One Piece Chapter 511

[Splash!]

Nothings bad about it. However, what makes you think that Roger, Whitebeard and Shanks knew it? Because they had to go to the NW and pass by Kizaru, Akainu or Aokiji? If that is your argument then I don't think you have much a base for you backing. They had huge crews much much much bigger than Luffy's crew. Even when they were young building their crews up. Granted, if you say that they knew how to beat a logia user, and there were people in their crews strong enough to learn as well, then ok I'll accept that.

I am confused. Are you saying that pirates of 'ye olde times' knew of ways to beat typical logia users but that doesn't translate into beating someone of an admiral level? because I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you there.

What do you mean you just leveled up every logia user in the series? I don't understand quite what you meant by that.

I think what Death Boo Z means is that any logia users we see from now on in the New World will most likely know of more advanced ways to utilize their devil fruit abilities because the possibility of being harmed physically calls for better methods of offense/defense.

[docdan63]

I am confused. Are you saying that pirates of 'ye olde times' knew of ways to beat typical logia users but that doesn't translate into beating someone of an admiral level? because I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you there.

Yes thats what I'm saying. But, I was elaborating further by saying that the pirates now, don't have as many crew members, but each one they do have is very skilled and equal of like, 10 guys of a rookie back in WBs' and Shanks' days. Plus I think they had harder times getting through stuff because they didn't have the same concentrated highly skilled crew members. I can't speak for the future and I'm not trying too. I'm speaking for the past and what the past has become. Any Yonkou commander can probably take 3, 4, 5, or 6 pascifistas down with one hand tied behind they're back. Other wise WB wouldn't be confident enough to declare war on a group that has all logia (we might as well count Akainu as a logia folks, come on) users and a massive fleet underneath them which as admirals, they probably know some good tactics for ship maneuvers too. I'm saying that Luffy's crew is strong very, but I think where Luffy's crew is now, WB's and Shanks' were much stronger, and growing exponentially with crew members, ships, commander powers, and skill.


I think what Death Boo Z means is that any logia users we see from now on in the New World will most likely know of more advanced ways to utilize their devil fruit abilities because the possibility of being harmed physically calls for better methods of offense/defense.

As a NW whore and the fan who wants to see it the most out of any fan ever, I completely agree with that. However, how many more can there be? I mean the elements of the world are drying up in terms of being used in the story.

I mean look:

Ace (fire)
Blackbeard (darkness)
Kizaru (light)
Crocodile (sand. This doesn't count for me, sorry)
Aokiji (ice)
Smoker (smoke . This is iffy for me as well)
Enel (lightning)

The only ones I can think of are:
wind
water
rock (don't know how that would work)
lava (since Enel and Kizaru exist together. Ace and Akainu should be able too as well)

There aren't that many left. And if the NW is filled with ability users who can school Enel and Aokiji, then what will they have?

[docdan63]

I am confused. Are you saying that pirates of 'ye olde times' knew of ways to beat typical logia users but that doesn't translate into beating someone of an admiral level? because I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you there.


I think what Death Boo Z means is that any logia users we see from now on in the New World will most likely know of more advanced ways to utilize their devil fruit abilities because the possibility of being harmed physically calls for better methods of offense/defense.

Yes thats what I'm saying. But, I was elaborating further by saying that the pirates now, don't have as many crew members, but each one they do have is very skilled and equal of like, 10 guys of a rookie back in WBs' and Shanks' days. Plus I think they had harder times getting through stuff because they didn't have the same concentrated highly skilled crew members. I can't speak for the future and I'm not trying too. I'm speaking for the past and what the past has become. Any Yonkou commander can probably take 3, 4, 5, or 6 pascifistas down with one hand tied behind they're back. Other wise WB wouldn't be confident enough to declare war on a group that has all logia (we might as well count Akainu as a logia folks, come on) users and a massive fleet underneath them which as admirals, they probably know some good tactics for ship maneuvers too. I'm saying that Luffy's crew is strong very, but I think where Luffy's crew is now, WB's and Shanks' were much stronger, and growing exponentially with crew members, ships, commander powers, and skill.


