Naruto vs. Sasuke

[Uchiha Barles]

Its Kishi's symbolic battle between Naruto and Sasuke that has been taking place since the beginning of the series, with the two of them trying out-do or at least match each other.
It began with the tranformation jutsu (at the academy), carried on into chakra control (running up the trees), continued to taijutsu (chuunin examine tournament), and now into the development of jutsus.

You can see it clearly when you look at the origins of the techniques.
First, Sasuke learned Chidori from Kakashi. Naruto then 1-up'd Sasuke with the Rasengan. Both were small, but powerful jutsus, which were contained with one hand and more or less a thrusting technique.

Then the time-jump and the next time Naruto encounters Sasuke, he discovers that Sasuke has a new upgrade to the Chidori, the Chidori Nagashi. Naruto responds by upgrading his Rasengan with the Fuuton Rasengan. Both jutsus were bigger and stronger than the originals with more destructive power, and were only accomplished with the introduction of elemental affinities; lightning vs wind.

Now Sasuke has Kirin, while Naruto is beginning his training with the toads. Kirin, fittingly, is accomplished by Sasuke using the nature energy in the air and atmosphere to produce the massive attack. Which sounds an awful lot like the description of the Sage chakra, wouldn't you say? Therefore it's pretty safe to say that whatever Naruto learns from the sage training will be to keep him on par with Sasuke.

This seems almost right, except that Chidori Nagashi is NOT on the same power level as the Wind Rasengan. The counters are as follows: Naruto learns rasengan to counter chidori. Naruto gains wind element to counter Sasuke's lightning element. Now, the particular wind technique he happened to learn first completely obliterates Chidori Nagashi, Chidori, and any lightning technique Sasuke has with the POSSIBLE (and I'm still going with improbable) exception of kirin. Until we saw kirin, there was nothing in Sasuke's arsenal that even came close to the wind rasengan as far as a non bloodline technique is concerned. In other words, chidori nagashi could probably be countered rather easily by a much less destructive wind technique than the wind rasengan.

I'll agree that Naruto's sage techniques are a counter for Sasuke's ability to make use of chakra from his surroundings. Just, not particularly to counter kirin itself. It'd be a bit overkill just for that.

[Abdula]

Yes it would be overkill but like Assertn said Sasuke's fire techniques should balance things out then there is Naruto's ridiculous philosophy.

?

Sasuke is getting the 8 tails for akatsuki not for himself, at least that's what i think.

I guess he could screw them over but it's unlikely since he needs their power if he wants to attack konoha

Uh Sasuke is getting the eight tails for himself. Onemanga as usual has a bad trans but in another he explicitly says he will give the eight tails to Sasuke and keep the nine for himself.

[Archangel]

Well that's weird... don't they need all of the beasts for their ultimate jutsu?

I wonder if Pain knows about this deal ...

[Abdula]

No they don't whatever it is Madara wants to do he only needs the Kyuubi and little Sasuke.

This doesn't interfere with Pains plan either.If Madara and Sasuke take the nine and eight tails, Pain still has the other seven to use. Besides we still don't know for sure what their goals are.

[The Heretic Azazel]

In that respect, I wonder if we're just supposed to forget that Akatsuki's original goal was to unleash the beasts upon all the countries, and charge their people a shitload of money to contain them.

[Abdula]

Thats my point, if that is Pain's goal "to create a monopoly on war" I believe that is how he phrased it, then he will easily be able to do that using the other seven beasts. The seven Akatsuki already have. Its interesting that Pain's goal is to turn the world back to the way it was before Hashirama founded the leaf village, because back then it was the Senju who basically had a monopoly on war.

[Archangel]

Even so, by the looks of things Tobi is gonna screw Sasuke out of the 8 tails and is getting ready to receive the kyuubi anytime soon

I can't wait untill we get to see both of these techniques again, we need more information on them if we want to continue the discussion.

[Death BOO Z]

we really need to get the akatsuki thing sorted out.. mainly, we need to know the connection of Payne and Madare (tobi\obito\mizukage, whatever name you like), we also need to see whether Zetsu is working for Payne or for Madare, but that's not as important...

