TV/Movie General Discussion

[Assertn]

Getting back on topic, isn't the internet wonderful? You can witness firsthand the descent of human behavior much like this Hierarchy of Disagreement. It's almost as if every subsequent post is a step down the pyramid!

[Buffalobiian]

Getting back on topic, isn't the internet wonderful? You can witness firsthand the descent of human behavior much like this Hierarchy of Disagreement. It's almost as if every subsequent post is a step down the pyramid!

Staying above yellow is the key. Aim high if you can, but don't yellow.

[Abdula]

Typical, I have never called anyone an ass hat though, I have no idea what that is.

[Animeniax]

No thanks, you`re right ironically.

Oh, i missed this lovely part.

I don`t know if they do but let me ask you this... Do you? Do you see Iron man an suddenly feel all patriotic and shit?

Not exactly but then I'm not the best American and I don't buy into most of our policies or pop culture. It's mostly an inherent pride instead of an overt one when I see how the US is faring in the world, and how our products/policies are received in the international sphere.

I imagine you watching one of our movies is like when I watch one of your country's movies: with a detached feeling of being an outsider looking in on a social science experiment. Considering how much Asian media we consume, I'm sure you know that looking glass feeling that I'm talking about. I think it'd be like the Japanese watching Ultraman compared to when I watch Ultraman. There's going to be a different feeling there.

As I stated earlier, there's a reason domestic totals match or exceed international box office numbers for most Hollywood movies. American movies are made for an American audience's American dollars.

Your comparison is not valid here Ani, because you're doubting the way his countrymen live their life - and he's one of their countrymen.

It could easily be argued he's not representative of his countrymen or that he does not have an understanding of social policies and realities in his own country. He's in medical school, which could mean he's privileged and not fully aware of the world outside his university campus.

Ani are you having an ego trip because you are American? Besides, I am not from a foreign market, I live here and you still don't make any sense to me. So is success a raw figure. Does every movie have to make 1.5 billion to be successful or is it a certain profit margin or percentage?

Social and economic problems, lazy. Wow

How is it an ego trip to state the obvious? American movies are made for American audiences. How much money a movie makes is the principle determination of whether it is a success or not. No there is no exact number, but it is a general rule. And just because you're American doesn't mean you know what's going on here. I'm finding more and more that people are politically and socially disengaged and just concerned about their own little problems in their own little world. Understanding Hollywood and entertainment media isn't that important, which makes it all the more frustrating having to explain to you how it works.

[darkshadow]

As I stated earlier, there's a reason domestic totals match or exceed international box office numbers for most Hollywood movies. American movies are made for an American audience's American dollars.

As with everything else in life, you are wrong once again; the only movies that do as good or better in the US market are the ones that get little, or much later, exposure internationally, for everything else the US market just gets destroyed by international grosses.
Or in other words they can only do as good or better when hollywood isn't bringing them overseas with the same level of attention.

[Kraco]

If you look at it from a slightly different perspective, how likely would you be getting funding from the American studios and other US movie investors (whatever those might be) for a big-budget movie if everybody could see at a first glance it would most likely flop in the USA but might make profit in the rest of the world? And for the argument's sake, let's say your last name isn't Spielberg or anything like that.

I reckon this is also the difference between a normal movie and a sequel n#, which would have already proven financially viable.

[Animeniax]

As with everything else in life, you are wrong once again; the only movies that do as good or better in the US market are the ones that get little, or much later, exposure internationally, for everything else the US market just gets destroyed by international grosses.
Or in other words they can only do as good or better when hollywood isn't bringing them overseas with the same level of attention.

I think I preferred thinking you were ignoring my posts than having to address your fallacious points and catty demeanor.

There is a reason American movies don't get as much international exposure and hence don't make as much money... because they are American movies aimed at an American audience. It goes back to my point that Hollywood cares more about the domestic market than the international market. Of course 6.2 billion potential paying viewers can "destroy" the grosses compared to 300 million people.

