He's not a hero. He's an impressionable dumbass who killed off his entire clan to quell a POSSIBLE uprising.
What a retard. Seriously.
Also, the Third Hokage sucks now, he has no power and he's more of a puppet figure-head. How can he get overruled and be pushed around by root?
The uprising wasn't "possible". The preparations were definite. That's like some country getting their soldiers ready, their jet fighters fueled up, their battleships positioned in range of enemy territory, and then deciding to say "eh, fuck it, lets go home." Not happening. The uprising would've more been civil war, and other countries would've came in and ruined the hell out of konoha and the fire country. So no, he avoided something that DEFINITELY was going to happen. I'm with you on the third though, sometimes being too soft lets shit like this happen.
And he definitely wasn't a retard or an impressionable dumbass. He was well aware of what he was doing and he was informing on both Konoha and the Uchiha clan and could have gone along with either side. As double agents usually do Itachi ended up having more information and a better perspective on things than either side did, that Madara was still alive and in the village is a good example. Itachi was pivotal during that time and I would think that whichever side he chose would have won, he just ended up choosing the path of least bloodsehd. Like Madara said the guy did all these horrible things and in the end he still got what he wanted and he died with a smile on his face, compare that to how Jiraiya died.
Just to clarify there was no root at that time. What they said was that Danzou was the leader of the Anbu so he had as much power as the hokage's currently have. Root was created sometime afterward. Lastly I don't think anything is wrong with the third but the guy's hands were completely tied. There was absolutely nothing he could do. If it is as Madara said and there was systemic hate towards and suspicion about the Uchiha's that spanned generations there was nothing he would be able to do to change peoples minds about the Uchihas. Besides that he wasn't in control of the Anbu, Danzou was, and I suppose the third and the elders together would have been able to stop Danzou but the elders sided with Danzou so there was no hope of doing that.
Then there is the fact that they knew the Uchihas were going to revolt and like Madara said as powerful as the leaf was there was nothing they would have been able to do about an army of sharingans. I mean can you imagine that. So if the leaf didn't strike first, the Uchihas would've and then the leaf would have been wiped out.
As for the kage position being more of a puppet-figure head thats what I thought when I saw how things worked when the elders and Danzou confronted Tsunade. Just look at what they did with Gaara. As powerful as the third was he was only one man and if the elders and Danzou decided they were going to remove him I highly doubt there was anything he could have done about it. Thats how politics works.
Last edited by Abdula; Sun, 06-01-2008 at 09:39 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Haha yeah....I wonder if this title is obvious enough to arouse suspicioun from the anime-only viewers?
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Yeah...I was afraid of that also so I'm changing the title.
This fantastic Sousuke sig was made by the one and only Lucifus! Thanks man!
What are our opinion about Itachi? Huh...
I have posted a lot of my opinion about Itachi somewhere in this forum. Anyway, I think he is genius and kind. Too bad he has to betray his own ppl for the sake of his beloved brother sasuke and the village konoha. the worst is that he has tried every single way to make sure sasuke doesn't live in the way sasuke will regret someday but now in chapter 402 (spoiler; beware), sasuke has turned his brother wish down. Itachi hopes his death may make Sasuke a hero but now it seems to be opposite.
Last edited by johntmh; Sun, 06-01-2008 at 01:37 PM.
Itachi was a genius in all senses of the word, whereas Sasuke pretty much sucks in working things out but is highly capable in fighting terms.
It seems then we never got see Itachi fight at full throttle, which was a real shame. For me now I would have to revisit the debate of Itachi Vs Jiraiya. Jiraiya was clearly out to kill Itachi whereas we know now that Itachi was always holding back.
Yeah seriously, the guys was practically blind, dying from some mysterious illness, coughing up blood and bleeding from his eyes and holding back his power so that he wouldn't kill Sasuke and yet he still seemed to be so incredibly strong. I really wish we could have seen what it was like when he wasn't dealing with all of that, like that night he and Madara eliminated the clan for example. That must have been brutal.
I think Jiraiya would have suffered an utter defeat at the hands of Itachi not to mention that Kisame was with Itachi at the time and we still don't know what Kisame can do. Jiraiya was seriously underestimating them and I think he was really really lucky Itachi didn't want to fight.
I think Sasuke is a product of Konoha in that it appears they didn't like their ninjas to be able to think on their own but rather simply follow orders and do what they're told so Sasuke doesn't have the ability to understand things on his own without someone explaining it to them. It seems like only Shikamaru and Neji have that ability.
@ johntmh. I don't really want to respond to you because its like talking to a bot. Are you sure you aren't a bot?