[rant about akatsuki]
all the dead ones (plus kisama, minus Itachi) were grunts, they didn't know what they were working for, and merely followed orders (I could complain that we should have seen a backstory for why such fugitive ninjas were working for someone else, but that's beating a dead horse). Itachi probably had suspicions about Madare's plans, but he didn't know all of them, and I don't think he knew much about Payne's plans (he was paired with Kisame, after all).

Orochimaru is a wild card, I find it hard to believe that he knew about Itachi, but not about Madare, though, it's possible that madare had Itachi expel Orochimaru in order to keep their dirty secret safe, and If Payne did beat Salamander, I think that Orochimaru knew about it...
Kabuto also might hold some answers, he was supposedly a spy for Sasori (while being a spy for orochimaru inside the village), but that would imply a prior connection with Sasori (the rest of his spies were sand ninjas), and that might mean he was 'given' to Sasori by another member. So basically, Kabutoro might know something.

key question is what's going on between Madare and Payne.
Payne is recognized as the leader by the grunts, but he seems to be getting orders by Madare, which doesn't fit with his personality. so it's either that he believes in the filthy Uchiha's goals, or that he tries to manipulate Madare into doing something for him (which will of course not work, since madare is a betraying uchiha).

on to the bijuus....
- Madare said he'll give Sasuke a bijuu.
- until now, all the bijuus who have been extracted were taken into the stone statue.

at first, we had nine akatsuki, and nine bijuus, so we thought the akatsuki are just power hungry and want to take a bijuu and double their strength..., we still have nine akatsuki, but now, the plan seems to be failing a bit (the newcomer gets the 2nd strongest demon? what kind of loot dividing is this?), also, the rest of the hawk team don't look much like akatsuki material (not that Sasuke is, but still).
more than that, if they don't care who gets which beast, it means that the past few years were a waste of time for everybody involved, if payne\madare just wanted to power themselves up with a bijuu, then gathering them all would be pretty tiresome opposed to simply grabbing the beast you want and taking it by force. why bother all the buildup?

[/rants about crap, for now]

we need to see more of the akatsuki, let naruto train off-screen for a while, and show us some evil cult plotting

[6Zabuza9]

u realize if sasuke gets the eight tailed beast. the fight between sasuke and naruto will be a cursed seal super sharingan using half bull/octopus with lightning chakra surrounding its whole body vs a kyuubi that looks like a frog. Seems like sasuke has more buffs than naruto

[Marik]

u realize if sasuke gets the eight tailed beast. the fight between sasuke and naruto will be a cursed seal super sharingan using half bull/octopus with lightning chakra surrounding its whole body vs a kyuubi that looks like a frog. Seems like sasuke has more buffs than naruto

To me Naruto will have more buffs. He already has the power that Itachi gave to him, along with his new sage training, his wind beats lightning, and Ibiki has his key. The key to his father's warehouse that contains the other half of his Kyuubi chakra and a jutsu that he wanted his son to complete.

Sasuke is already starting to go blind and has chosen not to take the Eight-tails chakra. So other than Tsukuyomi and Susano to go along his Amaterasu, I don't think we'll be seeing aything from him that Itachi hadn't shown us already. A Naruto with both Ying and Yang vs a Sasuke thats going blind, Naruto will be the victor.

[Uchiha Barles]

Sasuke's "Buffs"

Fire element techniques, lightning element techniques, some unnamed elemental recomposition type, mangekyou sharingan (try not to forget all the powers that comes with, including predicting body motion, some ill-defined skill that was able to extinguish amaterasu, and controlling the kyuubi), techniques using chakra from his surroundings (be they sage techniques or something else), and now possibly the eight tails, which he chose not to take BEFORE he found out he was going blind. He might change his mind about that.

Naruto's "Buff's"

Wind elemental techniques, Sage techniques, Itachi's yet unnamed, undemonstrated power, and the ninetails.

I'm not counting the other buff's you mentioned because I doubt that Naruto is going to get them before he faces off with Sasuke. Right now, it seems that Sasuke has the upper hand in buffs. Even if he chooses not to use the eight tails, his Sharingan has proven to be able to handle bijuu, by "dispelling" the kyuubi inside Naruto, and defeating the 8 tails. He may be going blind by using the skill, but I doubt it's going to actually affect his fight with Naruto to a tide turning degree.

