I was under the impression that he didn't really need to, but that it was quicker for him to just use kbj to do it. I think we've seen him do it a few times without clones.Originally Posted by Abdula
I was under the impression that he didn't really need to, but that it was quicker for him to just use kbj to do it. I think we've seen him do it a few times without clones.
I forgot to mention, I don't think chakra control and chakra manipulation are as distinct as you are making them out to be. I think they are very closely related even though they may not be that exact same thing but I would think the two go hand in hand, meaning you need to have great chakra control to be good at manipulation. For example Naruto is said to suck at chakra control but the rasengan is said to be the ultimate form of shape manipulation. If the two were not related then there would be no reason for Naruto to need to use shadow clones.
And I definitely think both control and manipulation are related to genjutsu. Jiraiya said that using genjutsu is definitely about chakra control but the way he explained how to get out of genjutsu, seemed like chakra manipulation to me.
Really when? The only time I remember Naruto using rasengan without clones is when he was first learning how to do it but then the technique was still said to be incomplete, the only other time was when he was fighting Sasuke and that was the Kyuubi's chakra. And why the hell would making a clone first and then using the clone to make rasengan be quicker than just making it himself. That just makes no sense.
Last edited by Abdula; Wed, 10-15-2008 at 09:52 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
If I remember correctly (and I may very well not since it has been a long time since I read/watched it) the only thing that Naruto couldn't do while he was training was keep the Rasnegan compressed on impact and the clones stop moulding the chakara as soon as it moves away from them. That means that he should be able to do it without the clones just not one handed and he has to concentrate on making it. As for why he would use a shadow clone instead of not making one I think I answered that in my last sentence, Naruto has to concentrate more on making the Rasengan when he does it on his own without the aid of a Kagebunshin, which takes his mind off the fight and leaves him open. When he uses the Kagebunshin however he can keep his eye's on his enemy and if neccesary dodge/counter any attack.
Actually, it just means that naruto sucks at yet another ability. Anyway i'm not saying they're completely unrelated, but that they are indeed 2 different things.
Actually i don't think manipulation has anything to do with it, all you have to do is disrupt the control your opponent has over your chakra by using your own. Remember the example jiraya gave naruto, he had to stop the flow of chakra on his feet and then quickly resume it at full force, that doesn't have anything to do with manipulation, just control.
As for the 1 hand rasengan, guys if he could do it with 1 hand don't you think he would have used it by now? And wouldn't that stand to fact that he would only need 1 clones to use the rasenshruiken?
@Tyreal: While you do have a point, you seem to be forgetting that the only thing the rasengan was strong enough to do when he made it himself with his two hands, was strip the bark off trees. Hence it being labeled incomplete. Look here and here. As for Naruto not needing the clones once the molding is complete, I think it was already mentioned that once the technique is created its self sustaining.
Why Naruto needs the clones is explained right here. Naruto knows exactly what he has to do he just can't do it properly because he sucks at chakra control so he needs the clones to help him. It has nothing to do with concentrating on his opponent, he releases the chakra and the clone takes care of the rotation and compression.
I already took care of explaining the need for clones to use rasengan. Anyway I think you're right. It probably is just chakra control. Manipulation is probably limited to just changing your chakra's shape or nature and everything else is control.
Last edited by Abdula; Wed, 10-15-2008 at 10:32 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Hah, that last panel looks like a reacharound.
I assume that the only reason why he was able to do it using just 1 hand while in 1-tail kyuubi mode is because he was already surrounded by chakra, which meant he could skip that step and just use chakra manipulation to spin it into the rasengan.
That's just an assumption of course, i suspect that he was only able to do it because using a shadow clone at that time would look exceptionally dumb and kishi just wanted to end that fight with a the rasengan going against the chidori.
Or maybe just because the Kyuubi's chakra is sentient thus he can already consciously control it with just his mind. Hence the arm stretching, tail whipping and all the other crazy things we've seen him do with the Kyuubi's chakra.
-Hah I spelled crazy, KrayZ. I spend way too much time on this forum.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
That could also be why. Then again doesn't it raise the question, why wasn't that rasengan red instead of blue? He was using the kyuubi's chakra wasn't he?
Uh, Naruto's rasengan was purple. Do you remember what primary colors you have to combine to get purple. Thats right, red and blue.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Re-watched the episode, you're right.
But lets back to discussing the chapter shall we?
As for the chakra demulators or whatever, aren't you guys over-thinking them a little bit? To me i'd say they're just like another ninja tool for pain or at least i hope so. If those were really the reason why pain can do all the shit he can do the rinnegan would look way less cool.
