And there's still the jutsu Naruto wants to use without anyone "seeing him" so it can only improve his chances of beating Pein. Unless it's a jutsu that's already been alluded to ie what Itachi gave him.
And there's still the jutsu Naruto wants to use without anyone "seeing him" so it can only improve his chances of beating Pein. Unless it's a jutsu that's already been alluded to ie what Itachi gave him.
Mysterious jutsu's Naruto has yet to use:
1. Itachi's Crow
2. Secret Jutsu Naruto was practising in sage mode.
3. The scroll jutsu Naruto has to unlock (the one Jiraiya gave to the frog before engaging Pein and Konan)
4. THAT jutsu (unless this happens to be the same as 2) I think was alluded to by Jiraiya somewhere in the past.
Is there anything I have missed off?
Every time i think about those 2 things i die a little inside...Originally Posted by Assertn
... no you won't. And yes he will.
I think number 3 and number 4 are the same jutsu.
I've having problems convincing myself that Naruto has surpassed both the 4th and Kakashi too. Everytime Kakashi says that, I think that he's short changed himself. Really, we need to see gradual growth and not just a huge level up in the eyes of the characters at the end of each arc.
"Our hearts are full of memories but not all of them reflect the truth. The heart isn't a recording device. Even important memories change with time. They warp or fade, leaving us with but a shadow of what we hoped to remember." 天の道を行き、全てを司る。これは僕の世界。
Now that's something I didn't consider. What if Pein beats Kakashi and makes him one of his bodies during this fight. Then later on when Naruto is finally going to go up against Pein he has to fight Kakashi?
Well huge powerups in little time aren't all that bad, look at DBZ those happened all the time and i still loved the anime. The thing is that naruto is no goku, he went through half the series not having any talent at all and now of a sudden he just surpassesthe 4th, kakashi, jiraya, etc. That shit is just ludicrous .
Difference between Goku and Naruto is that when Goku trained hard, he knew what he was doing and he would produce results e.g. during the Cell Games saga. Naruto on the other hand does some random shit for three years and has just an enhanced special move to show for this.
I still maintain that Naruto has NOT surpassed either Kakashi or Jiraiya as a ninja. No way. What Kakashi meant was that Naruto has one move that Kakashi could not do. That doesn't mean Kakashi would lose to Naruto in a fight. Secondly, Naruto has not surpassed Jiraiya, as the old frog said Naruto seemed to have the potential to surpass Jiraiya's ability to control sage mode.
I'm not understanding where you guys are getting that Naruto didn't have any talent at all for half the series. Naruto was no worse a ninja than most of his peers in the chuunin exam. He's the one who beat those three ninja that were using the clones made out of some black crap before the preliminaries. Essentially by himself, WITH that seal Orochimaru placed on him. All he had at the time was Kage Bunshins, his stamina, and his cleverness. That plan was his.
Then Jiraiya showed him how to use the demon chakra, which is something you can't blame Naruto for learning anymore than you can blame Gaara for knowing.He also taught him the frog summoning. This raised his fighting level to something above most of his peers and put him near or at the level of people like Neiji and Rock. Why do I say that? Because before he had a chance to train again, Naruto went on to earn a victory against Gaara.
It's really just two specific places that Naruto made no sense whatsoever. In the Sannin fight, where he didn't die and he should have, and in the Kimimaro fight, where it made no sense whatsoever that he was so powerless against kimimaro. Those are the biggest contributors to Naruto sucking as a character. Most of everything else that wasn't filler was fine, except maybe for entire episodes of him charging in and getting pushed back. But that's a writing fault, not a character fault.
Yeah he was no worse but he wasn't much better either. This is a shonen series, and in a shonen series you expect the main character to be far superior to everyone else, even if there is no apparent reason for his superiority. Ichigo, Gon, Goku, all good examples of this. Naruto on the other hand has every reason in the world why he should be better than every single person around him, but he isn't.
Thats my 2 cents.
Last edited by Abdula; Sun, 10-12-2008 at 01:25 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Actually, Gon is a lot like a Naruto character, done right. He wasn't better than his "peers". His attributes were.Killua could beat him for the longest, Hisoka can probably still beat him, and not to take away anything from Gon, but he really made it as far as he did in large part because of the alliances he formed. Really, the chuunin exam in Naruto was a straight, complete, and unadulterated rip off of the hunter exam in HxH. Bleach is a shit series. As bad as Naruto is, I cannot stand bleach. I stopped watching in the save Rukia arc the second he beat that eyepatch guy. THAT made no sense. Goku is the only character you mentioned that was from a good anime that met the criteria for a shounen main character you listed. And even then, the reasons were apparent. He's from an alien race of warriors.