As a NW whore and the fan who wants to see it the most out of any fan ever, I completely agree with that. However, how many more can there be? I mean the elements of the world are drying up in terms of being used in the story.

What other element left is there?

I mean look:

Ace (fire)
Blackbeard (darkness)
Kizaru (light)
Crocodile (sand. This doesn't count for me, sorry)
Aokiji (ice)
Smoker (smoke. I'm not sure about this one either but it's Odas baby so he can do whatever he wants)
Enel (lightning)

The only ones I can think of are:
wind
water
rock (don't know how that would work)
lava (since Enel and Kizaru exist together. Ace and Akainu should be able too as well)

There aren't that many left. And if the NW is filled with ability users who can school Enel and Aokiji, then what will they have?

[Assertn]

No doubt about it....Oda has played the logia users as being the strongest in the series longer than the strawhats have been in the grand line. However, we're expected to acknowledge that the yonkou are equal against the marines, even if they represent such a smaller quantity of men and firepower. Surely an admiral wouldn't be able to waltz in and tear their fleets apart, yet unless they had logia users of their own, I don't see how they could do anything to stop them. Raleigh is vastly stronger than all the rookies combined, yet does he even have a devil ability? Do any of the yonkou even have devil abilities?

The series has been running for so long, and yet this has been the closest thing to ACTUAL yonkou-level combat that we've witnessed. Hopefully the next few chapters will shed some light (no pun intended) on what it is exactly that makes these legendary pirates so intimidating.

[docdan63]

No doubt about it....Oda has played the logia users as being the strongest in the series longer than the strawhats have been in the grand line. However, we're expected to acknowledge that the yonkou are equal against the marines, even if they represent such a smaller quantity of men and firepower. Surely an admiral wouldn't be able to waltz in and tear their fleets apart, yet unless they had logia users of their own, I don't see how they could do anything to stop them. Raleigh is vastly stronger than all the rookies combined, yet does he even have a devil ability? Do any of the yonkou even have devil abilities?

The series has been running for so long, and yet this has been the closest thing to ACTUAL yonkou-level combat that we've witnessed. Hopefully the next few chapters will shed some light (no pun intended) on what it is exactly that makes these legendary pirates so intimidating.

Very good point AssertN. TheYonkou have to have at least 1 or 2 logias. Although, OP law says that they're the rarest. Then again, they're the Yonkou so I'm sure that they have ways of getting their hands on soe good ones. And I'm sure they've seen the guidebook on them that Blackbeard saw. So they probably know whats up with the shapes and powers.

All of this logia talk got me thinking. Isn't there a rule somewhere a long time ago when Oda said that two of the same fruits can't exist in 2 different people or something like that? Or it was some kind of weird rule like that. I know it's something like that I just can't put my finger on it.

Like, if Ace dies, doesn't that open the door to someone getting the next fire fire logia because he died? Wouldn't another one float up and a person can eat it then getting his power? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Splash!]

As a NW whore and the fan who wants to see it the most out of any fan ever, I completely agree with that. However, how many more can there be? I mean the elements of the world are drying up in terms of being used in the story.

Yeah, I myself have also wondered what other elements Oda could possibly introduce as they seem to be running out. However, when I say Logia users of the New world, I include people like the admirals, blackbeard, dragon, etc. We really haven't necessarily seen all that they can do with their logia abilities when they are faced with someone who can fight them at an equal level. Maybe this fight (if there is one) between Rayleigh and Kizaru will also serve to show newer ways to use a logia.

Like, if Ace dies, doesn't that open the door to someone getting the next fire fire logia because he died? Wouldn't another one float up and a person can eat it then getting his power? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Yeah thats correct. I think Oda explained that in one of his interviews.

[Assertn]

Like, if Ace dies, doesn't that open the door to someone getting the next fire fire logia because he died? Wouldn't another one float up and a person can eat it then getting his power? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I think you guys are confusing this with my own personal explanation, which is a completely fabricated speculation. (I was the one that suggested that the fruits originated from the depths of the sea, as a reincarnation of the previous owner's ability.)

It is a fact, however, that no two of the same abilities exist. This was stated by Sanji when he got pissed off that Absalom found the invisible fruit.