Anyway we don't know what Itachi's intentions were for Sasuke beyond this point but I think as is Sasuke's nature he will eventually turn on Madara just like he has turned on everyone else and I think Itachi is counting on that. Itachi couldn't get to Madara and he knew Madara wanted Sasuke so he gave Sasuke the power to eliminate Madara when the time comes. We'll just have to see how things play out.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
@Abdula
I am so surprise to know that I have been regarded as a bot to you. Worry not, I am not a bot,. I am just a fan of naruto like you guy. If you still doubt me, then I am not sure how to explain it further except you visit my personal blog, don't worry it's not the naruto blog but my own personal diary. The link is http://johnting.blogspot.com just in case you really want to confirm it.
You know, I don't really think the position of Hokage is that of a figure head only. No way. Sure there may be elders and what not, but you know what? If Danzo had been Hokage, and the third an advisor, Danzo probably still would've gotten his way. Wanting peace is great, but you need balls, not just in combat, but also when it comes to personality and ideology confrontation. So long as you didn't attack him, the third seemed like someone you could beat almost all the time when it comes to politics. The third killed Itachi and the Uchiha.
Well then tell me what he could've done? The village was on the brink of civil war and neither side wanted to listen to him so what could he have done. Its seems to me like back then the village was simply a collection of self governing clans so the Kage was really just a figure head. I mean if he didn't even have control of the anbu then what power did he have?.
I think you saying Danzo would have gotten his way if their roles were reversed is kinda silly. How would that even work since Danzo is the militaristic one and the one who ordered Itachi to do what he did in the first place. Besides I think your missing the point of exactly why the third was powerless even if he could've gotten Danzo and the others not to do what they did, both himself and the elders knew there would be nothing he could do to stop the Uchihas and that was the problem. I'm sure Danzo and the others weren't eager to have a massacre in the village but really what choice did they have. It has nothing to do with whether the third had balls or not and it wasn't about stopping Danzo and the elders it was about stopping the Uchihas..I think you're missing that. Madara said the third tried to forge a truce with the Uchihas but he failed. So its not like the third was trying to stop Danzo and the elders what he was trying to do was stop the Uchihas because that would have been the only way to prevent the bloodshed.
Itachi only did this because he saw the effects of war and was willing to do anything to stop another war from happening. The third and the others went through the war so I'm sure above all else the third let this happen for the same reason Itachi did it in the first place because it was the only way to prevent a war.
- I just posted this in the 402 thread and I figured I should put it here as well since it may be relevant to this discussion and it would be another reason why the third would have been unable to do anything if indeed it was Madara that was pulling the strings and setting things in motion.
Originally Posted by Abdula
Last edited by Abdula; Mon, 06-02-2008 at 11:02 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
I don't think it would have been as drastic a victory for the Uchiha's as you're making it out. If an army of pissed off Uchiha's was truly unstoppable then Konoha wouldn't exist as the Senju would have been steamrolled just like you're saying the Uchiha would have steamrolled Konoha. The Senju were able to consistently fight the Uchiha to a stalemate with both sides losing people in the process.
I would find it hard to believe the clan and all of its talents simply vanished after Konoha was founded, especially since Senju doesn't seem to have been a based around a particular bloodline limit but around training, ideology, and general techniques that anyone can be taught. Not accounting for the effects of an initial tactical surprise attack if the Uchiha descendants had put up a fight then the Senju descendants should have had a fair chance at at least holding them to another stalemate, especially considering the Uchiha descendants were supposedly in a weaker position than the Senju.
That said, even if it wasn't a sure defeat for konoha a civil war would have been a pretty bad occurance in terms of public perception as well as number of lives potentially lost. For Konoha nipping the problem in the bud was the logical thing to do. A ninja is of little use to the village if they don't view the village as more important than their own pride and I think the same goes for a clan. Itachi made a choice to protect stability at the expense of his clans pride, even though it meant killing his clan. I think that's a lot more respectable than his alternative, allowing/aiding his clan in waging war on the entire village simply because they weren't in charge and were forced(?) to live together.
Last edited by Yukimura; Mon, 06-02-2008 at 05:37 PM.
I think you're oversimplifying things Yuki and you're not seeing things from the Uchihas point of view. The Uchiha didn't want a war anymore than Konoha did they wanted to take control of the village and the best way to do that was a swift and efficient coup which is exactly what they were going to do. They didn't want to be in an open conflict with Konoha which is why they didn't take any actions earlier and why they were planning things for so long because not only would that attract unwanted attention from outside forces but a long drawn out conflict would have severely decreased their chances of winning and it would surely have caused severe damage to the village. The Uchihas weren't planning to start a war they were planning a coup and they were in the perfect position to succeed.