Um, is that your comeback? Gon definitely fits the description and even if you think Bleach is shit, that doesn't exclude Ichigo from the list and good and DBZ aren't usually two things that go together in my book. Anyway I think you completely missed my point.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
I think the sannin fight was great, Naruto went up against an obviously stronger opponent, and managed to logically shonen heart his victory.
Kabuto was even in less than perfect form, so it makes good sense. it was a battle that (should've ) established naruto as a 'grown-up'. it worked quite well, when Naruto shamed Sasuke on the rooftop battle.
then they screwed it over by making Naruo lose so badly to Kimimaru, and saved by "got out of surgery, ran all the way here' Rock lee.
and then a few unimpressive parts of Naruto2 (I'm too tired to name them all, again), and we're back at stage one, where we can't believe that Naruto can't win a fight without superchackra and itachi's oral crows.
this isn't enough for him to fight payne, and not close to what he needs to fight Sasuke.
just an assumption, correct me if you think I'm wrong.. If we made two threads, of Sasuke vs Kakashi and Naruto vs Kakashi. I think that Sasuke would get 90-10 ration, and Naruto will barely get 40-60 ratio.
sig made by Itachi-y2k5, thanks, dude!
Currently Watching: probably a show directed at 9 years old girls, lets be honest.
You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
@ Abdula: Well, hopefully the post didn't come across as being agressive enough to be considered a "comeback". It's was meant as a rebuttal, a response. But if it can't be considered that, then yeah, maybe I missed your point. Even so, when it comes to Gon, he's essentially no different than Naruto in design. That's one thing I cannot concede to the opposite.
@DBZ. I think you're right about the proportions you mentioned, but I think that's only because people are going to judge as a matter of impression instead of taking inventory of the skills and abilities that the two characters have displayed. Furthermore, even if they do, they often downplay some of those things in Naruto's inventory, also as a matter of impression. To be fair, impression is important, but I don't have this same impression that most other people seem to have of Naruto. After choosing to forget both the Kimimaro fight, and the fact that he should've died at Kabuto's hands. Oh, and I have to disagree that that fight should've established Naruto as a grown up. When you realize just how outclassed you are by the opponents in a fight, the "grown up" thing to do is to watch and learn. And MAYBE, seek an opportunity to throw yourself in there, if a VERY obvious opportunity shows up. If you choose to just go in there, then you should be able to accept death as the result.
You mentioned that a lot of Naruto's showings in the "Naruto 2" were unimpressive. I'm thinking you're referring to his participation in the fights against Deidara, then Orochimaru, then Kakuzu. I was rather impressed actually at Kishimoto for those fights against Deidara and Kakuzu.
Against Deidara, he didn't try to have Naruto do more than he could. And that was NOTHING while Deidara was flying around. He didn't pull anything out of his ass to try and make Naruto shine. When Deidara finally landed though, Naruto was sneaky enough to have Deidara focus on his crying clone and his angry clone, while his "business" clone found him and blasted him in the mouth. More could've been done I suppose, but Deidara's no whimp.
Against Kakuzu, I was impressed because this was one of those moments where Naruto did things exactly along the lines of his development. He used his kagebunshins to determine how many it would take to get past Kakuzu's defenses. That's a line of strategic thinking he probably learned during Jiraiya's training for the 2.5 years. He certainly didn't think that way before the training, and he had no opportunity to learn it after the training. He used his wind rasengan to kill Kakuzu, which is a power up he learned post time skip. He also used henge to mask 2 of his clones and add a measure of deception to the second charge. Kakuzu having no eye techniques couldn't have easily seen through this. This is a level of cleverness that Naruto's always displayed since the Zabuza fight, and most fights after that.
The Orochimaru fight impressed me solely because well animated 9 tails shenanigans are always entertaining to me.
Last edited by Uchiha Barles; Sun, 10-12-2008 at 03:22 PM.
heck, we had an HxH thing going on? I'm in.
Gon was weaker than Killua, yes. but killua was the 4th strongest guy in the exam (hisoka, Kuromi, Hanzou). and still Gon, was around Kuripaca's level, and even without the bail out of the final exam, he'd probably still get hunter qualified.
the difference between him and naruto is that when gon gets a level-up, it's explained, it has in-story reason, other than "he can surpass the previous guy", we actually get to see him training from the core of his new found strength. basic nen, advanced nen, super nen. it's believable.
not to mention that when he fights, he usually wins because of brains, not because of power.
