quite a number of times ( ultimate rasengan, oodama rasengan ). I really couldn't compare the raikiri to the chidori right now so i can't say that one is stronger than the other, i think we'll have to wait and see.

[Uchiha Barles]

Naruto has shitty chakra control. It was said in the beginning of the series. Its the reason he couldn't use bushin jutsu, it was said again when Kakashi thought them how to walk up trees, it was said again during the chuunin exam when Kakashi brought in Ebisu to help Naruto improve his chakra control. Right after that it was said again by Jiraiya but he said in Naruto's case not being at good chakra control wasn't important because he has so much chakra that he doesn't need to be concerned about wasting his chakra.

As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do. Thus its logical to think that the creator of a technique would be better at the technique that anyone who simply learned or copied the technique. Therefore Kakashi>Sasuke, Minato>Naruto.

Anyway there is another thing, you go on about the amount of chakra Naruto can put out in a burst but what does that matter? You said you need to have exceptional power and exceptional control to use rasengan but the power of the rasengan depends on how much control you have, i.e. how much chakra you can fit into the rasengan. So the better you are at chakra control the more chakra you'll be able to squeeze into the rasengan, so it would make sense that someone with exceptional chakra control would have a more powerful rasengan.

Yeah uh huh, so you're willing to believe that in the three years where Naruto learned absolutely nothing he suddenly became good at chakra control, ignoring the fact that he has no talent for it, and the guy who trained him in chakra control was the same guy who told him not to bother with it. Well you can believe that if you want but it still doesn't help your point. Even if he some how mastered chakra control in the three years he was with Jiraiya it doesn't explain how he was able to use rasengan in the first place.

I missed your stupid comment about Kakashi's rasengan being useless in battle and him lacking power. Now you're just spouting bull.

You're about about kakashi's rasengan. I have a shitty tranlation that made me believe that kakashi saying he failed at elemental recomposition + rasengan, was actually him saying he sucked at the rasengan, period. That's about all you're right on though. Naruto did not spend 3 years of training to learn nothing. At the very least, 1) He gained access to more tails, and 2) he gained superior tactical ability in combat. The second thing I just mentioned is along the lines of those basic things that everyone has historically complained about naruto lacking. I see no reason why in 2.5 years, that would be the only basic thing he's trained in. He probably spent much of that time refining his chakra control, his stealth tactics, his tracking tactics, his general awareness, things of that nature. So yeah, I'll go ahead and believe and those three years did result in improved chakra control, and in general, improved basic abilities.

Ok, you bring up a good point about the rasengan depending highly on the control factor, and yukimura refines it by mentioning a compression ratio and a rotational speed. I'll go ahead and mention the description of the technique. It requires the highest chakra output possible and the highest control possible for it to work. I also mentioned that the ball of chakra was not to lose its shape no matter what it came in contact with. In terms of yukimura's vocabulary, if you have 2 rasengans that are the same size, the one with more chakra in it, is the one with the higher compression ratio. So yeah, burst chakra output would matter in creating the rasengan.

@Archangel:

Jiraiya never believed in training naruto's chakra control...yet, he taught naruto to walk on water, and realized that naruto's difficulty in learning to walk on water came from lack of CHAKRA CONTROL on account of orochimaru's seal. He then taught him the rasengan..which involved training one's chakra control like no other technique we've seen thus far. He also taught him how to access and control his demon chakra. Some things you can get from what the characters in the show say. Other things, you have to get from what they DO.

[Abdula]

I do believe you guys are simply incapable of understanding me. First off all I never said Naruto was incapable of improving his chakra control skills. In fact during his training Jiraiya mentioned that he taught him to walk on water and made him use the balloons and the rubber ball just so Naruto could get to the level of chakra control necessary for him to use rasengan. Uchiha Barles however kept mentioning how you needed exceptional chakra control to use rasengan which is true and I said Naruto managed to skirt that by using the shadow clones. So even though he doesn't have exceptional chakra control he can still use the technique because he has the extra hands.

And again with the original technique thing you guys don't understand what I mean. Yuki used the perfect example of what Sasuke did after learning chidori. After learning chidori he managed to take what he learned from that technique and created new techniques that were not only better suited to him but techniques that the creator of chidori himself is probably not even capable of. You guys seem to think I mean Kakashi taught Sasuke chidori so anything Sasuke does with it is not going to match up to Kakashi's technique and thats not what I meant at all. Sasuke took the technique and made it his, just like Archangel mentioned Naruto's oodama rasengan and fuuton rasengan. If you create the technique yourself it will be more powerful than something you simply learned or copied so while Naruto's oodama rasengan and fuuton rasengan are undoubtedly more powerful than the fourth's original rasengan. I would think the fourth would be better at rasengan that Naruto is simply because he created the technique therefore it would be most suited to him.

