Naruto vs. Sasuke

[Archangel]

I wasn't sure how to name this thread since the name can't contain spoilers. No this isn't a who would win if they fought thread, it's a move vs. move thread, more precisely:

Rasenshuriken


VS.

Kirin

They both seem to have amazing destructive power. While i'd say Rasenshuriken seems to be the deadlier of the 2 ( i just can't see anything surviving after getting hit by that ) it doesn't have such a big area of effect as Kirin does which makes it alot easier to hit your opponent. Then again it does require the use of outside forces and we all know how unpredictable the weather can be

Finally i'd say Kirin is the superior jutsu not because of it's power but simply because it doesn't have any of the nasty side effects that come from the Rasenshuriken, but if we're talking of raw power then the prize goes to Naruto's jutsu.

[DB_Hunter]

No contest, Sasuke wins.

[Uchiha Barles]

What's wrong with spoilers in this section of the forums? Anyway, unless Sasuke's technique is at all dodgeable, Sasuke's technique own's Naruto's. However, techniques are situational things. It took Sasuke quite some time and set up to gather the energy necessary to pull that off. It takes Naruto a set up to get off that rasengan, but no time to make it. Not to mention it took a lot of Sasuke's Chakra to even set that technique up. If Sasuke's technique fails for whatever reason, that's the end. If Naruto's fails, as in doesn't hit, he can try again. I really don't see anything surviving a hit from that. So I actually prefer Naruto's technique.

[Abdula]

Nice thread Archangel but how can you say you would give Naruto's pathetic rasengan the edge in power. Naruto's rasengan was meant to counter Sasuke's chidori, its no match for a technique like that.

Just from the pics alone you can tell the difference in raw power, not to mention that a technique like Sasuke's that requires a preset number of conditions before it can even be used, by anime standards, is usually always the most powerful. If its power Sasuke wins, if its based on the opponent's ability to avoid the jutsu, Sasuke wins.

Naruto's rasengan is less powerful but it has the bonus of maneuverability and if he misses he can simply use it again. Sasuke's technique on the other hand is more powerful and has the bonus of being unavoidable, the drawback is that the technique requires a number of conditions before it can even be used and won't work if those conditions aren't met.

Bottom line is, if its those two techniques against each other, Sasuke wins.

What's wrong with spoilers in this section of the forums?

He just means he couldn't put a spoiler in the thread title, so he couldn't name it Kirin vs Rasenshuriken

[Archangel]

Well when i said it was more powerful i meant that i just don't see a way to survive when getting hit by that, it's a zillion mini attacks that go for you at close range while the kirin could be countered with a strong enough barrier (like susanoo's shield).

As for jutsu vs. jutsu, Kirin wins at long range, Rasenshuriken wins at close range ( assuming naruto is good enough to make it connect )

[Death BOO Z]

I had to use Wiki to find out what Kirin was...
being as it uses the energy around us, can it be considered a Sage jutsu?

anyway, I think Kirin is better.
more power, better accuracy, hits more than one..

I don't think it's chackra demands are so great, either. Sasuke can spit as many flame attacks as he wants, and that seems to be enough to get the weather going. and after that, he just needs to tap and direct the lightning to the target, which makes it a good cost-effective jutsu. especially if he uses it in the beginning of the battle and continues to use it throughout the fight (if someone is still left alive).

downside, other than what was said earlier, is that it leaves him vunrable to forms of energy manipulation, a 100% lightning master could "ride" the lightning and "trap" Sasuke with some sort of chackra form manipulation skill. but that's probably not going to happen.

[Abdula]

Well when i said it was more powerful i meant that i just don't see a way to survive when getting hit by that, it's a zillion mini attacks that go for you at close range while the kirin could be countered with a strong enough barrier (like susanoo's shield).

As for jutsu vs. jutsu, Kirin wins at long range, Rasenshuriken wins at close range ( assuming naruto is good enough to make it connect )

Kirin can't be countered, it can be blocked there is a difference. Its an unavoidable technique afterall and are you trying to insinuate that naruto's rasengan wouldn't be stopped by something like Susanoo's shield, not to mention that with Naruto's rasengan you can just get the hell out of the way. What does this long range short range thing have to do with anything if its rasenshuriken against kirin, the two techniques against each other. Besides its been well established in Naruto that long range trumps short range.