Gon, in most aspects, is comparable to yusuke (YYH), they both are naive and run by emotion, but with brain power to support it, and not one bit innocent or surprised.
the problem is that Naruto never shows his strength, he mostly gets the part of the weakling that's beaten to show how strong the enemy is.
more crap:
I don't see any problem with the Kabuto fight, Naruto went in, did his thing, took a stab at his hand, followed his ninja way, and managed a double k.o (yes, he would have died if not for tsunade, but I can't see any rookie doing more damage to Kabuto at that state of time). by established as a grown up, I mean that he's out of the children league, he belongs to the real world fights. he may not be the strongest one, but he doesn't need someone to constantly watch over him. even orochimaru said that Naruto was no longer an 'interesting kid' and viewed him as something with real abilities.
Naruto2:
Deidara: sure, Naruto ravaged him, but it was after Deidara had his freakin' arm blasted into the future (or the past, or something), he was kyuubi fueled (two tails, I think?) and displayed nothing new. Naruto didn't even cause real damage (Kakashi took an arm, Sasuke killed him, Naruto? zist).
Orochimaru: no complaints here, best fight in naruto2. but it wasn't naruto, it was the demon mode. not to mention he got completely owned (is there a stronger description? I need something stronger) by sasuke minutes after-wards.
Kazuko: Naruto took out two hearts, the same number as kakashi. during that time, Naruto managed to make a complete fool out of himself. and in the end, that's what matters.
more honorable mention of naruto sucking: Naruto taking an oral cock from Itachi clone.
a few chapters later we see Sasuke taking Itachi toe-to-toe. that's like a river of difference.
more of the same: Sasuke has his own team now, his own damn goal, and has made himself a decision or two. Naruto is still chapparoned and guided hand by hand by the
same idiots from 400 chapters ago.
last, but not least: Naruto has the most experience in the village with shadow clones, he has made thousends of them, why couldn't he have figured the training trick on his own?
the lasting impression is the only thing that matters. if the author wants us to believe something in the story, he has to make it believable, not just write whatever he wants, and then say that something is something because he said so.
sig made by Itachi-y2k5, thanks, dude!
Currently Watching: probably a show directed at 9 years old girls, lets be honest.
You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
Lol you're talking about the anti-kishi who lives in a parallel universe right?
nope, I'm talking about the fictional characterization of Kishimonto. a being that exists only at our minds.
he's magical, and his writing is magical as well. and he isn't set off track by real-life events and ideas that come across the real kishimonto mind.
you won't understand, but he's magical, and you have to believe he exists, otherwise another sasuke chapter is published.
we have completely gone off-topic, and each post is getting stupider than the previous one, lets move to the subject of Payne's bodies, does anyone have an idea? I'm still shitting bricks from people saying Kazuko was the christian prophet gospel, or something.
sig made by Itachi-y2k5, thanks, dude!
Currently Watching: probably a show directed at 9 years old girls, lets be honest.
You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
It is all Kishi's fault for making Naruto so weak to begin with; the same way he made Itachi so godlike only to be beaten by his emo brother without ever showing his real power (yes we seen glimpses of it but by the time he was ready to go all out he was almost blind, had some sickness, and was hoping for his brother to kill him).
Naruto should have never been as weak as he was just for the the fact that his father was the -the- 4th Hokage (hell even the little bit we've learned about his mom makes it seem like she was even fairly skilled), and that he had the demon fox inside him.
The problem here is Kishi's giant hard on for the Sharingan. Sasuke has a sharingan and this is basically why he's as strong as he is. Naruto has a father who was (I think) the youngest and strongest Hokage, was trained by two legends; Kakashi and Jiraiya, and has the strongest Bijuu inside him. He matches Sasuke in every way (strong father/trained by Kakashi/Sannin, some sort of special power), and Kishi meant for this, except without any real explanation Sasuke is always more skilled, and not by a little but by leaps and bounds. Naruto should be at his current power level but it should have happened gradually since (and during) the time skip.
[21:48] * DO furiously masturbates to #gotwoot
____________________________________________
@DeathBoo
I had a huge response (which seems to be the norm as of late) but then I accidentally pressed the backspace button while the cursor wasn't active, and lost message...pissed me off. But I'm back, hopefully with a streamlined version.
Killua arguably may have been the fourth strongest, but I'm pretty sure that there were people there that were both stronger than Gon yet weaker than Killua. For one, that nen user that used the four knives to fight against Hisoka, and died shortly thereafter. Then there were the martial artist brothers, one of which Killua took out. I'm pretty sure Kurapica was stronger than Gon, specially considering that his fighting ability was no less than Gon's when he wasn't pissed off, vastly superior when he was, and that he had all that random knowledge (If we're talking pure fighting ability, there are likely others who didn't make it to the finals that were also stronger than Gon). So this places Gon at around the same relative level that Naruto was at in the Chuunin exams.