If you look at it from a slightly different perspective, how likely would you be getting funding from the American studios and other US movie investors (whatever those might be) for a big-budget movie if everybody could see at a first glance it would most likely flop in the USA but might make profit in the rest of the world? And for the argument's sake, let's say your last name isn't Spielberg or anything like that.

I reckon this is also the difference between a normal movie and a sequel n#, which would have already proven financially viable.

Exactly. A movie that is guaranteed to flop in the US but could see big paydays internationally will not be made by a Hollywood studio. They won't take the risk.

[Ryllharu]

@Ani:

I think it is time you quit dodging the question. What makes you an expert?

Either explain to us exactly how you simply being American gives you the edge to understanding what is considered Hollywood Profitability, or just stop. The others seems to understand the business side of things quite a bit better than you, detailing the additional markets, marketing, and the vague figure where success is deemed achieved when the box office returns are a multiple of the budget.

You're not in "the industry." You can't give us a detailed breakdown of what mark decides whether or not an executive will greenlight a sequel, or even if they were contracted to make sequels from the start, or cancel that when the first one bombs. You don't seem to understand that the worldwide market frequently destroys the domestic market (no matter where the movie is from). You never touched on why Uwe Boll is still allowed to make movies.

I'm American, but I also understand enough about Hollywood to realize that I don't know what or who the fuck makes decisions there and especially why. As far as I can tell, they throw a peanut butter covered corn cob into a bin of squirrels with movie titles stenciled on to them and the next film greenlit is the one who hangs on to it for more than 5 minutes.

One of the bigger names in Hollywood is Jon Peters, who got his big break by being Barbra Streisand's hairdresser. He went on to produce An American Werewolf in London, Rain Man, the Keaton Batman movies (the better ones of the initial four that you believe are forgettable, and not the bland 3rd Nolan film), Superman Returns, and will be on the credits for Man of Steel. He's a weird dude.

And things get even weirder in post-production, where good movies become terrible ones, and decent movies become great. One example is test screenings. The whole process is really badly done because it is rarely (effectively never) the same group of people responding to the changes.

So, please tell us where your expertise comes from.

[Carnage]

Ahahahaha they're making Johnny Storm Black? I agree with Animeniax on this one, its silly for Hollywood to mess with basic identities for well established characters. I think its great to include new superheros who are of diverse race/gender to make comics more inclusive like Jon Stewart and Static Shock. Yeah they'll appeal to wider audiences and rake in more money for the studio. But as someone with no skin in the game (Im Middle Eastern) I have to say its offensive to long-time fans of these characters to change them so drastically. Yeah Miles Morales isn't white but at least they didn't change Peter Parker.

Holy shit, people just love to super read into race and spin any deviation from what's expected in the worst way possible.

Casting isn't some "conspiracy" by the distributor to target to certain race demographics. It's like you people completely obliterate the notion that casting directors/directors (who don't really even answer to distributors to THAT extent) are INDIVIDUALS and normal ass people just like you and you twist it into some huge social conspiracy, as if the people who work their asses off to create their vision of the movie owe you something. This is hilarious due to the great financial risk and hard work it takes to even make a movie (of which you're not even obligated to watch), and the fact that the movie will prolly fall into obscurity in 2 years due to a remake anyway.

Actually, from what I've seen of casting calls (and I read Actor's Access and Backstage daily while living in NYC), they probably had the lead role as a "Caucasian, 20s" description, or whatever the comic book says. They still audition a variety people and it's actually pretty cool that Jordan got cast even though they were looking for someone else. It means he had great cast chemistry or something great about him that made the producers pick him over others (even the white ones OMGGG). It's amazing how people who know nothing of the casting process take everything as a personal affront without informing themselves.

You have to be delusional not to see Hollywood pushing a diversity agenda. Not that there's anything wrong with it or that it isn't great, but the way they do it is so blatant and degrading to its audience.

