Rebuild of Evangelion

[shinta|hikari]

While I do believe that Shinji was not at fault, even if he was, who in their right minds would confuse, threaten and piss off the key to humanity's destruction? That was just plain stupid. They had 14 years to sort out their feelings, yet they chose the worst 14 minutes to go on an outburst.

To put it simply, Misato and her crew underestimated Shinji. They did not think he would be able to escape their grasp, so they believed treating him like shit because of their uncontrolled emotions is alright. Yeah, that worked out just fine.

[MFauli]

I´m split on the matter.

On the one hand I can see and agree with the idiocy of all the people bashing Shinji. The arguments are obvious: kid awakes after 14 years, has no idea about what happened or what´s going on. Kid also didn´t intend to harm anybody, had no ill intentions. What do they do? Group-crap on him.

ON the other hand ... he´s like a nuke. It´s not so much hate for Shinji as a person (maybe it is from Misato, who knew him personally), but hate for *what* he is. Everybody remembers the, well, destruction of earth. And here stands the de facto cause of it all. Shinji Ikari. He looks like a human boy, but to those that survived the near-3rd-impact, it´s also the appearance of the worst weapon of mass destruction in mankind history. That´s what explains Suzuhara-imouto´s ill reaction towards Shinji. Afaik they never met before, yet she "hates" him. And it makes sense if you substitute Shinji with a knife, firearm or nuke. Forget about the mastermind behind the attack. Here´s the dangerous tool itself!

[KrayZ33]

it doesn't change the fact that he is the reason why everyone is still alive even 14 years later
the world would have ended without him and survived till now because he decided to pilot EVA.

[Kraco]

Finally watched this, and I guess it was some divination that kept me from watching this for so long because I didn't like what I saw overly much. Pretty much everything wrong has already been said in the long posts.

So, I'll add just one thing: In addition to everybody aboard Wunder hating Shinji, the director and script writer must have hated him even more. The poor guy did exactly two things in the movie: Departed Wunder with Rei and took the spears. It's not much for a main character in a 1.5 hour film...

[RyougaZell]

So I finally managed to watch this and... I was like "WTF?" through all the movie.

Mindfuck. Totally.

Just came to say that. Bye again.

[MFauli]

So ... have their been any quality releases of the final movie already? Kimetsu no Yaiba-thread made me remember. God, it must be a miracle that I haven't run into spoilers yet.

[Ryllharu]

It's still in theaters I believe. It only came out recently.

[Y]

Since the third and fourth movies are going to be shown alongside each other (i.e. basically one feature) it won't be too long until we see the end of this movie series. Maybe 2009.

Yeah good luck with this.

[MFauli]

Just finished watching 3.0+1.0.

I rewatched all previous movies today, too.

What a finale!

It's the perfect final movie imo. Answers a ton of question, creates new mysteries, lots of WTF-moments, but paced in a way that you never feel lost afterwards. And the ending is fantastic, even though I'd say it's kind of an "ending for normies", in that it is too happy.

The animation and music was phenomenal and I can't wait to rewatch it. There were so many scenes that I could have just kept watching, especially the village part at the beginning. Like, GIMME AN ENTIRE SERIES BASED ON THAT! So good.

On one hand, I'm sad that Evangelion is truly finished. On the other hand, Hideaki Anno nailed the end and that is an incredible accomplishment after such a long-running, hyped series.

[shinta|hikari]

Watched it just now.

Good ending to what was a terrible 3rd movie.

The action scenes were sometimes chaotic, which I dislike, but the Mari fight scene at the very end was awesome and was clearly an ode to all the Eva vs Eva fights before it. The Shinji fight was terrible.

I liked the conclusion, and everything was tied up properly, even Asuka's love life lol.

The animation, artistry, and music were all phenomenal, except the Eva with guns battles, which was too "Transformers-like" for my taste.

[MFauli]

Good ending to what was a terrible 3rd movie.

I always liked the 3rd movie, because I understood it for what it was: A transitional movie inbetween bigger events. Like Star Wars episode 2. Ofc, having to wait for years afterwars made it shitty. But I rewatched the movies yesterday and the 3rd one felt perfectly fine.

except the Eva with guns battles, which was too "Transformers-like" for my taste.

Which battle do you mean? The 01 vs 13 battle with the "bad" cgi? That was intentional to look fake.

Anyway, had to write up some more detailed thoughts one my blog, in case anyone wants to read ;>

https://jitsuhane.wordpress.com/2021...rebuild-movie/

[shinta|hikari]

The 3rd movie was shitty because people acted like shits when it clearly wasn't in anyone's best interest just to push the plot forward. It could've been handled better, but instead everyone just abused the kid who knows nothing about what happened for more than a decade.