Now, Gon is a naturally clever character, with high levels of endurance, and is a reinforcement nen user. Naruto is a naturally clever character, with high levels of endurance, high chakra capacity with high burst chakra output capacity...if you get my meaning. These are their "talents" so to speak. Much of what they can do are direct consequences of these things. I'll give you that HxH explains things much better, and is plain better in every aspect, but that doesn't change the parallel between the characters.
Now, I'll give you that the Itachi shadow cock (lol!) and much of the other things you mentioned did make Naruto look like an idiot, but for the most part, they had nothing to do with his combat ability. There's one thing you mentioned that did though. Naruto screwing up in the Kakuzu fight. That fizzing of his rasengan is reminiscent of his failure to summon Gamabunta the first time he tried in the Gaara fight. This may be Kishi's way of telling us that Naruto's the kind of character that bring's to combat a jutsu that's still in the beta stages of development, and that things could very well go wrong for him when he does. Everything else though, just doesn't matter as far as how he'll perform in a fight. That's how I get my impression of characters strengths. Also, yeah, Naruto only took out two hearts, but he did it in one blow, and that blow could've very well taken out all five hearts, based on its apparent destructive power.
My problem with the Sannin fight, is that I don't really believe Tsunade should've been able to save him. I mean, even the demon fox couldn't do anything. That part just reeks of bs. Naruto realized he was just plain outclassed, by several levels. The "grown up" thing to do at that point would've been to watch and learn. And MAYBE, if an obvious opportunity presented itself to do something, THEN make a move. You don't just pick up your gloves, take two lessons of boxing, and then talk shit to mike tyson before lunging at him. You wait till his back is turned, and you crack him over the skull with a lead pipe. Same situation with Naruto and Kabuto. The fight where he showed maturity to me, was the Gaara fight. He fought someone who seemingly outclassed him, even in his own eyes, used everything he had, discovered he could fight on even ground with the opponent, and then won. Him getting the rasengan on Kabuto was nice, but as far as I'm concerned, he died afterwards, and I have to forget that every time I try to watch an episode of the series. On those times I fail at that, I can't keep watching, I have to try again later.
...this post is actually worst than the first one, and somehow just as long...:-(
Last edited by Uchiha Barles; Mon, 10-13-2008 at 08:00 AM.
Naruto vs. Kabuto:
Naruto joined the fight (after mindlessly charging at Kabuto once) to save Tsunade from death, which is the smart thing to do (to stop it from becoming sick Orochimaru vs poisoned Jiraya), he took a punch straight to the head, and stood ground.
which pretty much implies to naruto that his enemy doesn't have much power, and can't over-taijutsu him. that's pretty good odds for naruto, really.
after that, he is saved by combined effort of Tsunade's super healing, and Kyuubi recovery (or, as later speculations might indicate, by the magical necklese of the 1st hokage), I really think that it's enough to cure him.
as for naruto sucking in the fight against Itachi and taking his giant oral shadow cock, the problem is less that he lost to Itachi, it was more the overwhelming magnitude of how incompetent he is against someone who has the slightest non-melee combat abilities. I'm not expecting him to win against Itachi, but god, show us something. Tactic thinking, dodging skills, something redeeming, don't stand around and take his sexual abuse, god dammit!
I'm not so problemmed with naruto using half baked jutsu in the middle of battle, I'm more concerned that he doesn't use any jutsu that he actually knows before going into shonen heart mode.
We haven't seen hims summoning a toad since forever (can he summon normal battle toads? or is he still stuck between super toad and kid toad?), he hardly combines henge and Kage bunshin (oh, right, his and Sai's spar against Yamato, wow), not to talk about normal bunshin combined with shadow ones, or any jutsu that isn't of epic levels (heck, he can throw a rasenshuriken around, but can't use 'razor leaf' like balbasaur?).
Naruto never won a fight without shonen hearting it (well, at least since fighting Kiba), even Ichigo has better track record than that.
Gon can actually see beyond the hole in the bucket, Naruto keeps screaming about that hole. So when Naruto is mindlessly following Jiraya around and sprouting embarrassing dialog, Gon can actually say something that has meaning.
but that's just hitting more on the Kishi-Pinyata, so we should stop.
does anyone have something to say about Payne's six pack?
sig made by Itachi-y2k5, thanks, dude!
Currently Watching: probably a show directed at 9 years old girls, lets be honest.
You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
Well now that Shizune has figured that the black rods are chakra demodulators, you can bet your ass on it that they are going to bust out with some sort of chakra 'scrambler' and block the chakra waves from travelling in the air.
I think the people best suited to fight with the 6 pack of Pein will be the Hyuuga, as a lot seems to revolve around the fact they are interlinked and sharing chakra with each other. The Hyuuga should be able to see this chakra activity and block it off.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