As interested as we are in hearing about the chump change you make on stocks. Are you a millionaire with all that wheeling and dealing yet?

No reason to get so personal.


Back to the original article, Cracked writers are so fucking stupid. The last point:

The thing is, the only reason these characters were white in the first place was that comic books were created in a time when nobody would have printed a book about a non-white superhero (having female superheroes was difficult enough, and they were handled with something less than dignity)."

No, its not like Stan Lee had the original intention to make his iconic superheros black but couldn't because it was the 60s. Its not hard to understand that white writers from before the 70s wrote with culture/identities they were familiar with, and ended up with white characters. It isn't racist for writers/authors to have created protagonists that would appeal to their audience. For some reason white people are often bashed for having had predominantly white protagonists in their stories, but asian/black/hispanics aren't held to the same standard. Its not a crime for white authors to have written characters that would appeal to a majority of the audience (white Americans).

What I would find offensive is when casting directors change characters to fit my profile to appeal to me as if I were insecure enough to need something to be taken away from white people and given to me. I would much more appreciate they be creative enough to write a new interesting character.

[Sapphire]

You have to be delusional not to see Hollywood pushing a diversity agenda. Not that there's anything wrong with it or that it isn't great, but the way they do it is so blatant and degrading to its audience.

Not really. If you watch UK television/movies for a season or two you'll see how not diverse our stuff is. Most likely because of the supreme stick up their ass baggage everyone here has about race (see: every post in this thread). The fact that you call hiring black people or other minorities an "agenda" that "degrades the audience" says a lot about your views on "race".

[Carnage]

No, I said the way they do it is degrading, but obviously you didn't get to the end of my post. I already stated that I'm glad they include everyone, you simply read only what you want to read because of the stick up your ass. As I already said, it being an agenda doesn't mean it is a bad one. Your wishes that America should incorporate more diversity imply that you might have an agenda to cast more ethnic actors should you ever be a casting director. And I think that's fine/great, as long as its done responsibly.

And just because UK entertainment is more diverse, that doesn't mean ours isn't. For a country that is 50% white, I think we do a fine job of incorporating diversity in our media. Considering African Americans are 13%, Hispanic American are 14%, and Asian Americans are 4% of the total population, I think we represent most everyone pretty fairly. Like I said, I'm of Middle Eastern descent, so I probably get the least representation of all. But I understand that relative to the population of as a whole there aren't many like me, which is why there are fewer brown people on NBC, CBS, ABC, Hollywood, etc. I'm not insecure enough to need the entertainment industry to change iconic identities to appeal to me, I would rather appreciate characters for who they are/were. If NBC decides to write a new show called The Big Bang Theory with an Indian as one of the leading characters, awesome. They shouldn't make Batman an Arab though.

[Sapphire]

Wat. You mistake my observation that UK TV is more racially diverse for a "wish" that American TV is more racially diverse. Kind of a mix of two different issues. Sure, I'd be nice to see more colors on TV, but I'm more leaning towards stopping watching TV all together than getting all bent out of shape over racial demographics.

PS, the care I have for race has been infinitesimally little ever since we realized that "race" is nothing but a social mechanism for discrimination and there's like zero genetic difference between race; all we really observe are inherited expression of physical characteristics. Race is little more than a vague and highly subjective "club" you put yourself in.

In terms of comic book movies, I'm questioning why you feel so entitled that other people's work live up to your standards racial fidelity. You even seem to be hyper-personalizing the issue by saying "take from white race" and give to "this/that/your" race.

[UChessmaster]

Ahahahaha they're making Johnny Storm Black? I agree with Animeniax on this one, its silly for Hollywood to mess with basic identities for well established characters

Essentially every comic book movie changes a "basic" identity for well established characters, this is not new and it`s not silly, it`s called adjusting to the times. Also, I`d like to point out you just agreed with Animeniax.