To be fair, we've no clue what power Itachi gave Naruto, and also, the Sage training probably comes with a shitload of abilities. So comparing the two, I say Sasuke looks like he has more power ups because we know more specifically what his powers are. Naruto's powerups, well, we just don't know specifically what they are when it comes to sage training and Itachi's power. I have a feeling Kishimoto doesn't know either, or at least didn't know when he decided to give him Itachi's power, and start the Sage training. He's probably going to manipulate things so that they're basically evenly matched

*snore*

[Marik]

Eh, I don't see Sasuke being that strong in a 1 on1 fight. Killerbee pretty much dismantled Sasuke. If he hadn't sucked on Karin and got cursed seal healing from Juugo, then he wouldn't have even able to get off that Amaterasu. I think Naruto will get his key before he fights Sasuke, most likely after he fights Pain. Sasuke has to deal with the Cloud Trio and whatever the Kages plan before he gets to Konoha. During that time Naruto should get his key.

[Abdula]

He is going to be fighting Naruto and its not like Naruto has a great track record in one on one fights especially against Sasuke. Sasuke on the other hand has a great record in one on one fights and Uchihas are built for one on one combat.

[Uchiha Barles]

I see this series ending with Naruto killing Pein (after his true badassedness is revealed) and Sasuke killing Madara. All this AFTER Sasuke fight's Naruto. Of course Sasuke won't come back to the leaf. He might die, or he might go off into the sunset, maybe start up a new village. The set up of things just seem to be working out nicely for Madara and Pein to be the same "level" of villain. This is as much speculation as you mentioned though, so yeah..eh.

[Abdula]

I like the idea but I really don't see them being the same level. That is not something Kishi does, his villains all have to one up each other. As far as I see it now Pein is on a higher level than Madara, of course Kishi can easily change that but either way its going to be Pein or Madara as the final big bad guy and Kabutoro has to come in somewhere before them.

[Death BOO Z]

I hate sounding like a broken record.

Naruto has no freakin' chance to win against Sasuke right now, and if he did, it would be completely against the backbone of the story.

Naruto winning the final fight through the powers of unknown gifts from strangers? well, excuse me if I think that makes for a shitty story-telling.

Naruto, so far, has only KB and Rasengan to call as respectfully gained abilities, Kyuubi is either too maverick to control, or too weak to make a difference. Sage techniques weren't revealed yet, and he didn't even work hard to get them (he had the nerve to suggest taking the oil with him, so he wouldn't need to master the skill to use it). Itachi's gift and whatever 'light key' the frog is holding are gifts from someone else.
Sasuke, master of taijutsu, chidori, fire jutsu (tons of jutsus he got from Orochimaru, after defeating him in his own court), Sharingan (maybe even forms of super sharingan), and perhaps the 8-tails (he beat the previous host, so he earned it).

the fight will go something like this:
Sasuke: I've gave up on everything I held dear to, I've come to peace with the history of my family, with my brother and with my desire for revenge, I've been to depths of hell and arisen back.
Naruto: That's pretty cool, I've been wasting time in the village, never embarking away on my own, but a lot of people granted me magical powers that activate despite my will. Sasuke: so basically, you got a shitload of HP, and triggered control attacks from people who created them in order for you to kill me? that's kinda cheating, isn't it?
Naruto: yes, it's like everything I've done in the story is moot, since I'll fight you with tools I was practically given by others.

^I'll be back to that in a minute^

Madare is a much bigger villain than Payne. he's older, more sinister, has the most awesome bloodline in the universe (as far as we know, Sharingan is better than Rinngan. and it'll take a lot of creative thinking to get me believe otherwise), and acts like the boss of payne. plus, Payne's weakness (secret) is known to the good guys, but when Itachi used his last breath to attack Madare through Sasuke, Madare brushed it off and said he has more secrets.
Payne, on the other hand, was already 1/6th killed. and seems to be in constant need of medical attention from the freezetubes.

Madare is a much bigger villain.

*back to Naruto and Sasuke*
Sasuke, as said by others, has much more known and influencal buffs. a better track record of 'clean winnings' and all around victories and generally more deserves to win.

like I've said in almost every other 'Naruto is stupid' topic, we need Sasuke out of the story for a few months, and Naruto needs to get a clean, fair training arc, and not just two pages in the background of something bigger happening. not to mention Naruto needs to score a victory against someone who matters, the last time he won was against Kazuko. and that's with 5 friends ganging up, and Kakashi still did most of the work. pathetic.

