Toaru Majutsu no Index

[shinta|hikari]

Intelligence is not what you know, but how you use it.

Well, unless his brain damage caused his IQ to drop significantly.

[Nadouku]

I'm guessing it was because Touma was in a rush to change Mikoto's mind that he forgot to calculate a plan with information on Accelerator. Can't blame that guy though, he's always rushing into danger and doesn't even realize what to do when arriving.

[RyougaZell]

Intelligence is not what you know, but how you use it.

Well, unless his brain damage caused his IQ to drop significantly.

Well... Im assuming he forgot all about magic and espers... so he has had a few days to remember this.

Or as Nadouku said... he has Mikoto on his mind and its a bit distracted to think straight.

[shinta|hikari]

@RZ - He only forgot up until the Index seal incident. He remembers the Alchemist event where he performed well by figuring out the true identity of the enemy's power. You can't just say that he is confused because the enemy is using "powers" or "magic".

Unlike the previous cases where he had to get beaten up first (and get information) before eventually defeating the enemy, full information regarding Accelerator's powers were given to him this time. This includes his own powers. Add to this a relatively long period of time between learning this information and the actual battle.

Then he forgot to calculate a plan..?

And you don't call that stupid?

[Nadouku]

Well, lets just say that Touma is forgetting an important aspect before entering a fight. Desperately, he's trying to save someone without thinking clearly. Yea, that's stupid, trying to be a hero and all with that damaged body of his. And you wonder why most of the girls has the hots for him.

[David75]

Well, I guess that beating him too quickly with what could be considered luck isn't in Touma's plan.
He wants to show the ones behind the experiment that the Accelerator really is weak, so Touma wants to show that he, a level 0, can beat the accelerator fair and square.

Well, I guess that beating him too quickly with what could be considered luck isn't in Touma's plan.
He wants to show the ones behind the experiment that the Accelerator really is weak, so Touma wants to show that he, a level 0, can beat the accelerator head on

[Kraco]

If I try to remember his previous fights, I don't think he has ever planned anything, just reacted when things started to happen, and, fortunately for him, at that point he has had pretty quick wits. Who knows why he never plans anything beforehand, even in extremely simple situations like this when he already realised he must do something.

His power is strange, thinking about it based on this episode and the loli teacher's explanation. ESP is altering reality, so what exactly is Touma doing? Removing ESP alterations? What does that exactly mean? It means Touma has the exact same power as any esper or magician he meets, only he can't control it and it always just reverses what was done - unless that would be inconvenient for the script writer in which case his power does nothing. It's kind of boring, really. I hope they will spend time to probe it sufficiently.

[Xelbair]

Theoretically Accelerator by one mistake could destroy earth.
I think that touma won't finish him off, someone other will - some magican or something. Well he just wasted his best chance to win, and enemy knows 'bout his power. without outside help he is as good as dead.

[shinta|hikari]

Touma never planned anything because he didn't have the information to plan anything. It was either an unexpected fight, or an unknown situation.

He is supposed to be quick-witted, being able to come up with a plan the moment he realizes something. This has been shown in all of his other fights.

This time, he completely wastes a good opportunity. Making the opponent underestimate you is part of strategy, not luck. If he managed to beat the shit out of Accelerator when he slapped the hand away, the experiments should cease.

I know I am being picky, but it could have been done much, much better so easily that I am irritated why they had to present it in such a manner.

@Xelbair - That's true. If accelerator steps on the ground and changes the speed enough that it can destroy the earth, and adjust the recoil to his body towards the ground as well, the planet would be destroyed twice over.

[Buffalobiian]

@Xelbair - That's true. If accelerator steps on the ground and changes the speed enough that it can destroy the earth, and adjust the recoil to his body towards the ground as well, the planet would be destroyed twice over.

There may be a limit to how he can change vectors. Perhaps his total energy manipulation can only be equal to a certain constant times his own body mass (ie, k x mc^2 where m=his body mass) or something. Otherwise, it's just infinite power. It's like Mikoto can save the planet by providing the entire world with "clean energy".

I just don't think it'll work that way, that's all.

[shinta|hikari]

I hope so. Maybe Touma will figure out a loophole in the guy's powers.

[RyougaZell]

Is he acting rashly? Yes
Is he acting stupid? Yes

Does he have the time to plan? No

If he takes time to plan MISAKA 10032 would be dead by now... and maybe even Mikoto would have gone to fight.

Setting aside the Index incident... he was indeed thrown directly towards Lezzard... but Styl did give him information on him. He didn't plan though because he isn't a freaking genius.

And anyway... you were ranting about he forgetting what he did against Styl and Kaori... whereas the current Touma only has known Styl as a semi-ally.

[shinta|hikari]

You know, I came up with a plan to defeat Accelerator with the information given in less than 10 seconds. Anyone could, actually. It is not foolproof, nor is it complete to the details, but it sure beats slapping away the chance handed to you.

Touma had minutes to do it when he was running to the scene.

I can't believe you still think I am referring to knowledge about magic and powers when I talk about the incidents from before. I am referring to his ability to use the information, which should remain despite memory loss.

What exactly is your definition of a plan? It doesn't have to be Light or Lelouch level in complexity. It can be as simple as waiting for a chance to grab the enemy and beat him silly. When Touma approached the alchemist, he had a plan, which he formed in less than a minute when he realized the true nature of the enemy's power. It is this lack of consistency that irks me.

[Xelbair]

I would love to see fight Accelerator vs mage. I'm interested in his power to reflect - meybe magic follow other rules than normal physics and fight would not be like "I'm sooo imba and i'm gonna kill you after having fun with beating you up"...

