Naruto Shippuuden Episode 55

[Abdula]

Well we've seen him in action against oro in the tsunade arc and although he was under the effect of the drug he was fighting a armless oro and he definitely lost that fight. Also while he got his ass kicked by four tail naruto oro did pretty well against him and, in your own words, he was merely playing with naruto abdula. Imo he's definitely the naruto of the group.

I beg you to use your brain, none of them did any good in that battle because they were all inhibited in one way or another, Jiraiya most of all since he couldn't mold his chakra to use any techniques(basically the same thing that happened to Naruto when Oro put the seal on him, and we all saw how Naruto performed against Kiba because of it) and you should have noticed this in Oro's battle with Naruto because even though Oro didn't have his arms back then most of his techniques, including his body transfer technique interestingly enough, don't require hand signs. The only time I remember seeing Oro use hand signs is for various summonings, Manda, Edo Tensei and Rashomon. Other than that the only time I can think of where he used them is when he put the curse seal on Sasuke. Jiraiya is believed to be the strongest of the Sannin while Oro is known as the most talented and fearsome, and Tsunade is the gifted healer.

Plus seeing as you like to call people stupid or retarded I would think that you would atleast think about what you post. Naruto, smacked Oro around, burnt him, smashed him, even cut him in half and Oro got out of all of that because he is immortal(the very reason why he can play around with Naruto) anyone of those injuries would have killed or immobilized any normal person. Just look at the effect coming into contact with the Kyuubi's chakra had on Sakura. Jiraiya is not immortal yet all he received is one injury, albeit a major one. its also important to note that how Jiraiya would fight Naruto and how Oro would fight Naruto would be completely different because as Jiraiya said he didn't want to harm Naruto anymore than the Kyuubi itself was already doing. So it would be exceptionally difficult to fight something like four tailed Naruto while not trying to hurt him at all.

[DarthEnderX]

As to the last part of your post hopefully this will put things to rest but it was said that the risk of using the shadow clone technique is that your chakra is divided up between your clones. If the chakra was returned to the user then there would be no risk, since the chakra would be returned to the user. Also if the chakra is returned then there would be no reason why other people couldn't use the technique.

My explanation explains that statement just as well. And also manages to neatly explain why Naruto isn't wasting 90% of his chakra every battle.

I mean, at the beginning of every fight, Naruto summons clones, and they get killed in seconds. If all the chakra is split evenly, it means he just lost almost all of his chakra doing that.

Is your implication seriously that Naruto would have 10-20x his chakra in these fights if he just didn't use Shadow Clones?

I'm sorry, but this line of thinking just isn't supported mathamatically by the series. Especially when he goes on to using his most powerful techniques most of the time AFTER using a shit-ton of clones.

[Uchiha Barles]

Mathematically speaking, very little of what we're talking about is supported by the series. Including whether or not Naruto gets chakra back from clones being dispelled. I do agree however, based on what's been shown and what you argued, a reasonable assumption would be that he does. Not getting that chakra back would be a nice limitation though.

I do have a gripe with this though. Kage bunshin is an absurdly powerful techinique. Each clone is real, and each clone can perform any technique that the original user can, provided the clone has enough chakra to do so. For example, Naruto's been shown to use his kyubi kao ken attack with a zillion clones out against kimimaro (never mind that he did jack shit with it - I choose to regard that as an inconsistancy in the writing). Imagine what happens if Naruto at some point learns to do the rasengan with one hand and improves his taijutsu. What happens if gains some mid distance/ long range distance skills (think a powered up version of the ninja stars and ninja knives he threw at gaara when he had all those clones).

Hell, look at what the third did: Defeated 2 former kages, both of whom were his instructors at some point, using the absurdly powerful sealing technique of the fourth. I'm of the belief that if Oro had not summoned those two, he would not have won, even if the third was old as hell.

I think that kage bunshin being this powerful, and THIS easy to learn (you know, Naruto learned all by himself, it can't be that hard), is why it found itself in the scroll of forbidden techniques. You can't have everyone and their moms running around knowing this skill.