[Naruto_RNG]

No they don't whatever it is Madara wants to do he only needs the Kyuubi and little Sasuke.

This doesn't interfere with Pains plan either.If Madara and Sasuke take the nine and eight tails, Pain still has the other seven to use. Besides we still don't know for sure what their goals are.

Where did u get that from? dude now you are making up stuff. peins goal is to get all bijus not just up till 7. If that was true then why would he go after naruto, and why would he seal each bijus from lowest to highest?

We don't know for sure wut madara's goals are. Big difference.

Oh btw the only reason madara needs sasuke is because of his eyes, inorder to get control over wut he lost before kyuubi. not the other way around.

[Abdula]

Way to respond to a two month old post dude.

^I'll be back to that in a minute^

Madare is a much bigger villain than Payne. he's older, more sinister, has the most awesome bloodline in the universe (as far as we know, Sharingan is better than Rinngan. and it'll take a lot of creative thinking to get me believe otherwise), and acts like the boss of payne. plus, Payne's weakness (secret) is known to the good guys, but when Itachi used his last breath to attack Madare through Sasuke, Madare brushed it off and said he has more secrets.
Payne, on the other hand, was already 1/6th killed. and seems to be in constant need of medical attention from the freezetubes.

Madare is a much bigger villain.

I'm not buying that at all. First off all we know zip about the Rinnegan so there is no point in trying to compare them. As for Madara he can act like the boss all he wants it doesn't make on damn bit of difference to me until I actually see something from him. Yeah he is older but I wouldn't say he is more sinister because that set up Pein had was just awesome. Killing the man who beat all three of the sannins and not only killing him but his friends, family members and associates as well. That was unbelievable and him being thought of as a god and even the people in his own village not knowing whether he actually exists or not. You could not have a better set up than that for a villain even Orochimaru didn't have it that good. The fact that Kishi ruined all of that and made Pein into some emo douchebag doesn't change my opinion of him, at least not yet. I don't even know why Kishi chose to do that anyway, you would think he got his fill of that with Sasuke.

Madara just came out of nowhere, actually I know exactly where he came from, out of Kishi's ass.

Secondly you talk of Pein's weakness being exposed and frankly we just don't know that, yeah they are eventually going to figure out that the real one isn't there but I don't see how that is going to help them. Its not as if the bodies are all going to all drop dead as soon as some says the real one isn't there and the joke about the tubes doesn't matter because the real one isn't there.

Anyway the real reason I can't buy into Madara is rather simple, he has yet to impress me. Yeah he is supposed to be some big shot ninja but he was always second to Hashirama. He killed his brother and took his eyes to get EMS and even with EMS and the freaking Kyuubi, he still lost to Hashirama. Fast forward, he uses the Kyuubi to attack Konona and again his plans fail because of another Hokage.

Then we get to the most unbelievable part, mister bigshot's plans were put on hold because of Itachi. Yeah thats right Itachi, this guy had to put all his plans on hold just because some broken little Uchiha said so, and he didn't even have what it takes to get Itachi out of the way himself. He had to wait until Itachi, who was dying of some unnamed illness which I'm guessing is TB, died fighting his little brother before he could even think about attacking Konoha again. I should also mention that even with Itachi gone he still doesn't seem like he plans on attacking Konoha himself. he is sending in Pein and then Sasuke is going to make his move.

That gets me to this, if Madara is so powerful why not just collect the bijuu himself why the hell does he need Akatsuki to do the work for him. Why have we seen no offense at all from him, all we've seen is him using his time/space jutsu to protect himself. Anyway this post is getting long so I'll stop now but really I can't get behind a guy who is famous for being second best and whose plans all seem to end in failure, not to mention that we haven't actually seen him fight yet, at least we can say we saw something from Pein.

[Archangel]

I see this series ending with Naruto killing Pein (after his true badassedness is revealed) and Sasuke killing Madara. All this AFTER Sasuke fight's Naruto.

Call me old fashioned but i always like it when the final fight is between the hero and his nemesis.

[Naruto_RNG]

@Abdula
Didn't c the date, but I think all of us knew even 2 months ago wut pein's plan were.

Oh I forgot to post which one would win, I'll say FRS. If kakashi can cut through lightning with chidori, I don't c why wind element rasengan can't.