Naruto Shippuuden Episode 74

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

I thought that we all agreed, or maybe it was just me...

You can do whatever you want. Although if you do have an affinity for a certain type your jutsu's are just going to be more advanced.

That work for anyone as an explaination?

[Yukimura]

I think certain people are just getting caught up on terminology (again). Your affinity is the element type that your chakra is most easily manipulated into. The ability to manipulate your chakra into a particular nature is a different thing. If Sharingan let you use any jutsu regardless of your ability to use nature manipulation then Sasuke wouldn't have had to learn nature manipulation to use Chidori. He would have just looked at Kakashi perform it and then instantly been able to do it too. Yet this is not what happened, Sasuke, a genius with Sharingan had to actually work hard and learn to use nature manipulation so he could use chidori, even after he'd seen it with his Sharingan.

I have yet to see any evidence that Sharingan's jutsu copy ability is anything more than a combination of hyper acute perception and memory for details, mixed with the natural talent anyone can develop to mimic behaviors they intrinsically understand. Sharingan users can watch and perceive every detail of how a person molds their chakra while their performing a technique. This knowledge is likely what makes it so easy for them to replicate the same effect the original user got even without being taught the way the original user was.

However just as you can't copy a jutsu that uses more chakra than you can produce you can't copy a jutsu that requires you to manipulate chakra in a way you don't know how to do (until you learn how to manipulate it that way of course).

[Jessper]

Yet this is not what happened, Sasuke, a genius with Sharingan had to actually work hard and learn to use nature manipulation so he could use chidori, even after he'd seen it with his Sharingan.

Minus the part where it isn't a Jutsu?

All in all I'm not sure why there is such a big argument over this. We don't have evidence either way since the whole subject is pretty hush hush so why put all that effort into asserting you are correct?

[Abdula]

We don't have evidence either way since the whole subject is pretty hush hush so why put all that effort into asserting you are correct?

That's all I've been trying to say.

[Archangel]

However just as you can't copy a jutsu that uses more chakra than you can produce you can't copy a jutsu that requires you to manipulate chakra in a way you don't know how to do (until you learn how to manipulate it that way of course).

Exactly my point.

[Yukimura]

It bothers me when people draw conclusions like "Anyone with Sharingan could learn any jutsu with no other effort required other than looking at the jutsu". That idea demeans the fact that all three of the people we've seen use the Sharingan were reputed as geniuses before they ever even activated their sharingans. Attributing everything they accomplished to Sharingan Shenanigans demeans their individual talent and cheapens their characters to Naruto levels.

[Buffalobiian]

Do medic-nin abandon regular combat training for medical jutsu? Because from the tree climbing exercise, Sakura is capable of chakra control to the highest level.

[DarthEnderX]

I think certain people are just getting caught up on terminology (again). Your affinity is the element type that your chakra is most easily manipulated into. The ability to manipulate your chakra into a particular nature is a different thing. If Sharingan let you use any jutsu regardless of your ability to use nature manipulation then Sasuke wouldn't have had to learn nature manipulation to use Chidori. He would have just looked at Kakashi perform it and then instantly been able to do it too. Yet this is not what happened, Sasuke, a genius with Sharingan had to actually work hard and learn to use nature manipulation so he could use chidori, even after he'd seen it with his Sharingan.

I have yet to see any evidence that Sharingan's jutsu copy ability is anything more than a combination of hyper acute perception and memory for details, mixed with the natural talent anyone can develop to mimic behaviors they intrinsically understand. Sharingan users can watch and perceive every detail of how a person molds their chakra while their performing a technique. This knowledge is likely what makes it so easy for them to replicate the same effect the original user got even without being taught the way the original user was.

However just as you can't copy a jutsu that uses more chakra than you can produce you can't copy a jutsu that requires you to manipulate chakra in a way you don't know how to do (until you learn how to manipulate it that way of course).

This. All of this.

[Archangel]

Do medic-nin abandon regular combat training for medical jutsu? Because from the tree climbing exercise, Sakura is capable of chakra control to the highest level.

Well we haven't seen many medical nin but from what can tell only people with a high level of chakra control can learn this healing method, after they master it they use it to heal themselves and their team members during combat. As for their style of fighting they all seem to have their individual one almost always based on a technique that itself requires a high degree of chakra control ( tsunade's and sakura's power kicks and punches, kabuto's "scalpel hands", shizune's poison attacks, etc )

[KrayZ33]

I think medical nin's don't focus on elemental jutsus, but on techniques which require a good chakra control or are based on chakra manipulation.
they are probably a bit like Neji's techniques...just not so "gentle" kabuto for example also tried to hit certain spots to disable some body functions or to irritate the nerve-system. and so on

so basically: ya, they abadon regular combat training.

Sakura's combat training for example was focussed on dodging.
So I guess they train their chakra control + Taijutsu only

[DarthEnderX]

Well, its not even like you need to use an element to kick ass. I mean, characters like Chouji and Shikamaru do fine with no elemental attack. And hell, Lee can't even do ninjitsu, elemental or otherwise, and he kicks more ass than anyone!

[Archangel]

In Lee's case you're right but those other 2 seem to relie on shadow and/or light manipulation, which apparently allows as much ( or even more ) diversity in attacks as controlling 1 or 2 elements..

I mean just look at shikamaru, he can control the enemy, choke him, use the shadow as spikes and who knows what else.

[Buffalobiian]

I mean just look at shikamaru, he can control the enemy, choke him, use the shadow as spikes and who knows what else.

We haven't seen that yet. The OP doesn't count

[Archangel]

Lol even if the OP doesn't count you've seen it when he used it against Sai's ink dogs

I'm always very careful not to drop the ball on any spoilers when posting here

[Buffalobiian]

Lol even if the OP doesn't count you've seen it when he used it against Sai's ink dogs

I'm always very careful not to drop the ball on any spoilers when posting here

..You win.

[DarthEnderX]

Well, even if we consider Shikamaru's jutsu as some kind of dark-element manipulation, you can't say Chouji's attacks are element based.

Also, there things like Genjutsu and puppetry etc. that have nothing to do with elements.

[Abdula]

Well I don't know about puppetry, I think the idea of ninjas using puppets was pretty stupid anyway but medical jutsu, genjutsu, chouji's jutsus etc are all yin and yang.. So anything that can't be explained by just shape manipulation or nature manipulation or both is supposedly yin/yang, which Kishi conveniently hasn't explained.

[DarthEnderX]

Well, puppetry is just chakra shape manipulation, since you form it into strings through which to control your puppets.

Its just that, for example, while Rasengan is supposedly the highest level of shape manipulation, forming strings is probably alot lower. But you have to make alot more of them, and use them with much more precision.

[Archangel]

Wouldn't the chakra strings used in puppetry be considered shape manipulation? there's actually an example in the manga that would backup this theory quite nicely, you probably know what i'm talking about Abdula.

Edit: Lol Darth beat me to it

As for chouji's jutsu, it's probably some sort of shadow manipulation. Goes with teh samke principle of the kage bunshin but instead of creating more matter in separate bodies he just adds more to himself. Shitty explanation i know, but till Kishi comes up with something half believable to explain this, it's what i'm going with

[DarthEnderX]

EDIT: Double post