Also, to continue from my previous post regarding logia's influence in the power struggles...I think there is much to be said about how the yonkou manage to represent so much strength. Why is it that the marines must rely on crazy cybernetics and logia powers to maintain a presence in the world balance, while Shanks is missing an arm and Whitebeard is practically incapacitated, neither have any sort of devil abilities, and yet all hell breaks lose if one of them is angered? It should be safe to assume that Shanks and Whitebeard are the strongest members of their respective crews, so what do they have that nobody else has?

[Splash!]

I think you guys are confusing this with my own personal explanation, which is a completely fabricated speculation. (I was the one that suggested that the fruits originated from the depths of the sea, as a reincarnation of the previous owner's ability.)

Perhaps the part about the fruit floating up from the deep seas, but I think Oda has pointed out that the same Devil fruit powers can't exist AT THE SAME TIME, which means that a new user of the same power may emerge once the previous one dies, which is sort of the point.

[Death BOO Z]

possible suggestion.

most (I.E all) devil fruits belong to pirates, or marine, or some sort of water related people.
the guy eats the plant, dies on the water (or has it's body dropped to the sea), and then the seed of the fruit can grow again, from the dead corpse of the former pirate.

the 'fruit grows from the sea' might be a common case, of a pirate who was killed in marine battles, but the fruit just needs a human corpse to grow again.

[docdan63]

I think you guys are confusing this with my own personal explanation, which is a completely fabricated speculation. (I was the one that suggested that the fruits originated from the depths of the sea, as a reincarnation of the previous owner's ability.)


Also, to continue from my previous post regarding logia's influence in the power struggles...I think there is much to be said about how the yonkou manage to represent so much strength. Why is it that the marines must rely on crazy cybernetics and logia powers to maintain a presence in the world balance, while Shanks is missing an arm and Whitebeard is practically incapacitated, neither have any sort of devil abilities, and yet all hell breaks lose if one of them is angered? It should be safe to assume that Shanks and Whitebeard are the strongest members of their respective crews, so what do they have that nobody else has?

Well, AssertN I think you're right. We don't know where the tree is, but I think many times I've seen clips of fruits in mass quantities floating up to the surface. So I think you have a point with that. As to whether or not the fruit tree is under water, or anything like that, I don't know. I've heard it is in the GL in the NW somewhere. Which would make the fruits appearing in random places floating around, kind of odd and extremely lucky for people. I mean depending on story, or what have you. Do you know how lucky a logia user would have to be to attain that fruit? Plus, at least we know how BB got his fruit. I mean I don't know about you guys, but it's been bugging the fuck out of me how we don't know where or how certain people got their fruits. Mostly logias, but like, how did Lucci get his leopard fruit? How did Aokiji get his? Or Kizaru? Or better yet, Ace for that matter? It's not that big of a deal but it's been bothering me.

I think WB and Shanks just have the presence over time built up. We're starting to see it with Luffy naturally as well. And he's still really young. Which brings me to my next point, WB is really old. His power is probably near Rayleighs, if not greater. I think all of the Yonkou are actually regular men. Their crews on the other hand, nuh uh. Not at all. Most of the power of the Yonkou comes from their crew and fleet(s) IMO. Aokiji only needs his sleep mask and a bike and he's still untouchable and able to go anywhere he wants. Ace only needs his boat and he's good to go (well, before his execution I mean) Although, I have to admit, each Yonkou can probably handle themselves on their own. For example I don't think Kaidou beat Moria with his own crew. He did, broke off on his own, and became really powerful with his own crew after he beat him. At least thats what I've been thinking.

@splash
Why is that everyone seems to think dragon has a logia fruit? Did I miss something way back in the anime that was shown that proved he has one? To me, he seems to be one of the only guys who're actually able to get physically stronger and rely on his men as well as plain good old fashion weaponry to do his dirty work for him. Not a fruit or ability. But if I'm missing something let me know, please. Seriously though everyone has added him to the roster of having a logia fruit. I just want to know why? And if so then what logia do you guys think he has?

[Splash!]

Well, it is an assumption based on the events in chapter 99 and 100. Dragon is believed to have caused the storm that saved Luffy from his execution. The strongs gusts of wind blowing in Loguetown that helped Luffy's crew escape from Smoker and his forces are also attributed to him. Most likely, he is some sort of Wind or Weather logia user.