In any event, they really need to get to the details of the technique. It's central to the main characters strategies, and going forward, he will increase in power exponentially for every new technique he learns on account of his mastery of kage bunshin. They need to lay down some ground rules, and maybe some limitations, before they have to go back and ignore rules that were previously established by implication.

[Yukimura]

I can't believe we're arguing about limitations on the amount of 'power' a shounen hero has available using concepts like math and limitations... You should know by now that a shounen character who should be completely out of energy by logic is never actually going to run out of energy. It is not meant to imply that he always had more energy, it just means he did a shounen hero power up and just pulled energy out of the vacuum of plot.

What I see wrong with the explanations claiming that Naruto must get his chakra back is that they only rely on the absurdity of the idea that Naruto can use 90% his energy and then proceed to use 90% of his energy again 5 minutes later to essentially the same effect.

In the interest of sanity I understand that an explanation need be found though. My way of sleeping at night is to believe Naruto simply regenerates energy at an incredible rate, meaning that it only takes him moments to generate the maximum amount of chakra that his body can hold without using.

I want to state for the record that the following is just how I think about it, none of this has true canonical backing, but it does fit a bunch of what we've been told before.

This is how I like to think of ninja chakra, a given ninja's body can hold and work with no more than X amount of chakra at one time. This means that they normally can't do a technique that requires more than X chakra to complete because they can't put more than that much out in one burst.

Independant of X, is a ninja's chakra refill rate, Y, which is how quickly stamina can be converted into additional chakra when the needs arises. Watching the show seems to support the idea that Naruto's Y is so high enough that a fresh and rested Naruto can produce his X amount of chakra in almost no time at all.

The final component is a ninja's upper limit on chakra output in a given day, Z. This number most likely corresponds with how much stamina one has available to turn into more chakra. A ninja's chakra can be replenished at rate Y but there is a physical limitation on how long a body can sustain Y at it's maximum level. As one gets more and more tired from producing chakra Y will decreases and it will reach 0 once Z chakra has been generated without sufficient rest. I think at this point you either die or become immobile.


With this system it is conceivable that Naruto's X,Y, and Z numbers could allow him to waste huge percentages of his X, then refill immediately with an above average Y, and not have to worry about running out too soon due to an above average Z.

I took Kakashi's explanation about Naruto having 3 times more chakra than him to mean Naruto's Z number is 3 times higher than Kakashi's, implying he has the potential to generate and spend the same amount of chakra as Kakashi for 3 times as long. On the other hand I wouldn't be comfortable saying that Naruto has a higher X number than Kakashi because of the ease with which Kakashi uses high level techniques in a short period of time.

[Uchiha Barles]

Awww, now look what you've done Yuki, you went ahead officially made into a geek fest something that was only bordering on it....I'm in!

I prefer the simpler explanation for chakra and it's usage. Each person has a certain amount of chakra at any given time. Like, if Naruto and Kakashi have not been using chakra, and Kakashi says "you have four times the chakra I have", then that's how much chakra Naruto has at that moment.

The amount of chakra that can be outputted by a ninja is determined by whatever biological system that transfers chakra out of the body. To illustrate what I mean, take an electrical signal generated by a neuron. The signal is propagated by a change in the concentration of ions along the neuron (very simplistically speaking). Once a signal has been passed, another one cannot pass until until the ion concentrations return to their "pre-signal" concentrations. The speed at which this happens depends on the person (again, simplistically speaking). A similar thing could explain why one person is able to output more chakra than another. Maybe the number of outlets from which chakra can leak differs by ninja. Maybe there's strain associated with leaking out chakra, and the amount of strain that the chakra vessels can take also varies per person. A combination of these two would explain why training on the rasengan made Naruto's hand numb and blistered and what not.

So basically, this takes the X variable you mentioned and makes it static over short periods of time, by making the Y function determine that chakra replenishes at a much slower rate. The Z function would be a determined by the specifics I speculated on in the previous paragraph.