[Carnage]

Wat. You mistake my observation that UK TV is more racially diverse for a "wish" that American TV is more racially diverse. Kind of a mix of two different issues.

Really? You just contradicted yourself one sentence later

Sure, I'd be nice to see more colors on TV

Also,

If you watch UK television/movies for a season or two you'll see how not diverse our stuff is. Most likely because of the supreme stick up their ass baggage everyone here has about race

Yeah, really sounds like you don't care.

But I'm more leaning towards stopping watching TV all together than getting all bent out of shape over racial demographics.

Pretty typical, after losing the argument you run away from it altogether.

PS, the care I have for race has been infinitesimally little ever since we realized that "race" is nothing but a social mechanism for discrimination and there's like zero genetic difference between race; all we really observe are inherited expression of physical characteristics. Race is little more than a vague and highly subjective "club" you put yourself in.

So its wrong to identify yourself with a particular culture/ethnicity/history? Seems to me that you're suppressing how much you care about the issue by pretending it doesn't exist. We're all equally human, and everyone in the U.S. is equally American. But if you want to throw away racial identity then you may as well throw away every other identity except for our human one. Which you can do if you want, but aside that it is hypocritical to select certain identities as valid (i.e. national) over others (racial/ethnic/gender).

You even seem to be hyper-personalizing the issue by saying "take from white race" and give to "this/that/your" race.

No shit I'm personalizing it because I want to show a lack of bias toward the white perspective as a non-european descendant. For every instance in which I referred to myself, pretend that the substance of the comments would apply to me as a minority in general, not just myself.

In terms of comic book movies, I'm questioning why you feel so entitled that other people's work live up to your standards racial fidelity.

1. Not in terms of comic book movies, but all historical icons. Unless part of the message of a re-written story is the universality of its content (i.e. Romeo & Juliet taking place outside of Italy), re-writing significant characteristics of characters intrudes on the integrity of the memory of their stories. Would it be right to cast Frederick Douglas or Harriet Tubman as white in a movie? Why do you feel entitled to disregarding other people's histories and identities?

Essentially every comic book movie changes a "basic" identity for well established characters, this is not new and it`s not silly, it`s called adjusting to the times.

What comic book movies have you been watching? Wolverine is accuretely depicted as he was from the X-men comics, Superman is always a boyscout, Batman is always brooding, Peter Parker is always a wise-ass.

Also, I`d like to point out you just agreed with Animeniax.

Literally read the second sentence of my first post.

[UChessmaster]

What comic book movies have you been watching? Wolverine is accuretely depicted as he was from the X-men comics, Superman is always a boyscout, Batman is always brooding, Peter Parker is always a wise-ass.

There`s nothing detective-ish about Batman in Rises, don`t remember the other movies. Wolverine doesn`t has the right height (hey, if people are going to say characters have the wrong skin tone i can say he has the wrong height right? since it`s an iconic part of the character), Magneto is not a fragile old man, Phoenix is an entity on its own, it`s not an extension of jean her psychic powers, The green goblin doesn`t dresses like a power rangers, Mary Jane is not princess peach, the sandman didn`t killed uncle ben, should i go on?

Literally read the second sentence of my first post.

"I think its great to include new superheros who are of diverse race/gender to make comics more inclusive like Jon Stewart and Static Shock."

This one? What about it?

[Sapphire]

somehow misinterpreting everything Sapphi said

I'm passing on this argument under the assumption that you and I disagree about the basics (and ironically, fidelity) of the English language.

Edit to address below post: Yes, I run away from lost causes. As to whether or not that constitutes "failture," I suppose depends on how patient (or desperate) you are to argue with someone who doesn't understand your basic points.

[Carnage]

There`s nothing detective-ish about Batman in Rises, don`t remember the other movies.

Other than figuring out who Talia Al Ghul was, and that she was the child to escape from the pit?