This movie tried to repair some of that, but movies have to be able to stand alone to an extent, even if part of a series. The 3rd movie did nothing of the sort.

The Shinji battle was the 01 vs 13, and that was horribly choreographed, not just bad CGI.

As for the "Transformers-like" battles, I am referring to when Evas are fighting swarms with guns and everything is just noisy and chaotic. I've never been a fan of that type of "combat" because it is too noisy, hard to understand, and lacks detailed choreography.

[MFauli]

Eh, that "transformers battle" was part of a bigger scene, so I was okay with it.

Btw that brings me to questions I need to research eventually:

- WHO builds all the stuff for NERV? You never see regular people there, only Gendo and Fuyutsuki. Can Gendo just create things with his angel-powers? Or are there regular Joes that just feel strongly for NERV, lol.

- speaking of which: Why can several people now awaken angel-powers? I understand that Gendo got them, being the big villain. But Shinji? And then Asuka, too? Feels like I missed something?

- so who is Kaworu truly? Before this movie, I had always assumed Kaworu was indeed an angel in human-form. Now it's clear that Kaworu actually used to be a human, working together with other people, like Kaji. But at some point, Kaworu became the one for the project that would lead to repeated cycles, with those moon coffins. I don't think it was said who he was, right? A member of NERV? A scientist?

- So Mari was one of Yui's colleagues. Ok. Why is she young in this movie? She didn't just stay young like Asuka, she became younger from the photo. How?

- I understood that Wille has technology to keep the 3rd impact from spreading to certain areas, like the village. But how did Wille revert Paris to pre-destroyed state? Do they have time-manipulating technology?

- Is it known why Toji's little sister works on board of the Wunder? You'd think Toji would do anything to keep his little sister away from the very frontline. What reason does she have? Because her parents were killed in the 3rd impact? Lots of people did then, but they don't go on board of the most dangerous place possible.

- The whole "black moon", that weirdly shaped, giant structure - what was that, why did it appear at the end of the third movie?


That's it for the moment. Maybe you know some of these answers, shinta.

[shinta|hikari]

WHO builds all the stuff for NERV? You never see regular people there, only Gendo and Fuyutsuki. Can Gendo just create things with his angel-powers? Or are there regular Joes that just feel strongly for NERV, lol.

AFAIK Nerv has it's own organization and everything, so there are people who cultishly follow orders from the higher ups.

Why can several people now awaken angel-powers? I understand that Gendo got them, being the big villain. But Shinji? And then Asuka, too? Feels like I missed something?

All the pilots and some of the people who worked with the Eva research can develop these powers. They transform gradually as they use Evas, like Asuka and Makinami, or do shit to their own body like Gendo, I think.

so who is Kaworu truly? Before this movie, I had always assumed Kaworu was indeed an angel in human-form. Now it's clear that Kaworu actually used to be a human, working together with other people, like Kaji. But at some point, Kaworu became the one for the project that would lead to repeated cycles, with those moon coffins. I don't think it was said who he was, right? A member of NERV? A scientist?

Looks like he was Kaji's superior, so definitely a human. But just like Asuka and Makinami, he transformed into an angel at some point.

So Mari was one of Yui's colleagues. Ok. Why is she young in this movie? She didn't just stay young like Asuka, she became younger from the photo. How?

I don't think she became younger. She just wore a sailor uniform.

I understood that Wille has technology to keep the 3rd impact from spreading to certain areas, like the village. But how did Wille revert Paris to pre-destroyed state? Do they have time-manipulating technology?

It didn't revert to pre-destroyed state. The pillars just removed the red aura effect, allowing humans to live there again. Destroyed things are still destroyed.

Is it known why Toji's little sister works on board of the Wunder? You'd think Toji would do anything to keep his little sister away from the very frontline. What reason does she have? Because her parents were killed in the 3rd impact? Lots of people did then, but they don't go on board of the most dangerous place possible.

Probably wants to make a difference after being so helpless and unable to save her parents or anyone else.

The whole "black moon", that weirdly shaped, giant structure - what was that, why did it appear at the end of the third movie?

Anno nonsense lol.

[MFauli]

You're right, I remember from the old tv series that there have been scenes where an angel was about to take over Shinji's EVA (was it the Magi virus angel?) and everyone was shouting "OMG, IF THIS CONTINUES HE'S GONNA BE TAKEN OVER BE THE ANGEL!!!1". So I guess attaining certain angel attributes had always been a possibility.