[Archangel]

Besides its been well established in Naruto that long range trumps short range.

I still stand by what i said, at close range naruto would win since Sasuke's move affects such a wide area and would kill him too if he was too close to his opponent.

Could the Rasenshuriken defeat Susanoo's shield... i have no idea but i do think it would stand a better chance than Kirin ever did. After all, it attacks on a molecular level.

As for just getting the hell out of the way i already explained that on the first post, we're discussing raw power right now not usability.

As for a direct confrontation of jutsu vs. jutsu, assuming that the Rasenshuriken can connect against the incorporeal Kirin, it should win since it has the elemental advantage but we have no way to know that untill Kishi tells us.

[Abdula]

You misunderstand me, I know what you mean. What I mean is that if its just the two techniques against each other kirin would win, I'm not talkin about a particular battle set up or either fighter using some strategic maneuvering. I thought this thread was about just the two techniques not the fighters that use them or any particular battle situation because if all of that comes into play then the discussion in this thread would be pointless. Someone could say Naruto uses a shadow clone and attacks from behind or Sasuke uses a genjutsu against Naruto and then attacks with kirin it would just go on and on and in a situation like that what it comes down to isn't the superiority of either technique but the abilities of the person using them.

What does attacking on a molecular level have to do with Susanoo, Susanoo is an ethereal being. Thats like saying Naruto's wind rasengan would defeat Minato's shinigami because it attacks on a molecular level, it doesn't make any sense.

If we're discussing raw power and not usability then why are you talking about range?

Kakashi already said it, the elemental advantage only works if the two techniques are the same level. Naruto's wind rasengan would win against chidori because we already saw that rasengan against chidori is a stalemate so adding wind element would give him the advantage. If one technique is overall more powerful than the other, elemental advantages and disadvantages don't matter.

[Archangel]

Well the jutsus are exclusive to their fighters so it's inevitable that the character's strengths and weaknesses also come to play when discussing this,

... yeah no point in discussing this, susanoo is invincible.

I started talking about range because u started talking about jutsu vs. jutsu and like i said unless we know if the Rasenshuriken can connect or not that discussion is pointless.

Yeah, but again you are assuming that Kirin has more power than the Rasenshuriken and i just can't agree with that.

Anyway i'm going to bed, let's continue this another time Abdula.

[Abdula]

Well the jutsus are exclusive to their fighters so it's inevitable that the character's strengths and weaknesses also come to play when discussing this,

... yeah no point in discussing this, susanoo is invincible.

I started talking about range because u started talking about jutsu vs. jutsu and like i said unless we know if the Rasenshuriken can connect or not that discussion is pointless.

Yeah, but again you are assuming that Kirin has more power than the Rasenshuriken and i just can't agree with that.

Anyway i'm going to bed, let's continue this another time Abdula.

1. But you said we are not discussing that. Now it sounds like you're either backing down or changing your mind

2. Okay

3. but that is the entire premise of this thread isn't it, or am I mistaken.

4. Why not, Naruto's wind rasengan isn't so much about power its nature manipulation. They never said they were making his rasengan more powerful the whole point of his training was just to add wind nature to the rasengan.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm with Archangel on this one. One way of telling a jutsu's power in anime is by looking at the reactions of notable people going "omfg hax" when seeing the Jutsu done. The power of Rasengan was felt by the Akatsuki Naruto killed with it, even before it connected. "Oh even I can't get hit by that...that's a jutsu fit for a monster." This is 50% completion. Not to mention the crater it creates after contact. Now recall, the Rasengan is a ball of chakra concentrated to the max, spinning at max speed, and made to retain it's shape through contact with an opponent or object. Add the cutting power of wind element to that, and I can't really imagine a more destructive technique. Hell, the 50% completion, probably has to do with the fact that naruto can only fill 50% of rasengan's capacity to hold wind attribute. (complete conjecture, but it makes sense). I'm pretty sure, that's the type of technique he can use to rip his way right through kirin. So jutsu vs. jutsu, I give it to Wind Rasengan.

