Wait, what? This episode didn't indicate anything like that. And he didn't choose her because she was gonna die on him... Unless you mean somehow he wanted his situation to be exactly like his father's, which would just be far-fetched.Originally Posted by David75
Think about it:
I'm not saying he did it on purpose, just that something inside him had him towards Nagisa. You know the "like father, like son" idea. Unconciously by chosing Nagisa, the outcome could be that she eventually dies.
And then, they even go as far as having a child together.
That's also the truth behind his lamentations on Nagisa's death bed, just he doesn't know some force in him pushed him that way.
For a reason, lots of things in that ep rubbed me the wrong way.
And the "Cry in the toilets" thing was a climax to me, because it's some kind of psycological torture, again to me. I know the stereotypical japanese should'nt show much emotions, but that's going a little far. Oh and it's not located only in Japan...
The thing is that it's the seemingly incarnation of good that did this to Ushio.
Toilets other than their obvious use carry a deep meaning, even more for young children.
So telling them to go there to hide their sorrow from everyone isn't something healthy
Oh, and I knew I'd get a negrep from this anyway, thanks.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
Yes, Sanae has Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, and loved that her daughter was sick all the time and is now dead.
Sanae told Ushio to go to toilets to cry probably because she didn't want Ushio to look like a crybaby like Nagisa did. Especially in front of her father. That's why the other stipulation was that Ushio could only cry in her own father's arms, because after that point, he would have accepted her. The point of this roundabout method, I don't know, but Sanae probably knows best. Perhaps Tomoya would have recognized his daughter's plight sooner if he always saw her crying, or perhaps he would have only seen more of Nagisa in her and labeled her more of a burden. The same may be for Sanae. Having another crybaby would remind her of her own deceased daughter. Crying only in the bathroom also gives Ushio the outer appearance of being happy, instead how lonely she has felt until now.
Regarding Tomoya, you've got the cause and effect backward. After Nagisa died, Tomoya kept thinking that everything would have been better off if he had never met Nagisa. He wouldn't feel hurt, beaten down and depressed. He wouldn't have a constant reminder of his dead wife in Ushio (he had asked Sanae whether she was alone or not when she dropped by, referring to her usually bringing Ushio along). Tomoya remembered that Nagisa, though she was weak, had little tricks to give her just enough confidence to continue on. He chose her because he, being the weaker of the two ultimately, was relying so much on her. When everything clicked, he finally figured it out and realized that he was even weaker than his own "deadbeat" father. In her own crybaby way, Nagisa supported Tomoya and his rehabilitation. When he lost her, he went back to the way he was before he met Nagisa. He cries at the end because having finally realizing what he's become, all the memories of how Nagisa supported him flood back, and he relates those to his daughter on the ride back.
In short, when she died, Tomoya forgot why he loved Nagisa. He forgot how she was strong, and could only remember where she was weak. He chose Nagisa for her strengths, but mourned her for her weaknesses.
EDIT: I think this post covers your newest one as well David.
The reason he chose Nagisa was I'm sure because the producers deemed it the best choice and would feed for good drama. And that's just ridiculous. There is no subconscious telling you that he should choose a person to be his wife that he knows is gonna die eventually, so that she would be exactly like his mother. Besides he knew she was weak, that's it. He didn't know what she had, or how severe it was. I'm positive there was no thought in his head when he started dating her that clicked and said "Yep, she's gonna die."
For crying in the bathroom, I honestly thought it was a way for Sanae and Akio to make her a stronger child, and look for comfort from the only one parent she had, and when they were finally ready to be a family. Showing emotions to the public is no different than showing emotions to only those that love you.
There are just other places than toilets right?
And bathroom is a different translation for the word Toilet Ushio uses.
She's got her own bedroom, that's a place of her own and she can go there if it's too painful for Sanae and Akio. I know I've been a bit far with my saying Sanae was responsible for Nagisa's bad health. But Ushio's comments really angered greatly.
Regarding Tomoya, at first he knew fairly fast that she was weak in body and the storytelling kept reminding us.
Eventually, after living long enough with her, he knew how feeble she can be, there's even that particular dream.
I'm not saying he did it consciously, or wilingly, it's just that it happened to be like that and that there's more than statistics behing it. Psychology is a hard thing, and some of our choices are tainted by our experiences in life, even against our reasoning.