[fireheart]

I don't know about the whole plan thing, like others said it'd probably be kinda boring if he just went in there with any kind of weapon and swung it towards the back of his head as in a surprise attack also there's no point in fighting him unless they actually fight head on. Besides he's using a lot of range attacks including those that surrounds him which making it harder for him to approach him. Also seeing as he's throwing physical stuff at him his Imagine breaker is pretty useless. Right now he pretty much just needs to get close and throw a couple of punches at him.

[Munsu]

Need input from you guys since I'm considering moving this series to the "En Fuego" section for the last 9 episodes. Please discuss here:
http://forums.gotwoot.com/showthread.php?t=15913

[Ryllharu]

His power is strange, thinking about it based on this episode and the loli teacher's explanation. ESP is altering reality, so what exactly is Touma doing? Removing ESP alterations? What does that exactly mean? It means Touma has the exact same power as any esper or magician he meets, only he can't control it and it always just reverses what was done - unless that would be inconvenient for the script writer in which case his power does nothing. It's kind of boring, really. I hope they will spend time to probe it sufficiently.

According to the Alcoholic Chain-Smoking Loli's explanation, normal Espers are able to choose what type of candy comes out of the box (or whether the cat is dead or not). Instead of the result being an unknown until the box opens, Espers guarantee the outcome. Affecting enough of those minute changes lets them shift reality enough that they create a power.

Mikoto presumably distorts the precise location of an electron, and another and another. The electrons rub together and align until she generates sufficient electromagnetic engeries. Similarlly, Accelerator distorts something as minute as the spin direction the subatomic particles (basis for Schrödinger's Principle). Stacked together, he controls where and how fast they are collectively going. Someone like Kuroko (played by the lovely Satomi Arai, Sayoko in CG) with teleportation probably shifts the judgment on the precise location of her composite particles and associated ones around her until, *Poof* she's somewhere else.

Magic does this all by violating physics just the same, only using the divine to do the dirty work that Espers do subconsciously. Magic seems more like a conscious will driving the same guarantees that Espers accomplish unconsciously. Magicians always beseech intervention to their benefit (or their opponent's misfortune). Index's Walking Church supposedly used to accomplish the same thing as Touma's ability, but in addition consciously didn't allow shifts that would harm the wearer, explaining why physical attacks like Kaori's also should have failed.

Touma on the other hand forces the choice back into the box. He recreates that uncertainty, rendering both magic and ESP abilities useless. That's why he doesn't have any power without something being used against him. That same uncertainty always exists outside the influence of an Esper, so he normally doesn't affect anything. But when Mikoto blasts him with a lighting bolt of modified electron locations, he just ensures that their locations are again unknown, and the effect is dispelled. Perhaps his bad luck is, like Index claimed, just a side affect of him cancelling out the standard level of benevolence the divine imparts on all human beings. When all is uncertain, things just happen as they will (for comedic effect).

[Kraco]

Something about that bothers me, which is why I wrote what I did. It's probably the weak link (in your theory) between these ESP powers and the reality. Moreover, you can't return the uncertainty once the power has been used already because that has become the real reality already at that point. It would make sense he could render someone unable to use the power when touched, but it doesn't make sense an already altered reality could be returned to the "normal" state. Well, that seems to be the case with Accelerator and the shit flying around, but Mikoto's case still fights againt this in my opinion. Also the fire used by Stiyl, The Fire Mage.

There seems to exist a discrepancy between how matter and energy are treated in this series.

[Ryllharu]

I have to disagree, mostly because everyone is so shocked that his power works that way. It absolutely makes no sense that Touma reinserts the uncertainty of the world, but that is why I strangely find it to be the most plausible explanation given Lolita-sensei's explanation behind the science. That's why Espers are so confused by the effect, because most of them probably know the science too.

I don't think it actually is returning to a "normal" state. Just a different uncertain state. That appears "normal" enough to the observer, hence the cancellation of the altered reality. Nothing is reversed, just, "returned to the inside of the box."

With Mikoto, Touma's ability just makes a jumble of everything again. Lighting (one of her abilities) is created when all the charges in the air align to make a column. The negative charge in the clouds then shoots down this column to the positively charged object (in this case, Touma). Touma jumbles the alignment of column right at the level of his right arm (since he can only affect it locally), so the effect is only cancelled in his immediate vicinity, and disperses around him as electricity might normally. He replaced that uncertainty about the alignment of the charged particles right near him, shooting the electric discharge off in all directions through a disorganized field. Her normal blasts work the same way, so they are cancelled the same way. However, her railgun is different, and she intentionally missed him, and is why he avoids Accelerator's projectiles. Can't stop what is already been done, as we saw when Touma's arm was sliced off.

I agree with you on the fire for the most part, but fire is just plasma in fluid form, and can be affected by the same particle phyiscs. So Touma could theoretically cancel the fire itself. As for the heat which would already have been created...Touma would be incinerated either way, I agree there. But that is one of the abilities of a magic user, we aren't supposed to understand the science behind that.

EDIT:

Okay, I've worked out a plausible explanation for the heat too. If magic is just divine intervention on the same level of an Esper, then Stiyl's (or any other Esper's abilities) come from reversing the laws of thermodynamics among others. They are [B]reducing[B] entropy (simply described as the disorder/randomness of a system, which always increases). Touma is just replacing that entropy taken out. This would reduce the heat created by the flames as well by reversing the system Stiyl's magic creates.

[fireheart]

To lazy to check if it's already been mentioned but where you guys aware that Stiyl was only 14 years old?

Ryll: Don't quite think that works with the heat since the heat surrounds him more than just one way, which means his hand shouldn't be able to cancel out all the hot air. The same should go for all the lightning bolts as well if he only cancels out what he's touching unless it's got some kind of range and cancels the whole distorted reality that he touches. Besides they haven't properly explained his imagine breaker anyway so they'll probably do it at some point.