[docdan63]

Well, it is an assumption based on the events in chapter 99 and 100. Dragon is believed to have caused the storm that saved Luffy from his execution. The strongs gusts of wind blowing in Loguetown that helped Luffy's crew escape from Smoker and his forces are also attributed to him. Most likely, he is some sort of Wind or Weather logia user.

Ah ok interesting. Well then we'll have to wait and see what happens when me see him again. It makes begin considering in terms of story, who Oda chooses to give logias to. I mean does he actually choose carefully by means of certain story traits and ties to certain people? Or does he play the game and randomize it. For example

story line way:
2 of the 3 admirals so far, have logias that make them damn near impossible to even hurt.

random way:
Blackbeard planning to get his fruit was totally random. No one, and I mean no one saw that coming. I don't care what you say no one saw that coming. However, on the flip side, admiral Akainu (the last one) might not have one. He has to be very strong, but that doesn't mean he has a logia. And we also don't know if the red even stands for anything. He can't have fire unless Ace is killed, and consider also that he's had the title of "red dog" the whole time. So he might already have something else. It's probably a safe bet to say that he has one.

So far, Oda has made the logia count evened up. 2 maybe 3 marines have one (although I still think the fleet admiral has one. Oda has to be planning something big for him in the future, and I personally think he's saving a logia for him, a good one too. I haven't figured out how that theory would work, but its on it's way. We don't know how many pirates have logias, but so far it's a bit more than marines. And we also haven't seen any logias that the yonkou might have.

Marine logias:
Aokiji
Kizaru
Blackbeard (assuming he's a part of the government)
smoker

Pirate logias:
Blackbeard (yeah I know just role with it)
Ace
Enel (although I don't know if he was ever considered in either group)
crocodile (he might be in with blackbeard because of his shichibuklai position)

side note:
What is with Oda and his height obsession? Everyone remotely strong, besides luffy and zoro, are freaking trees! Everyone

Robin 6-2 (for a girl!)
Aokiji and Kizaru well above 8-5 feet tall
all of BB's crew above 7 feet easily
Kuma, and Moria 12-11 feet tall
Crocodile 6-6 to 6-9 easily

Most of the new rookies:
Drake 6-4
Hawkins 6-7 most likely
Apoo was like 6-3 or 4
Bonney was like 5-10 1/2
Urogue was at least 6-10 on his own

And it doesn't seem to stopping. Just look at Sentourmaru the axe guy. He's almost as tall as Kuma. Does anyone know why Oda likes to make characters so tall?

[Death BOO Z]

it's believable. bigger people tend to be stronger.
anyways, it's better than similar personalities (shuura no toki, where all the strong guys had the same personality... "Worry about, IDENTITY!")
and far better than most animes, where every strong dude is a complete bisho-sissy-fuck with a clean face and pretty hair (Naruto with no spoilers: haku-neji-itachi, Kimimaru, Deidara, Sasori... and it goes on).
it's also a law in drawing manga, main\important characters are taller than regular ones, the books even say so.

as for logia powers... open up the pokemon chart and Final fantasy magic list: Poison, psychic (what was chrno the fox? logia or paramon?) stone\mud, wind\air, magma, plant (tricky one, but still, Oda can pull it) fog? mirrorman?
you can pull out at least 10 more logia, without going to the absurd. and we still didn't consider legendary zoan like dragon fruit, or chiemara fruit, or minotaour man.

[docdan63]

it's believable. bigger people tend to be stronger.
anyways, it's better than similar personalities (shuura no toki, where all the strong guys had the same personality... "Worry about, IDENTITY!")
and far better than most animes, where every strong dude is a complete bisho-sissy-fuck with a clean face and pretty hair (Naruto with no spoilers: haku-neji-itachi, Kimimaru, Deidara, Sasori... and it goes on).
it's also a law in drawing manga, main\important characters are taller than regular ones, the books even say so.

as for logia powers... open up the pokemon chart and Final fantasy magic list: Poison, psychic (what was chrno the fox? logia or paramon?) stone\mud, wind\air, magma, plant (tricky one, but still, Oda can pull it) fog? mirrorman?
you can pull out at least 10 more logia, without going to the absurd. and we still didn't consider legendary zoan like dragon fruit, or chiemara fruit, or minotaour man.