[Abdula]

Goddamn time out, my beautiful post gone.

I must say I fully expected Archangel to make such an argument but not you, I'm really disappointed. First off all I really don't care about the opinion of team Asuma or Sakura, Yamato and Sai who had their asses handed to them by Sasuke or the opinion of Kakashi who had his ass handed to him by Itachi. Nor Kakuzu, since news of his death got a chuckle out of Kisame. Secondly Naruto's rasengan didn't kill anybody, it destroyed the cells in Kazuku's body, and some of Naruto's too I might add, and Kakashi killed him. I've said this before and I'll say it again Rasengan doesn't kill.

Now it may sound like I'm being an ass but really its not without reason. When I read your post I did a double take and then I had to get up and go do something else, just to let what you posted sink in.

Anyway on to my point, as for the power of Sasuke's technique, 1 2 3
4

As far as damage goes, before, impact, afterward.

Scaring Zetsu witless and forcing Itachi to use his strongest move, priceless.

I really can't believe that you guys actually think that Sasuke, the person Naruto has been struggling to keep up with since the very beginning of the series, the person whose power Madara desires more than the Kyuubi, the person Itachi gave his life for and the person who gives Kishimoto a massive hard-on, doesn't have a technique more powerful than Naruto's played out rasengan. WOW.

-Btw where did this 50% stuff come from? Naruto wasn't able to use the technique properly during training but just like he did with the original rasengan when it came to the real battle he managed to use it. Atleast that is what I got.

[Uchiha Barles]

Yamato said it was 50% complete when Kakashi asked if Naruto perfected the technique during the Kakuzu fight.

Alright, let me retract everything I said about how to estimate the power of the techniques, save for one thing: the rasengan is a ball of MAXIMUM chakra out, spun at MAX speed, made to STAY and RETAIN it's shape with whatever it comes in contact with. That's what the rasengan is. When a regular rasengan came in contact with a chidori, they canceled each other.The chidori can "cut lightning", so one can imagine it's an extremely powerful piercing technique, and an elemental one at that. Yet, a regular rasengan is just barely canceled by it, at the cost of the chidori itself.

Ok, now, lets add the wind element to the ball with staying power. Concentrated chakra as I described it in the previous paragraph, with the wind element all the good stuff that comes with it. I mean, I'm not even sure how to continue this, it seems that obvious. That ball isn't breaking, specially if it's coming against the element that wind trumps.

About Rasengan not killing people, huh? When Jiraiya pushed a rasengan through a tree trunk, it utterly ate right through it. When people throw knives at a tree trunk, it gets stuck in the trunk, not very deeply might I add. People have been killed by a knife thrown at them, a regular one, but rasengan doesn't kill? More accurately, Rasengan HASN'T killed anyone you've seen, except for that very big one Naruto used to kill fake Itachi.

Now, this here is just absurd, Naruto didn't kill Kakuzu, Kakashi did, all Naruto did with the wind Rasengan was destroy every cell in Kakuzu's body? Lets analyse that for a second. There are quite a few types of cells in the body, lets take a look at a few of them. Muscle cells were destroyed. This means, Kakuzu's diapragm was no longer working. Meaning, he couldn't breathe in and out. Couldn't swallow. His heart stopped pumping blood to any of his organs. Not that it would matter if the did, or if kakuzu could still breathe because Red Blood Cells were destroyed, meaning they're no longer serving their oxygen transporting function. Kakuzu's nerve cells were destroyed. He's not moving ever again, as if he could even they weren't destroyed, considering his muscles cells were destroyed. The systems regulated by nerve impulses would no longer work like, oh say heart beating. Oh, we covered that with muscle cells being destroyed. What about breathing, oh, that too was covered with muscles destroyed. Overkill anyone? Then there are the cells that make up the liver, kidney, and other organs. All kinds of crap would start pouring into his system in places they didn't belong. Bile, adrenaline, glycogen and a whole mess of other stuff, none of which would be where it belongs. All types of system failure and shock would be afllicting this guy. He should've been dead instantaneously. You ought to get the point. Kakuzu was plain old dead. Why did Kishimoto do the stupid move of having to make Kakashi finish him off? Just for the sake of continuing to make Naruto look like a baby. That had NOTHING to do with the wind rasengan not killing. Because clearly, it kills.