As far as the Uchiha were concerned Itachi was on their side so all they had to do was wait for a time when some of Konoha's strongest ninjas like Kakashi, Gai etc were occupied with missions and/or out of the village which seemed to happen often enough and have Itachi assassinate the third, Danzou and the two elders like how they had him eliminate the Uchihas. Fugaku made Itachi join the anbu for a reason and I would think that would have been one of the main reasons not just to provide them with information. All Itachi had to do was take out the elders which I'm sure he was capable of or simply provide an opportunity for a few Uchihas to slip in and accomplish the task.
Once the elders were out of the way there would have been no one to oppose the Uchihas. The majority of the remaining ninjas would have cooperated with the Uchihas even if it wasn't voluntarily and those who didn't simply had to be taken out or exiled from the village. This could have all been done in a single night. Take out the village elders and station some Uchihas at strategic points throughout the village and make sure to put some strong sentries at the gate. The majority of people in the village would have thought nothing of the Uchihas moving around because only the top brass was aware of the situation and the Uchihas were the village's police force after all. Plus as we saw back when Oro attacked the village the majority of people living in the village, unlike in the Sand village, are regular civilians and as we saw then too, a few ninjas in strategic positions in the village could drive back almost any force. With the Uchihas being well the Uchihas, and already being a centralized force in the village, the police force no less and having already infiltrated the Anbu and who knows what else Fugaku had planned. Remember that city or whatever it was where Sasuke took Hebi before he went after Itachi, who knows what the Uchihas had there.
It wouldn't have been the Uchihas vs the village it was going to be Uchiha vs Senju or more specifically the third, the elders and Danzou because they were the only ones who knew anything. This would have gone alot quicker and smoother than you think but like I said Itachi was the key in all of this, whichever side he chose would have won. I'm pretty sure of that.
Last edited by Abdula; Mon, 06-02-2008 at 10:52 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
While I see how what you say could have been you make too many assumptions for me to be comfortable with your theory being what would have happened. I wouldn't assume the state of readiness the Uchiha's were at before Itachi was ordered to act. We'll also never know what their plan of attack would have been because we don't know exactly how the power structure of the village works beyond the characters that have been introduced.
It's certainly within the realm of possibility but I don't think it makes sense that the Uchiha could rise from being a segregated police clan watched by ANBU and kept out of politics to being in control of the village without generating mistrust among the less informed 2nd tier of political power in the village and also going against the ANBU who had been watching over them for signs of rebellion since the time of the second Hokage.
The people in the 2nd tier would know of the Uchiha's role as a police force, but would have to have noticed that they were never involved in any village politics before and be suspicious about their sudden seizure of control in the aftermath of the death of several village elders. And from the way Itachi was so counted on by his dad it doesn't seem like there was much, if any, penetration of the ANBU by the other Uchiha members. Even with Itachi's help for them to be able to undermine the efforts of the ANBU in trying to stop them without arousing anyone's suspicions that foul play was involved is a bit of a stretch for me to believe.
Since I don't believe a clandestine takeover would have worked based on the political position of the Uchiha before the coup and I no longer view the Uchiha as the warrior gods they were made out to be earlier I can't see them doing anything but causing an open war between at the least themselves and the ANBU. After hearing the self proclaimed strongest Uchiha reference the fact that at their peak they could only match the actions of the Senju and force draws I have cemented my belief that the Uchiha as a whole were not an unbeatable God clan, just extremely competent and blessed with a powerful bloodline trait. Itachi was recognized as a completely broken freak in terms of talent and other than him and his less broken brother the only other measures of Uchiha ability we have are the former leader and possibly strongest ever a kid who completely sucked balls. It's obvious they have a great natural ability and enormous potential but beneath all the lore and such they are still just as mortal as everyone else.
I'm going to preemptively snark now just in case and to save time later.
We are speculating about events in Naruto that will probably never be explained meaning the Abdula Assumptions Are Not Wrong Principle applies. You're right because your basing your analysis on your assumptions which can't be wrong because you made them. The only way an assumption could possibly be 'wrong' would be if it was in contrast to something that was stated in canonical material. However it's been empirically shown enough that in the realm of Naruto the AAANW Principle is stronger than the canon of the Naruto manga that I believe it to be a fundamental law of Naruto.
Because I have posted assumptions different and contrary to yours I am knowingly disagreeing with something that is not wrong. It follows that I am stupid and makes my post worthless because stupid people's posts should never be taken seriously. I fully admit that I am stupid for not agreeing with you Abdula as you are the prophet of Kishimoto and nothing we'll never be told in Naruto could have ever happened in a way that contradicts the way you've hypothesized and I apologize to anyone who wasted their time reading this far as they should have just skipped my post as Abdula has already revealed the truth of the matter as it would have been.
Last edited by Yukimura; Tue, 06-03-2008 at 01:00 AM.