Yeah I guess that makes sense but like, why so so tall? I mean seriously Kizaru is a building compared to everyone else. And Aokiij was huge. It's like Oda is making sure that the readers know that they're the strongest people in the series. Other than Luffy yeah I guess it makes sense.

About the logias. Using pokemon as an example? really? I guess it's fine as long as you don't start naming them. But in all honesty what were you hoping to accomplish by doing so? Showing what elements are left? Heres what I think whats left and what Oda should bring out

Metal. We need to have someone who can turn into metal. I mean come on who doesn't want a person to be like T-1000 from terminator 2? Everyone wants to see that.

Wood. This is kind of stupid, but I can see it being possible. Doesn't seem very strong though.

Diamond. Damn near just mean I know, but that'd be just bad ass. Good luck beating this guy.

Lava. This has to be an element. If Akainu doesn't have this one, then I'm seriously sending Oda a letter. He's already kept color and element with two of them. Why not stick it out for the third? Plus his would be even more powerful than Aces ever was. Although, it seems like Oda is spreading a whooole lot of time between each admiral showing up. So good luck on us seeing him fighting at full potential any time soon.

A woman logia. The filler girl doesn't count. She was crap. I girl who can turn into something useful would be awesome.

[Splash!]

Metal. We need to have someone who can turn into metal. I mean come on who doesn't want a person to be like T-1000 from terminator 2? Everyone wants to see that.

Wood. This is kind of stupid, but I can see it being possible. Doesn't seem very strong though.

Diamond. Damn near just mean I know, but that'd be just bad ass. Good luck beating this guy.

Metal, wood and diamond could just as easily be paramecia abilities as well. It all depends on how Oda decides to use them. A DF user that can convert both himself and his surroundings to metal (using it like Aokiji does ice) would be a logia user. However, someone who just hardens their body into a metal would be a paramecia, much like Luffy.

Edit to below: So Mr. 1 had the steel fruit. I thought it was just a sword sword fruit. You never know with the parameicia abilities. They can range from very specific objects to general materials like rubber. That probably means we won't be seeing a metal fruit.

[rockmanj]

Didn't Zorro fight a guy like that, when they were fighting all those Baroque works agents? I believe he was mr.1 or something. He had the ability to turn his body to steel. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Supa_Supa_no_Mi as you can see, its a paramecia, as Splash! stated

[docdan63]

Metal, wood and diamond could just as easily be paramecia abilities as well. It all depends on how Oda decides to use them. A DF user that can convert both himself and his surroundings to metal (using it like Aokiji does with ice) would be a logia user. However, someone who just hardens their body into a metal would be a paramecia, much like Luffy.

Well, I was saying that they too can turn into the element when I was talking about wood and diamond. Yeah Mr 1 had the metal fruit, but it wasn't just metal, he could turn his body into blades, for me that isn't metal. I'm talking about some T-1000 terminator shit going on. Wood will be just boring. I wouldn't want to see it. And I honestly think Oda won't waste his time on it.

And about diamond being a paramecia or other thing in that they couldn't turn into, or let pass through them. Just in case everyone was wondering about the lava lava fruit, that big Don Achino that Luffy fought in the lava lake, couldn't turn into it. He could just heat himself up to a very high temperature. So I was saying that if Akainu got blasted in the chest or head, like Ace or Aokiji, he'd just re grow that body part from lava. And if the rule is to convert himself and his surroundings into what he has, then how do you explain Kizaru? Just making everything shiny and bright? Or what about Blackbeards. Would he just put darkness on stuff? Come on now. I'll give you Aces burning everything and Aokiji freezing things, but some of them are just a stretch. I think the true definition of someone being a logia is not being to die by conventional means. Letting obnjects pass through them and having the ability to exert put out a certain element of some kind from their body.

[Splash!]