[shinta|hikari]

If it is direct opposition, I go with Rasenshuriken. I don't really give a fuck about Rasengan, since it sucks, but we should not forget that the addition of the wind element does not work like 1 damage + 1 damage = 2 damage. It grew exponentially.

Let us also not forget that the rasenshuriken is a technique that even the 4th did not manage to master, so I don't really see Sasuke simply winning this one, despite the elemental disadvantage, just because Naruto is a weak-ass idiot (he is really). It was never about Naruto, but the jutsu in the first place. One can even say that Naruto does not deserve such a skill (nor can he use it properly with his poor taijutsu etc).

And in order to address the issue of "conditions" of the jutsu, it is true that kirin has more of them, but the rasenshuriken destroys the USER at a molecular level. I believe the most powerful techniques in any shounen series are of this (self sacrifice, HxH anyone?) sort.

But, no one can be sure, since Kishi has done more stupid things before to his own story, so just because he idolizes Sasuke, the kirin may just as well pawn rasenshuriken with no explanation other than Sasuke is a genius.

EDIT: If it is an actual fight though, not simply hitting the move against each other, then kirin would probably own rasenshuriken, provided it is Sasuke and Naruto fighting. Rasenshuriken would never hit anyway. I hate that move.

[Abdula]

@Uchiha Barles
Yes and that was before Naruto used it.

Kirin isn't chidori, I agree completely that rasengan his wind rasengan would utterly obliterate chidori but kirin isn't chidori, kirin doesn't even use his chakra, its pure lightning and like Zetsu said the power of that is more than anyone could ever create with chakra and nature manipulation alone, its like what the filler guys tried to do with Raiga only its actually canon and there is a capable ninja using it . Plus based solely on the size of the technique trying hit it with rasengan would be suicide, even if rasengan could connect with it, the lightening bolt is so huge he would still get damaged. Itachi blocked the technique and look at the damage it still caused. Kirin isn't Sasuke's chakra so it isn't anything like chidori he is directing a force of nature that simple and like I said elemental affinities only matter if the techniques are on the same level.

Yes more accurately rasengan hasn't killed anyone and it never will. You know why Kishimoto had Kakashi finish him off because this is Naruto and if Kishi didn't even let Sasuke kill anyone he is never going to let Naruto do it. How can you say the technique kills when someone who took a direct hit from it survived it, and he was still lucid and able to talk after the attack. You can talk about the effects Naruto's jutsu has on people but the point is all of that didn't happen and Kakuzu didn't die, and frankly I find that to be just as ridiculous as you do but thats the way Kishi made it. Oh and since you brought up the effects of Naruto's rasengan, have you ever seen anyone killed by lightning, because I have and I doubt you would want to see what the effects are.

[Archangel]

That makes me think, while chidori is lighting strengthened by chakra, Kirin is pure lightning. Yes it has a massive amount of electricity but it's just that, so if they could create something that could isolate them from that electricity then the move should be worthless.

Argh i hate to think that a dude with a rubber suit wouldn't be hurt by Kirin... someone tell me I'm wrong.

[shinta|hikari]

You know, I just realized something funny. If the naruto wiki description of the kirin is accurate, it is very weak since it is merely lightning energy directed at a target. Heck a car can protect you from that.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_...le_strike.html

EDIT: ah, you beat me to it, and no, a rubber suit won't protect you from that, it is targeted after all.

Oh, and I know this does not actually apply, since physics never do apply in Naruto.

[Abdula]

You people grossly underestimate lightning, in Naruto.

@ Archangel: No worries you are wrong, the attack was the size of a mountain and it destroyed one so even if someone was wearing a rubber suit or in Luffy's case made of rubber, just from the explosion that would result from the lightning hitting the ground would do massive damage.

[shinta|hikari]

Lightning can destroy mountains? Wait, it explodes!? The wiki description must be inaccurate then.

@Abdula - No, you grossly overestimate it, unless you are referring to the exploding lightning in Naruto.