Wolverine doesn`t has the right height (hey, if people are going to say characters have the wrong skin tone i can say he has the wrong height right? since it`s an iconic part of the character), Magneto is not a fragile old man, Phoenix is an entity on its own, it`s not an extension of jean her psychic powers,

True, but Hugh Jackman fit every other quality so well it was worth an incredibly tiny sacrifice (short height doesn't immediatly come to mind when people think "Wolverine"). The Pohoenix character in the movies was an abomination, so this actually supports my point of keeping character integrity. And Magneto's identity as a jewish survivor of the holocaust was much more important than his physique. He is an old man either way in the comics/movies.

The green goblin doesn`t dresses like a power rangers, Mary Jane is not princess peach, the sandman didn`t killed uncle ben, should i go on?

The producers probably had to give the Norman Osborne a suit for practical reasons. Graphics back then weren't as advanced as they are today. Notice in the Amazing Spiderman they're working on a chemical formula that will likely produce an actual monster Green Goblin. Mary Jane having to be saved is typical in the comics, I don't know what you're talking about there.

And Spider-Man 3 was god-awful, which again, proves my point of sticking to the integrity of the characters.

"I think its great to include new superheros who are of diverse race/gender to make comics more inclusive like Jon Stewart and Static Shock."

This one? What about it?

Wrong, that's my third sentence. Look at the one before it.

Fails to support argument, and again run away from argument altogether

[Animeniax]

@Ani:I think it is time you quit dodging the question. What makes you an expert?

It's a ridiculous question not worth spending time on. I don't have to be "an expert" to know general trends and views in Hollywood that have pervaded our entire lives. Everything in America centers around our entertainment industry, but I need a degree in RTF to speak knowledgeably about it?

[UChessmaster]

Other than figuring out who Talia Al Ghul was, and that she was the child to escape from the pit?

He figured it out? I thought she spelled it out for him when she stabbed him. I`m probably wrong then, since I barely remember anything from the Nolan`s movies.

EDIT: Just rewatched the scene, Talia admits to being Ra`s kid (he thought it was Bane?), then she specifies that it was she that climbed the wall. Batman didn`t figure out jackshit.

True, but Hugh Jackman fit every other quality so well it was worth an incredibly tiny sacrifice (short height doesn't immediatly come to mind when people think "Wolverine"). The Pohoenix character in the movies was an abomination, so this actually supports my point of keeping character integrity. And Magneto's identity as a jewish survivor of the holocaust was much more important than his physique. He is an old man either way in the comics/movies.

Yeah, Hugh Jackman pulled out even though he was tall, this is because he is a great actor and trust me, fans bitched a lot when he was casted; yes, because of his height. Likewise, why can`t the new johnny storm pull it off? because he`s black? give me one good reason besides why he can`t pull the role besides his skin color.

[Carnage]

He figured it out? I thought she spelled it out for him when she stabbed him. I`m probably wrong then, since I barely remember anything from the Nolan`s movies.

EDIT: Just rewatched the scene, Talia admits to being Ra`s kid (he thought it was Bane?), then she specifies that it was she that climbed the wall. Batman didn`t figure out jackshit.

Still a detective story. And they already covered the detective aspects of Batman very well in the first two movies. You're picking at straws now, because there is a huge difference between the final installment of the Dark Knight Trilogy focusing on Bruce Wayne's reconciliation with Fox turning Johnny Storm black.

Yeah, Hugh Jackman pulled out even though he was tall, this is because he is a great actor and trust me, fans bitched a lot when he was casted; yes, because of his height. Likewise, why can`t the new johnny storm pull it off? because he`s black? give me one good reason besides why he can`t pull the role besides his skin color.

Im not doubting actor's ability to portray Johnny Storm's personality, but the fact of the matter is that Johnny Storm is white. You seem to have difficulty seeing that this is much more noticeable than a few inches on an actor.

Edit: How stupid would it be for Blade or Static Shock to be White?