I was getting tired of all the drama. If she really is dead... that is just too much,,
I was getting tired of all the drama. If she really is dead... that is just too much,,
Thanks shinta|hikari for the sig.
In the preview, next ep is named final episode.
So I guess there'll be 2 DVD specials/OAV?
In the end, I hope they won't play us in telling that this was a dream Tomoya had and he now can change his future to prevent hose hardships from happening.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
I think the obvious ending would be something similar to what happened to Nagisa. Ushio revives due to some mysterious power, but this time, the results are more permanent. Then there will be a time skip, a relatively short one, showing Tomoya and Ushio, and hopefully Kyou, living happily together.
Peace.
If she does indeed die (she probably won't), Yuki's gonna need many buckets.
I'm kinda surprised I was the only one who teared up. As I was watching that scene I felt crushed.
I've been tearing up since Nagisa died. I just didn't think it needed to be said anymore.
Peace.
Awsome episode. Though i dont think she´s already gone, they certainly toy around with Tomoya.
But it cant happen.
If Ushio died, there are 2 options: Tomoya locking away himself in a dark room, or running Amok in his city. And neither would be happy endings. (Though, Tomoya starting a massacre would certainly make this show memorable).
Wow life really likes to kick Tomoya in the teeth.
"Be sure to take this piece of $#!t(meant sheet)" - My dynamics professor(heavy japanese accent)
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Current Games: League of Legends(Fuck, its got me hooked again -_-)
Damn, what a show. Tomoya took so heavily Nagisa's death but somehow managed to revive with Ushio's help. Should Ushio die now, there won't be anything left anymore to save him, nor do I think he would even like to be saved, having already a tendency to blame himself for things that clearly aren't anybody's fault. Nearing the end his looks were already eerily reminding of his dad's ghastly looks and how he himself looked after Nagisa's demise. He's certainly going down the same path.
After all we have seen, I'm not unwary enough to make predictions of how this all is going to end. The only thing I dare to expect is a good end, no matter if it's sad or happy. These past eps having been so powerful I doubt they could screw it all up.
So emotional... it was already painful for me to watch Ushio barely walk with Tomoya. I would have just carried her despite her pleas to walk on her own... and Tomoya was already looking miserable when he quit his job to stay around Ushio, but now, he's lost everything. Yukimura's gonna need about ten buckets.
I am training in the shadows.
Currently playing: All of your games, probably.
weird usually someone would have posted this up already
[SS-Eclipse] Clannad After Story - 21 (h264) [16297C7C].mkv
You are here alone again
In your sweet insanity
All too calm, you hide yourself from reality
Do you call it solitude? Do you call it liberty?
When all the world turns away to leave you lonely
It was sad, but at the same time, I can't stop thinking how Tomoya made the wrong decision this time taking Ushio out on a trip. As a father, it's up to him to think about what wish he should or shouldn't grant Ushio, however painful it is to watch her desiring but not getting. While Ushio might have ended up in the same way at home, exerting herself like that wouldn't have helped her get better.
I'm hoping she doesn't die. If anything, I'll be expecting a rehash of how Akio carried Nagisa to someplace - possibly the hill that's being dug up for a shopping mall, and Ushio regains consciousness there, making a connection with that place.
Initially, I was thinking he'd take on a more active role in the city after that, preventing change of certain spots that are important to people. That sort of contradicts to what the preview shows though, where we have a freeze in time while Tomoya decides whether to answer Nagisa's call - since by doing so:
1) He'll accept that dating Nagisa was the correct decision
2) He'll be acknowledging her comment that change is unavoidable.
Maybe a mixture of both, resulting in Tomoya taking a role in protecting the hill (while Akio let it change), speaking out on what he thinks 'good changes" are. It sounds a bit dodgy here, but that's what's going through my head right now anyway.
As for episode counts, After Story is 22 eps long, making the next episode the final one, but he get a "special episode" after that. I haven't heard news of a DVD special yet, but it doe sound like they're doing things the same way as last time, so I'll be looking out for that.
Last edited by Buffalobiian; Sat, 03-07-2009 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Sense making
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Ushio better live, because otherwise that's just ridiculously depressing. It certainly wasn't the best idea for Tomoya to take her outside, but I have a feeling that she might have been in that situation even if she stayed.
I got the impression Ushio felt she was dying and wanted absolutely not to die trapped in her bed but instead out there, while doing something worthwhile. I wouldn't blame Tomoya for it. He watched her slowly wither away for weeks, not able to do anything but lie still. Now she was at least able to meet her end with her boots on, which is indefinitely better than dying in bed even if the end came a few days earlier. If nothing can be done, it should be at least considered what can make the dying person happier during their last moments.