It wasn't wanted, it wasn't conscious, but after all he dated a health fragile girl, then share life with her and eventhough she was that fragile they had a baby. And I know what it means, really. But I guess that when you're out of such situations, you can't understand.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
The reason Ushio uses "toilet" instead of "bathroom" is probably because most Japanese houses do not have a bathtub in the same room as the toilet. That's not the point of why Sanae told her to use the toilet to cry. Is Ushio's bedroom accessible everywhere she goes? Is a closet? The kitchen? No. Sanae told her to cry in toilets because nearly everywhere she may go, there will be a toilet she can excuse herself to. No one will think, "I need to use the toilet," will mean that she is going to go cry. It makes it appear that Ushio just needs to go to the bathroom, a perfectly normal occurrence for children her age. She can cry all she wants, as many times as she wants, and no one will notice.
Think back just one episode. How many times did Ushio go to the toilet? It really changes the dynamics of that episode if you think that way. Tomoya caught her finishing her tears on the train, but he waited the other times in Sanae's house. Ushio was almost certainly crying most of those times. Sanae and Akio had run off after promising to go with her. Her father shows up, and is as usual cold to her. Her favorite toy broke, she fell, etc. Why wouldn't a five year old cry in those situations?
That episode wasn't so shiny and bright like we all thought it was, was it?
As for the rest, Tomoya took the risk of having a child with her. He loved Nagisa, and they did ecchi things together.In the end, he thought she'd be fine, but that's the way things ended up. He couldn't cope as a result. Don't confuse the cause and effect.
You're looking too deeply into this. This isn't Evangelion, Lain, Now and Then Here or There, School Days, or White Album.
Ok let's say I just put in some out of subject things that made the ep not as fine for me as it was for others. I'm aware of that too.
Last edited by David75; Sun, 02-15-2009 at 11:37 AM.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
Great message that this series sends, though: "Have sex and someone dies"
:-/
Small thing but don't she actually cried in ep 17 when she went to the bathroom because she kept saying she did it on her own which she also did in ep 18, not to mention both of the times in ep 17 she said what she was going to do even in ep 18. The only time we know for sure she cried in the bathroom she just left on her own without saying anything.
You are here alone again
In your sweet insanity
All too calm, you hide yourself from reality
Do you call it solitude? Do you call it liberty?
When all the world turns away to leave you lonely
One could equally suppose that she says that every time, either way. The point was that no one else would really know. It's possible she was crying those times, and maybe not.
You're right though, I should have said, "certainly crying some of those times" instead of, "certainly crying most of those times."
The first thing that really struck me was that that robot was incredibly similar to the opening scene robot, as mentioned. I think more important significance was what Ushio said, that it was the first thing Tomoya bought for her.
It seems as though we'll finally have a chance for Tomoya and his father to interact more. I wonder if he'll help his father get back on his feet before sending him home.
Will Ushio stay with Tomoya at his apartment or will he move back in with Sanae and Akki...err Akio?
I'd think the best thing would be:
a) Tomoya moves back in with Akio & Sanae. Them two still know Ushio best, and can teach Tomoya how to actually care for a child.
or
b) Tomoya moves back in with his dad, taking Ushio with him. Without Akki and Sanae, she'd be able to get some more time with her dad, while caring for his grandson would also give Tomoya's dad a starting point to work on, since he's lost his job and friends.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
wow this ep has flared up many debates.....
neways... i liked this ep no matter what ne1 says.
1st off now has anyone began to think that the illusionary world is a parallel of tomoya and ushio?ie. the robot doll and how tomoya HAS heard the play nagisa played in s1 and its the 1st thing ushio's dad gave to her and how the girl decided to make a robot...and about the bathroom comments everyone's flaming about ever thought as to WHY sanae never shows a sad expression? Why is she always so cheerful? yea it could be her nature but she just lost her only daughter were else is she going to cry? in he r room with akio? sanae doesnt seem that type of character. In a closet? Im sure its a more plausible option but were is the most (for some) private place in the home for many families?a place were no one can interrupt you? I know im probably personifying these characters too much but how do you think sanae feels every time she sees ushio? a reminder of her daughter every day and every night. even a normal person would break. i know from personal experience how hard it is to smile every time you look at someone or something that brings back memories from the you lost 2 years nor 5 years maybe not even a lifetime can you ever truly forget them.sry going off-topic. the way i see it in a way yea sanae might of suggested some other "place to cry" but i see the bathroom/toilet idea somewhat feasible now as to comments about his regretting ever meeting nagisa what are you supposed to do when you meet the one person that supports you and you cant help but to support them back? are you guys going to just ignore that person?...i realize this will cause more flames so i will stop. hmm whats next...from the looks of it tomoya might finaly forgive/relive his father from his duties seeing how hard it was for tomoya and finally understanding what his father did for him we might get the conclusion to him and his father's problems.