No its not the reason why he can do all the things he can do, but it would explain the link between the six bodies. Think something like what Father did in FMA.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Its got to hit something for it to explode unless naruto added a remote trigger sequence to it. Thats where the speed issue comes in.
So am I the only one who thought it was kinda cool seeing all 9 hosts in the splash image?
Ah! A ghost in drag! Aaaaaaah! xD. It was kind of cool, but most of us thought it was just too little too late.
About Naruto's lack of chakra control and the possibility of throwing a rasengan, there are only three people who can do that technique. I'm pretty sure that there are people who even with decent chakra control abilities wouldn't be able to do the rasengan, even if they had the power. It takes exceptional control abilities to pull that technique off. So Naruto not being able to do it one handed doesn't necessarily mean he sucks (i.e. average or worse) at chakra control. Also did you guys consider that not all Rasengans are created equal? The fourth's, Jiraiya's, and Naruto's are probably all different, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that Naruto's ball has the most compressed compressed chakra in it. That would make it more difficult to shape and maintain than that of the other two.
No, I also thought it was pretty cool.
Is someone paying you to ride Naruto's bandwagon? Naruto sucks at chakra control its a fact, there is no disputing that. Secondly so far a total of four people know rasengan, Naruto, Jiraiya, Minato and Kakashi. The other three can all do it with only one hand but Naruto requires three hands to do what they do with one hand, in my book that pretty much means he sucks.
Yeah I figured not all rasengans are created equal, but there is no reason to believe Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Jiraiya's since we never saw Jiraiya use it in a serious battle and we never saw Minato use it at all, and I would think his rasengan would be the strongest. It being his own technique and all and what is it they said, the strongest technique you can use is the one you create yourself. Sasuke's chidori isn't stronger than Kakashi's raikiri why would Naruto's rasengan be stronger than Minato's?
You know why they wouldn't be able to do it, because they were never taught. Anyway I don't think this statement makes any sense since Naruto himself skirted the need for good chakra control by using shadow clones.
-And what makes you think Naruto's rasengan has the most compressed chakra in it? Please tell me its not just because Naruto has alot of chakra.
Last edited by Abdula; Thu, 10-16-2008 at 10:21 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
What do you mean there's no disputing that Naruto has shitty chakra control? The post you quoted did just that. And no, I don't think Naruto's Rasengan has more compressed chakra because of the amount of chakra he has. Rather, I think it's because of the amount of chakra he can put out in burst. It's been both stated and demonstrated that this was a talent of his. And the feel of Naruto's character is that his potential for burst chakra output is more than anyone elses. The fourth might have had more, but on feel, I doubt it. Also, how do you know Sasuke's Chidori isn't stronger than Kakashi's? You're making the same assumption about Sasuke/Kakashi's chidori that I am with Naruto/Jiraiya/Minato's rasengan, without even a hint of an explanation.
What Naruto dodged by using clones to make the rasengan, is EXCEPTIONAL chakra control, not good chakra control. It seems like you're not remembering the big deal that was made about the technique's difficulty level. It takes EXCEPTIONAL power and EXCEPTIONAL control to use the Rasengan. You can't just be GOOD at those things to pull it off. So just because he couldn't do the rasengan with one hand, doesn't mean he's particularly lacking in the chakra control as compared to other ninja. This is the reason I said the second thing you quoted. So even if they were taught, if they lack exceptional control (which again, decent does not equal exceptional) or exceptional power, they can't do the rasengan, even if it was shown to them. This includes Kakashi. His rasengan is useless in battle. Lack of power.
Got dammit Barles, for the 100th time the reason why naruto is so good at those jutsus is because he has a shitload of chakra,
THIS SHIT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED BEFORE ( since you like to use caps so much...).
Don't you remember the chibi sasukes and sakuras??
I've already taken these photos from the episode i have in my pc, if that's still not enough and you want a written explanation just go watch episode 52.
I'm all for discussing theories of all kinds no matter how crazy they are but the fact is that you're wrong and it's already been proved you're wrong? Can we pls move on now?
What is it about 3 years passing by that you guys aren't getting? You do realize, that Ebisu was going to take Naruto and focus train his chakra control right? This is a TRAINABLE thing. In three years, one can improve on it and NOT suck at it. Not to mention his chakra control became a lot better during the water walking training after jiraiya removed his seal. In the three years since that episode, starting 2 episodes later, he's had plenty of opportunity to train his chakra control. I'm not talking nonsense here. Hate the character if you want. Move on from this topic if you want. None of that changes that Naruto does not necessarily suck at chakra control any longer.
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