So yeah, burst chakra output would matter in creating the rasengan

Like I said that only makes a difference if you are able to fit that excess chakra into the rasengan and to do that you have to have exceptional chakra control, and Naruto is said to have no talent for it. Minato on the other hand was said to be exceptionally talented, the fact that he created the technique is proof enough.

I agree with your assessment on the Rasengan however, the highest compression ratio and rotational speed is going to have the highest destructive power. Still, I think the fact that Naruto uses two separate minds to create his Rasengan raises the possibility that his could be more powerful than a single mind Rasengan in the same way that a dual core processor has better performance than a single core processor when computing two unrelated things. No matter how good one's chakra control is, outputting a steady stream of chakra and rotating that chakra both compete for mental resources, thus doing both at once would be less efficient then being able to do them in parallel on two different platforms.

What you seem to be missing is its not two different minds. What made the rasengan an A rank tehcnique was the degree of chakra control neccessary to use it. Creating the rasengan involves three processes. Releasing the chakra, compressing the chakra and rotating the chakra. Naruto couldn't do all of that with one hand so using a clone and a total of three hands he split the work up. So using the clone doesn't improve on Naruto's basic skills at all it just splits the tasks up so the work load is something he is capable of. It doesn't compare to the fourth who was able to do all of that with just one hand. So in this case it isn't that the dual core is more efficient than the single core, its that Naruto's processor was defective so he needed a dual core to do what Minato could do with a single core.


Do you guys understand what I mean or should I not even bother?

[Death BOO Z]

Everybody, please stop beating this dead horse around.

General chackra crap:
Naruto has problems with chackra. you can call it chackra control, manipulation or lack of talent. same thing. Naruto starting line with anything concerning chackra is lower than most of the other people, and he'll need more time to 'catch up' to others. however, when he does manage to 'reach' others, his abilities don't fall short than anyone else.

Rasengan:
1. Jiraya: we've never seen him use it to kill or even seriously hurt someone, so his level of skill is unknown.
2. Kakashi: said that he can't use it properly (and not only about adding lightning), and seeing as he uses the far inferior jutsu as his supermove, I'll go with saying that his rasengan is rather useless.
3. Yamato: Did we ever see him use it alone? I only remember him doing a combo with Naruto... anyways, I don't think that he can.
4. The 4th (minato?): well, he probably did use the rasengan as a killing move, and he probably could do it perfectly. still, he didn't combine his element with it, and I don't think he add some special value to it.

so I'm going with Naruto having the best rasengan around, even though he needs two clones to execute it (I suspect it's only because nobody told him to practice doing it with one hand yet, Naruto is that much of an idiot)

Naruto 3 year vacation.
I'm starting to suspect that Naruto did practically nothing, learning to control three tails couldn't have taken more than a few months, and he doesn't seem to have learned anything else (unless the very basic mid-air use of kage bunshin took him two years to learn).
no matter how you twist it around, his skill hasn't gone up so much during that time.

Rasengan crap:
We've been saying it for a few years now, but the rasengan doesn't lack destructive power. in the hands of a skilled melee fighter, it's a perfect offense, superior to chackra scapels and gentle-fist. Naruto learning to throw it is simply to slightly increase it's hit probability, but in the long run, it won't solve the problem.

[Sidnne]

6 pages of you dipshits arguing over the dumbest shit imaginable simply because none of you will stop until you convince everyone else to see things your way.

Every single post is like 5 paragraphs long and some even contain images. Do you really have nothing to do with your time? I hope you guys put the same amount of energy into your real life activities that you do into arguing about Naruto online.

[Archangel]

6 pages of you dipshits arguing over the dumbest shit imaginable simply because none of you will stop until you convince everyone else to see things your way.

Every single post is like 5 paragraphs long and some even contain images. Do you really have nothing to do with your time? I hope you guys put the same amount of energy into your real life activities that you do into arguing about Naruto online.

I'm sorry i was under the impression that this was a forum in which we were allowed to actually discuss mangas and our ideas and theories about said mangas

I guess we should just have followed Sidnne's example and just have spent our internet hours spanking the monkey

[Sidnne]

I'm sorry i was under the impression that this was a forum in which we were allowed to actually discuss mangas and our ideas and theories about said mangas

I guess we should just have followed Sidnne's example and just have spent our internet hours spanking the monkey

Hoho, Zing!