@Buffalobiian
b) ..., while caring for his grandson (who's grandson?)would also give Tomoya's dad a starting point to work on(work on what?), since he's lost his job and friends.
im usually not critical about other people's post but im somewhat lost as to what you have posted. no matter what the circumstances i highly doubt tomoya would want his father to take care of his daughter secondly after tomoya finally forgives or whatever he decides on doing what are the chances that his father will stay around much less take care of his son's daughter after he did what he did to his own son yea he might wanna reconcile and change but at this point i highly doubt its possible again im sorry im not trying to offend you or anything but i just dont see anything plausible in that particular statement
Last edited by k1sousuke; Sun, 02-15-2009 at 11:53 PM.
All that we see or seem to see is but a dream within a dream
That's way too annoying to read...paragraphs would be helpful
Woh. Let me break that up.
You moved onto your second point after this without explaining. Now I'm lost as to why you say this.No matter what the circumstances, I highly doubt Tomoya would want his father to take care of his daughter.
After he did what to his own son? Raise him up when he was still ~5years old, swallowing the pain and keeping up his smile in front of Tomoya because he still depended on his father? Sure, he snapped towards the end, getting drunk and all, but he was strong enough to stay in shape when Tomoya needed him most. Comparing this to Tomoya, he was a stronger person. Tomoya realises this now himself, which is why he's now both ashamed of his own collapse and able to forgive his dad.Secondly, after Tomoya finally forgives or whatever he decides on doing, what are the chances that his father will stay around, much less take care of his son's daughter after he did what he did to his own son.
I do agree on your point that Grand-dad's not going to stick around though. The old lady did ask for him to come home.
Why not? He held himself up all those years because he had to take care of someone (Tomoya). Being the sole support of a kid that young, he would have told himself not to fall apart. By loving and caring for that child, he was able to change from his depressed state, at least for a while. Taking care of a child is also extremely busy, thus taking up his time instead of letting him sink into depressed thoughts and actions (drinking). I think there was a reason why Tomoya's dad broke later rather than earlier.Yeah, he might wanna reconcile and change but at this point I highly doubt it's possible.
That's why I'm saying getting him to take care of Ushio isn't a bad idea.
No offense taken, just really hard to read.Again I'm sorry, I'm not trying to offend you or anything but i just don't see anything plausible in that particular statement
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
The biggest reason why Tomoya hated his father was because he kept treating Tomoya like a stranger, even though his father didn't mean to do that, and possibly another reason is that he slammed his son into the wall, causing his shoulder to dislocate permanently so he lost his place in playing basketball.
I agree with you that the girl and the robot mirrors Ushio and Tomoya, and that losing that robot doll will probably end in some terrible event for the girl and the robot in the illusionary world, as well as Ushio and Tomoya.
She probably did when Nagisa died, which can be said with the same thing to Akio; it's just that the scene was never animated to make them look liked they cried, but it's heavily implied at the end of the scene when Tomoya breaks down.WHY sanae never shows a sad expression?
I am training in the shadows.
Currently playing: All of your games, probably.
sorry its kinda hard to write paragraphs at 3am om my 14th straight night at work. that's what i wrote on my cell phone and i didnt have time to break it up b/c something came up and buff now i under stand what you wrote i was just tired.
again, it just doesnt seem like tomoya's dad would want to raise his daughter. not that he failed or anything but does he still have the strength or the will to raise another child? yea it would be helpful and be in a way a sort of redemption for the bridge he created but to me it seems like he's too exhausted for the parenting job he did what he could with tomoya to the point where he himself got tired so that makes me wonder if he could even do it again?
ill edit my previous post later today so ppl can actually read it kinda hard to write properly on a cellphone
All that we see or seem to see is but a dream within a dream
[AQS][Sprocket][TWH] Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 19: Download
I am training in the shadows.
Currently playing: All of your games, probably.
That was quite the magical episode, the same feel good feeling from a Disney movie.
Tomoya also looked a lot more mature. He had those eyebags which I don't recall him having last episode.
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