Btw I only understood after reading online that Asuka was a clone, too, wtf. And apparently that has always been the plan. So Asuka Soryu Langley was the original, and then came Asuka Shikinami Langley, the Shikinami-series. I wonder if the Shikinami-series came after or before the Ayanami-series. You'd think Gendou wanted to experiment on others first before attempting things with his wife's soul. Or did Shikinami happen later as a support tool for his future plans? Hm.

That Kaworu was some sort of superior is obvious, but I still would have liked to see more of him. If everything was an ever repeating cycle, there should have been a point in time that shows Kaworu before he became the 12th angel. Or was the cycle constructed in a way that it begins at a certain point close to the beginning of the series? Hm.

Ah, it feels good to speculate about Evangelion again ^^

[Buffalobiian]

Asuka happened to be inside an Eva-taken-over-by-an-Angel one time, so she's got that going for her (being able to awaken Angel powers). Other than that, you can infer the whole "entry plug is at minus depths, you'll cease to be human at this rate" scenes to give them superhuman powers.

I never understood the bloody spears/lances and shit.

Also.. Yui died while sacrificing herself to be the control system for Eva 1. Gendo should have just not let her do that.

I also don't get how Kaji stopped 3rd Impact. Nagisa threw a lance at Unit 1. That's what stopped 3rd impact.

As for fights, I never liked cannon fodder fights.

[Ryllharu]

First off, this 3.0+1.0 has a ton of inconsistent and weird shit throughout it because it is like a Tarantino movie with a crapload of homages to all of Anno's apparent favorite anime influences.

- The CGI in 01 vs 13 fight looks like shit? It's kind of supposed to. They reveal why that whole scene looks like shit when Shinji's Unit 01 slams into the printed cloth backdrop. It's a reference to Toho Films, of which this is one. It's pretty obviously set up to look like crappy rubber suit monster fights. Including the buildings breaking as if they were cardboard ones but instead bouncing with what I can only guess is purposefully shitty CGI physics.

- Asuka's sort of done dirty throughout the Rebuild series, but then Anno gives her a TTGL referenced combat send off and even a happy end.

- Mari's fight in Paris has got a very Japanese Retro-Future anime vibe to it. She's rotating the controls in a very exaggerated way like how one has to to use naval military hardware. This is bringing in all sorts of late 70s anime like Harlock, Battleship Yamato, and even the newer stuff like LAST EXILE.

- Misato's whole Captain attitude, the design of the Wunder, etc., is all tinted heavy with Harlock, Yamato, Macross, basically every 70s-80s space opera. The bridge configuration and the entirety of the crew is straight up Macross until it gets dragged into its fake LCL plug.

- Mari and Asuka's entry into the Eva legion fight combines both Macross Quarter imagery from Macross Frontier as well as some Diebuster stuff.

- Gendo's altered face? TTGL and the stuff Trigger has also done again.

If there's a problem with Rebuild, it is that the full understanding of it is dependent on the direct parallels it has with the 1996 series and End of Evangelion. It's serviceable as a stand alone, but the real depth of it comes from seeing the alternate path that it deviates from partway in the second film. That itself is referenced twice in 3.0+1.0, with Ayanami-09's three alternate goodbyes, and Kaworu's moon caskets where he's forced to play this role a thousand times so far.

Then again, this timeline doesn't match the rest of the franchise in the first place. Yui's surname is Ikari in the tv series and End of Eva ending. Gendo takes her surname, because, as with his characterization in Rebuild, he doesn't really care for his own family or existence, tying it deeply to Yui's. But in Rebuild, Ikari is his surname, and Yui's maiden name was explicitly stated to be Ayanami. Do both continuities exist? Is this one a true ending because it finally deviates enough from the original timeline to break free of it? Up to the viewer I suppose.


I don't think they really explain Mari enough, but apparently, we're not ever supposed to know. She's deliberately kept a mystery. She's explicitly not a reference to Anno's wife, she's not fully engaged with the characters for much of it, nor ever properly explained. The two people with full knowledge of what role she plays is Anno himself and Sakamoto Maaya so she could portray her. Her purpose is to simply disrupt the franchise, and definitively end it. Was she the woman in the foreground of the photo or not? She's younger than in that photo throughout the movie series, and she's still younger than that at the very end.

Lastly...this whole tetralogy was just dope as fuck.