This would have been the better choice if they know for sure that Ushio was going to die (assuming she is dead for now). But it's the fact that it mightn't have been the case that Tomoya should have avoided any risks that could snuff out whatever life was left in Ushio.
It's like if Nagisa had to die during labour, then it makes sense for her to do it at home, since it's what she wishes for. However, because they're not 100% certain that she'll die during childbirth that a hospital setting was preferred, since it provides a higher chance of survival.
In the end, Nagisa was forced to have Ushio at home because she couldn't get to the hospital. Likewise, medical help couldn't reach her, but neither of that was anybody's fault.
On the other hand, disregarding whether Ushio "knew she was going to die", ( we can't really test this speculation anyhow), it was Tomoya who gave into her desire to go for a trip. It's not like Tomoya had "I'll make her lasting days happer" on his mind when he did that neither, since that would mean he already believes Ushio is done for.
In the end, Tomoya ended up with "Stuff it, if Ushio wants to go on a trip that badly, let's go."
I can sympathise with Tomoya, but at the same time see his decision to take Ushio out as a bad one, for her health's sake.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
That's really no different from my speculation that Ushio knew she was dying and didn't want to die trapped in her bed. We don't know what Tomoya was thinking. He had already experienced Nagisa dying, no matter what was done (or actually nothing could be done by the doctors), so he probably knew there was no hope left for Ushio either, short of a miracle, and miracles come more often to those who seek them, not those who lie at home hoping for them. Perhaps he thought that granting Ushio's one last wish would also somehow save her.Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
The difference between our scenarios is that in yours, Tomoya believes that it's better for Ushio to get out for one last walk before she dies, than to stay cooped up in the house. That's also the part I'm not convinced about, that it's hopeless, and it's better she goes on a trip one last time, even if it costs her life.
He's seen asking multiple times "Tell me if you don't feel good, alright." If it was the other case, he'd be more "Let's see how far we can get before our time runs out" or similar.
Clearly, it's not his intention nor his anticipated result that Ushio dies. He's going on a trip because Ushio wants to, but not at the expense of her life.
This is further supported later where he hesitates whether to talk to Nagisa at the hill. His thought's the same as back then. If we never met, then perhaps Nagisa would have never dated me, and lived a long, happy life with her parents instead. - this time, it's further extrapolated to -and perhaps we'd never have had Ushio (and have her die).
His thoughts are that he'd rather sacrifice happiness (Tomoya and Nagisa's time together) for longevity (Nagisa having a longer life).
My point here is that he's made an choice here to grant Ushio her wish without wanting to compromise her health. But the reality is that you can't have both. As the parent, he's got to make a choice, and IMO he made the wrong one.
-----------------------------
As you said,
, and the "let Ushio have her happiness at the expense of her life" thought-pattern I have used above when talking about your scenario may well not be how Tomoya thought.
But regardless of that, he let Ushio outside. And then he failed to stop Ushio when she was obviously overexerting herself. Ushio may well have seen her end come and wanted to die outside, but from what I see as Tomoya's desire to let Ushio live as long as possible - a normal parent's thinking - he's made the wrong choices.
------------------------------------------
Edit: I also wanted to highlight the conditions surrounding Nagisa's death compared to Ushio's.
Nagisa's death:
-weak body: That's something she's born with, as we've seen she's always sick in the winter months.
-Lack of immediate medical help: The house was locked out with snow and/or traffic.
- Overexertion/physical activity: bolded for emphasis. Giving birth to Ushio was the only option for the couple - abortion being out of the question.
As we've seen, Nagisa gets sick often. Even back then, she'd be bedridden for weeks on end. Medical attention obviously didn't get rid of it, but she seems to recover year after year. It's the combination of the three above that caused her to die in the end. None of them was due to anyone's fault, discounting Tomoya getting her pregnant.
However with Ushio's case:
-Physical weakness: Something she's born with, we'll assume. Again, no one's fault.
-Lack of medical attention: This one's a bit iffy. The doctor said "It's the same as Nagisa's condition". They don't know the cause, and can't get rid of it for her. Whether or not Ushio would have been saved if a doctor was right there is questionable. Would immediate first aid have stabalised her condition, but leave the fever as it was? I don't know. For argument's sake, let's say NO. Lack of medical condition does NOT contribute to Ushio's death. Tomoya is not at fault here for dragging her out.
-Overexertion/physical activity: Here, we see Ushio struggling to make the trip. Whether or not this would have made a difference to the outcome, we'll never know. Ushio may have been bedridden for a few more days before getting better (just like a normal yearly "Nagisa" condition), or she may not have. But one thing I do know is that this sure wouldn't help, and if anything, only brings about a worse consequence for her health. This was something Tomoya could have prevented, but he chose not to. That's why it was a bad decision.