And if the rule is to convert himself and his surroundings into what he has, then how do you explain Kizaru? Just making everything shiny and bright? Or what about Blackbeards. Would he just put darkness on stuff? Come on now. I'll give you Aces burning everything and Aokiji freezing things, but some of them are just a stretch. I think the true definition of someone being a logia is not being to die by conventional means. Letting objects pass through them and having the ability to exert put out a certain element of some kind from their body.

I never said that converting their surroundings to their element is how a logia user is defined. I was pointing out that any solid based logia element like wood, metal or diamond would have to be very similar to Aokiji's ability (the only solid based logia user we know of).

Also, I am hesitant on using your definition of a logia because Aokiji doesnt technically let objects pass 'through' him because his element is solid. Yes, as ice, he can be shattered and can reform himself but thats not the same.

I would define a logia ability based on these 3 points:
1. Immunity to damage from physical attacks.
2. Ability to convert their body into an element.
3. Ability to both emit and manipulate their element in their surrounding environment.

Blackbeard is very unique however, and doesnt fall under points 1 and 2. In fact, I would say that Blackbeard is not immune from physical attacks BECAUSE he cannot convert his own body into his element. So really, the only condition that encompasses ALL of the logia users we have seen so far is the 3rd one.

[docdan63]

I never said that converting their surroundings to their element is how a logia user is defined. I was pointing out that any solid based logia element like wood, metal or diamond would have to be very similar to Aokiji's ability (the only solid based logia user we know of).

Also, I am hesitant on using your definition of a logia because Aokiji doesnt technically let objects pass 'through' him because his element is solid. Yes, as ice, he can be shattered and can reform himself but thats not the same.

I would define a logia ability based on these 3 points:
1. Immunity to damage from physical attacks.
2. Ability to convert their body into an element.
3. Ability to both emit and manipulate their element in their surrounding environment.

Blackbeard is very unique however, and doesnt fall under points 1 and 2. In fact, I would say that Blackbeard is not immune from physical attacks BECAUSE he cannot convert his own body into his element. So really, the only condition that encompasses ALL of the logia users we have seen so far is the 3rd one.

Ah ok. Well then I misunderstood what you meant. And I think Aokiji can let objects pass thorugh him if hit in the right area. If a bullet went through his chest, he would crackle, and then reform. Blackbeard can turn into his element just like everyone else, but (and I think this is true, because it's been stated during his fight with Ace) he can't let objects pass through him because he isn't a loga in the general sense. The only thing is, it sucks in all of the attacks and doesn't let them go. Other than that, he himself can turn into darkness just like Aokiji can turn into ice and Ace into fire. I'll agree with all of your points if you agree with me on this one.

Which makes me wonder. I'm beginning to think that Vegapunk had something to do with the fruits. It seems like the world government is able to control the fruit types.

Heres what I mean
If blackbeard is the only logia member who can't let object pass through him, but has the most powerful fruit over all by measure of what he can do with it, it seems to me that vegapunk had something to do with it's planning in the grand scheme of the pirate world. And it came back to him becoming a shichibukai as result. I'm not saying that the government planned for him to become one by creating the fruit. That would be conspiracy level stuff. And it's impossible. He killed the 4th commander and thats how that went down. But, lets think about this. If he has the poewr to crush, destroy, and most of all suck DF powers from people, then I think Vegapunk had his hand in creating the fruit's idea. And, think about it, he's also the only one who can't turn into it. It's a catch 22 he has. He gets more power than almost any other fruit user, but comes at a cost of not being able to stand there and reform by letting objects pass through you. That sounds a bit like someone had they're hand messing with it. And I think that it's Vegapunk using his 500 IQ to do it.

[Splash!]

Blackbeard can turn into his element just like everyone else, but (and I think this is true, because it's been stated during his fight with Ace) he can't let objects pass through him because he is a logia. The only thing is, it sucks in all of the attacks and doesn't let them go. Other than that, he himself can turn into darkness just like Aokiji can turn into ice and Ace into fire. I'll agree with all of your points if you agree with me on this one.

Yeah, I stand corrected. Only Condition 1 doesn't apply to him. Looking over the chapters again, Blackbeard IS darkness. I was trying to explain his physical vulnerability, forgetting that there was already an explanation for it (him being a center of gravity).