Ouch Yuki you're seriously overreacting. I didn't ever say you were wrong or that I was right and I really don't care. I was actually just interested in discussing the possible ways in which things could have gone. I did have a few other theories I wanted to run by you that were different from that one but you're obviously not interested in discussing anything with me, so never mind.
Last edited by Abdula; Tue, 06-03-2008 at 08:28 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Yeah, I know...sorry. It was late and I couldn't remember the last time you went on one of your "I'm right" tirades so as I was typing I was getting more and more suspicious that I was going to spark one so I just created a response to relieve the tension building up. In reality I'd much rather toss theories around than read dissertations about how anyone's theory must be wrong.
I am curious what you think about the my Itachi-Sasuke bias theory. And I'm curious why you think that taking over the village without making a big fight would be as easy as just killing the old people.
Well I was interested in Coups as a kid particularly because my parents went through two. Anyway what determines whether a coup would be successful or not or whether it would even be the right tactic to use would be the structure of the village not just the physical structure and geography but the overall mentality in the village and the way people act and possibly most importantly how easy it would be to control the way information is spread.
Based on the way things appeared to have been at that point in time and the way in which Kishi presented the village to us I think a coup would have worked perfectly in Konoha. In contrast I would think that attempting a coup in a village like the sand would be and utterly foolish idea.
The political structure of Konoha is what I think would make a coup successful in that the second tier you mentioned didn't exist. Added to that is the fact that the majority of konoha were non-combatants and therefore don't need to be accounted for because not only were they ignorant of everything around them but as the general populace tends to be they would much rather just remain absorbed in their own lives and not have to deal with or think about any political struggles or the potential consequences of those things. Not only that put it has been proven that these people can be easily manipulated given the right information or misinformation, this situation or the situation with Naruto, I think are perfect examples of this. Anyway it would be simple enough to say that those guys are inconsequential.
The next thing would be your average shinobi this would be where the potential problem lies because the actions of these guys would be hard to control and to predict.Naturally I'm sure a small portion of them would willingly accept the Uchihas if only for the sake of self preservation. I can't really say what would happen with this group but I think it would be safe enough to assume that the majority of these guys would unite under one leader or possibly a group of people possibly anbu and attempt to put down the clan. These guys would be the X factor and would be the ones who would really decide the outcome if indeed something were to happen. How they would react would depend on how the next group is dealt with.
Now we get to the root of the matter, the anbu. This is were things get dicey. The other groups would be easy enough to control depending on how the anbu are dealt with but there in lies the problem. The anbu of course would be the most predictable group but would be the most difficult to deal with. Assuming the hokage and the elders are dealt with and that there was no second tier these guys would automatically assume the role and since they were fiercely loyal in the first place would of course intend to strike at the Uchihas. There are many ways this could go but my reasoning would be that after the initial shock passes a group of anbu would immediately launch a counter attack which the Uchihas en mass should be able to repel.
Then by my rationale what the Uchihas would have to do would be to essentially use the first group as hostages and convince the anbu that not attacking is in the best interest of the village and that attacking would carry a costly price. The anbu too would have to consider the fact that even if they did succeed not only would the leaf village be without its leaders (the third, danzou and the elders) but without the Uchiha clan as well and the village of course would be severely damaged leaving it ripe for the plucking.
This theory of mine of course is based on me assuming alot of things I just don't know and even so the Uchihas would have to have a lot of things in place before this coup was even attempted. For example the Uchihas would have to have outside support because regardless of whether they succeeded or not it would have all been for nothing if there wasn't other countries or villages supporting them. This I think is one of the reasons the Uchihas didn't strike before because if it is as Madara said and the Uchihas were subject to the will of the Senju since the very beginning and even more so after the second Kyuubi attack then they would have definitely made a move earlier. As you said Yuki, Uchihas or not, there would be no way the Uchihas would have been able to make a move against the Sengu unless they had outside help.
Another important thing which they would have needed outside help with is controlling the trade and resources going in and out of Konoha for obvious reasons. Anyway that is my wild theory on why I think a coup could've worked. Beyond all the complicated details the simple fact that the village was run by four people and those four purposely withheld information from or misinformed the general public even the ninjas working directly under them would have created enough of an opening for a coup to work.
Last edited by Abdula; Wed, 06-04-2008 at 10:46 AM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Wow you guys talk A LOT! I like Itachi, I can respect his POV and for him to have calculated all of this in advance that is pretty pimp on his part!
assertnfailure (7:40:03 PM): dude....your posts are a bunch of nonsense
I think Itachi deserves his own giant stone statue. He gave everything without asking for anything in return, except for his younger brother's safety.
*For a minute there, I thought I was in an Oprah forum with so much bitching going on*
ho ho ho ho ho ho
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