Last edited by Buffalobiian; Sun, 03-08-2009 at 07:28 AM.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
I'm not going to argue the point of Tomoya letting Ushio overexert herself. That's pretty much given, no matter whether you believe letting her out was a disastrous decision or not (meaning whether it's really what killed her). It's not like going to a trip equals to walking all the way there by your own strength if you are sick. Even though I thought it was good to let her breath some fresh air, letting her walk until she dropped dead was highly dubious. He could have let her walk for a bit and then carried her, even if she didn't want to be carried.
Even though I said Tomoya might have realised the end is near, I'm not saying he didn't want to have Ushio keep living. But humans aren't such simple creatures. You sometimes try to do some project till the very bitter end even though you know you won't make it in time. Or you might just drop it entirely right away knowing you won't ever make it. Or you might do something the more inefficient way just for whatever vague reason.
Obviously Tomoya didn't want to shorten Ushio's life, but after watching her slowly wither for weeks, he was probably at his wit's absolute end and couldn't anymore deny her last little wish, like he said himself. And I claim at that moment he knew it would make little difference in the long run. Likewise a dude like he will still blame himself afterwards for what he did, though he did it willingly. He just carries a huge burden of regrets by nature.
I think my soul has been crying for days, crying so hard my mind 'rejected' the episode and Clannad After Story in general from my memory to protect me since I literally forgot about the show for 2 days after watching the latest ep but kept randomly thinking of high times during season 1. Now that I'm thinking about episode 21 I want to go cry more.
As sad as it is my take on it was that Tomoya taking the girl out for the trip was alright. He's her father and he knew well enough that she probably wouldn't survive, so he made a decision. If she had the same condition as Nagisa then she could either grow up living in a cage tasting life but having little to no guarantee she would get to live it to the fullest or she could die in her fathers arms on a trip content in that. Some people would say life is always better than death regardless of circumstances while others might say a few perfect moments are worth giving up a life of pain or under-fulfillment, it's a matter of personal opinion in my book.
Nagisa seemed to make due in her under-fulfilling life, but it obviously caused her pain having to miss out on half of every school year and lose many of the connections she would make with people because of it. I can understand the argument that Tomoya should have ignored Ushio's wishes and let her rot in bed until she potentially got better and then lived her probable half life. But I can also understand and respect his decision to say screw you to fate and try to bring her happiness despite her condition. I see it as offering her 'full life' at the price of having it burn up much faster than if she spent it over the course of a longer period of time in a half-living state. I hope by some miracle she can be saved but if that's not going to be the case then I don't know if I could stand knowing Tomoya would have to live on in that shitty shitty shitty state of being. If ever there was a case for suicide I think having your wife die in your arms due to something you can correlate to your decisions (regardless of your intentions) and then your daughter repeat the ordeal almost right after you'd started to get over your wife would qualify as a decent argument.
The parent-child relationship is an interesting one in that typical people are socially recognized as being unqualified to do many of the things that children need however they are afforded the 'right' to make decisions for them with no preconditions or assessments of capability. The message that this policy sends to me is that merely by having children society deems people qualified to be parents. In this light I see Tomoya's decision as something akin to a parent choosing to stop treatment for an ailment that has no foreseeable cure but can be 'managed' for a time with side effects that affect the quality of life of the child. As Ushio's parent he is afforded the right to choose her path, whatever treatment option he wants to go with is what's 'right' for Ushio. The alternative would be society communally raising everyone's children by a single universal standard, which I personally don't think is such a bad idea of you want every child to be treated by the same value system.
Last edited by Yukimura; Tue, 03-10-2009 at 01:16 AM.
CLANNAD AFTER STORY 22 PAS [AQS][Sprocket][TWH][118037FB] avi 166.73Mb @ mininova
Their sub is always sufficient, so I posted them. Couldn't wait for Eclipse.
I'll probably archive that show when widescreen subs are available.
So they took the "easy" route, the dream one... eventhough they tried to cover up for it.
Some Fuu-ness too.
Well, I don't really know what to think about the after story, I think I'll marathon it before the archiving I mentionned, in order to get more out of it. To me, it really lacks at least one full ep of the three as a familly.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
What a shitty final episode.
And i dont even see, where they took "the dream route". It was just a mess. It wasnt clear if its a dream, or what else. Just confusion.
Seriously, i really liked this show, but thats as shitty as an ending can be.
btw. Nagis is drawn so much hotter since she´s a "mum". lol
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