[MFauli]

Now, what I'd like to know: Repeated cycles, ok. Now, what made this cycle be the one that breaks free from eternal repition? Something must have changed. Or if I assume that people like Kaji, Gendou and Kaworu were in the know of where everything was supposed to go, they slowly prepared something? Making a small change in every repitition that finally saw a result?

I think ultimately, Shinji growing up and facing his father was the key change to the cycle. Whether it's the end of the tv series or End of Evangelion, Shinji never manages to truly overcome this obstacle, thus the next cycle beginning.

- Misato's whole Captain attitude, the design of the Wunder, etc., is all tinted heavy with Harlock, Yamato, Macross, basically every 70s-80s space opera. The bridge configuration and the entirety of the crew is straight up Macross until it gets dragged into its fake LCL plug.

Just to make sure: You've seen "Nadia - The Secret of Blue Water", right? I haven't seen Macross, but the Wunder and Misato's new attire are most certainly homage to Secret of Blue Water, its Nautilus and Captain Nemo. It's uncanny. They even use the Nautilus' theme in the first battle in the 3rd movie.

[Ryllharu]

Now, what I'd like to know: Repeated cycles, ok. Now, what made this cycle be the one that breaks free from eternal repition? Something must have changed. Or if I assume that people like Kaji, Gendou and Kaworu were in the know of where everything was supposed to go, they slowly prepared something? Making a small change in every repitition that finally saw a result?

I think ultimately, Shinji growing up and facing his father was the key change to the cycle. Whether it's the end of the tv series or End of Evangelion, Shinji never manages to truly overcome this obstacle, thus the next cycle beginning.

Interestingly enough, Shinji rejects Instrumentality in every other path we've seen. The main tv series he learns to forgive himself and know that a life with pain in it doesn't mean it's his fault. More importantly he wants to be "me" and to stay "here." He at first rejects a world without Evangelions, but learns that he has value in such worlds.

In End of Eva, he again rejects Instrumentality, along with Asuka. They both accept that a world with pain and misery isn't the worst thing, and manifest again as individuals on the horrible beach. We don't see Asuka's but Shinji comes to the conclusion that Instrumentality creates a fake world where everyone is connected, but in their own way are also isolated because nothing is truly real because everything can be perfect. It's the chance of pain/rejection/sadness that makes the happier times more valuable.

Also, one of the more popular interpretations is that Asuka touches him, and doesn't violently attack him in the ending scene because she has started to grow up a little. Which is interesting in this ending where she grows past him mentally and they correspondingly let their connection to each other fade (leaving room for someone else).

There's really only been two outcomes until now. SEELE wins or Gendo does. Everyone else is a pawn.

The shift this time is first that Rei and Shinji connect enough to awaken Unit 01 early. While that still drives the path down to SEELE's plan (first two endings), it also directs the possible outcomes further down to Gendo's rebellion against SEELE. The second shift is that Asuka pilots Unit 3 and gets infected but survives. That narrows it to Gendo's plan. The final aberration is that Mari exists. She probably usually dies using Unit 05 while helping Kaji steal the Key for Gendo (Gendo steals Adam in both the tv series+End of Eva variant as well as the manga). This allows her to borrow some of Asuka's roles. Her character literally exists to break the cycle and save Shinji in a world where he's destroyed his means to remake the world. She brings him the final Lance, and she's also the one who pulls him back into a reality space.

Just to make sure: You've seen "Nadia - The Secret of Blue Water", right? I haven't seen Macross, but the Wunder and Misato's new attire are most certainly homage to Secret of Blue Water, its Nautilus and Captain Nemo. It's uncanny. They even use the Nautilus' theme in the first battle in the 3rd movie.

That'd make more sense, considering Anno directed that. I have seen it, but it was only once and quite some time ago. I've seen the others more recently.

[MFauli]

Re: Mari
But what did she do different to survive this time, then? Or rather, does she have memory from all the past attempts? That would be an explanation: She kept trying, failed n-times, but this time she made it out alive and continued on. That's also why she's so relaxed about fighting, because she's experienced death too many times to care.

Re: Seele and Gendo plans
So what were each's plans? Seele wants instrumentalization, aka make everyone go goo, then have their souls be collected in the prison of Guuf. That right? And Gendo ... actually wanted to do what Shinji ended up doing (except better), he wanted to attain the power to reshape reality in the way he explained during the movie (no pain, no suffering, and with Yui alive). I must say, that's maybe the one disappointment I have. That Gendou had such trivial goals. Basically a random guy who lost his wife and is sad and angry ... except this guy has the scientific background and financial funding to build giant robots that can end the world, rofl.