Now, as far as using the fact that this is a shonen story to excuse that these characters get "shonen hero power ups", is not something I sit well with. The reason is, Hunter x Hunters does this crap MUCH better. You are hard pressed to find anything that's happened to any character in the story that doesn't fit into the system they established in the beginning. If you consider Kurapica's eyes, he's an exception, and his exception still makes use of the nen system in a way that doesn't make you call "bullshit". The hero power ups are well there. The hero power ups in this anime leave much to be desired. HxH shows us things don't have to be the way they are. In fact, I'll throw on some twisted sister right now..."we're not gonna take it! NO!"

One more edit: What makes it worse, is that the series gives a pretense of explaining these things to us. If you're gonna bother with an explanation, make it good. Otherwise, DBZ it, you don't hear anyone who like DBZ complaining about a lack of explanation, because the series doesn't even try.

[Archangel]

I'm not one to write a 100 word post so i'll just say that i agree with baries except about "shonen hero power ups" since this show explains it better than any other just by the simple fact that naruto has a never ending supply of chakra within him courtesy of the nine tail as well as amazing regeneration. It's a crappy explanation but one that can be used at any time naruto feels like doing something cool.

[Abdula]

The amount of chakra that can be outputted by a ninja is determined by whatever biological system that transfers chakra out of the body. To illustrate what I mean, take an electrical signal generated by a neuron. The signal is propagated by a change in the concentration of ions along the neuron (very simplistically speaking). Once a signal has been passed, another one cannot pass until until the ion concentrations return to their "pre-signal" concentrations. The speed at which this happens depends on the person (again, simplistically speaking). A similar thing could explain why one person is able to output more chakra than another. Maybe the number of outlets from which chakra can leak differs by ninja. Maybe there's strain associated with leaking out chakra, and the amount of strain that the chakra vessels can take also varies per person. A combination of these two would explain why training on the rasengan made Naruto's hand numb and blistered and what not.

So basically, this takes the X variable you mentioned and makes it static over short periods of time, by making the Y function determine that chakra replenishes at a much slower rate. The Z function would be a determined by the specifics I speculated on in the previous paragraph.

I agree with this since most of what you say is actually supported in one way or another by facts from the show. So Yuki's formula and your theory could technically explain everything but it really doesn't mean much if Kishi doesn't explain it himself. Besides like Archangel said there is also the BS factor to consider.

[Archangel]

I agree with this since most of what you say is actually supported in one way or another by facts from the show. So Yuki's formula and your theory could technically explain everything but it really doesn't mean much if Kishi doesn't explain it himself. Besides like Archangel said there is also the BS factor to consider.

Lol correct you are Abdula. We can come up with any rational and plausible theories to as how naruto can pull off such amazing shit and still suck on a daily bases but the fact still remains that the chakra system works like kakashi says so weather it makes sense or not.

And if you want some more info to mess with your head, remember how naruto pulled off a massive army of shadow clones while he had just learned the technique only to have the number drastically reduced till his fight with gaara. And no, that first episode wasn't the pilot, i've read the actual pilot and believe it or not it makes even less sense XD

[KrayZ33]

And if you want some more info to mess with your head, remember how naruto pulled off a massive army of shadow clones while he had just learned the technique only to have the number drastically reduced till his fight with gaara. And no, that first episode wasn't the pilot, i've read the actual pilot and believe it or not it makes even less sense XD

what do you mean by that Oo?

he learned the technique and was able to do the "mass shadow-clone technique" because he was angry -> nine-tails -> mass-chakra
It's a given that the nine-tails gives chakra to Naruto whenever he feels hatred. I think it was even explained by some minor-character.

the only thing that is weird is that he was actually able to LEARN the technique at all.. why is he able to learn kage-bushin if he couldn't even use the normal one.

[Mizuchi]

Although, I never understood why the Fire Country's village was a leaf. Leaves are, like, the opposite of fire...

because the village is hidden by leaves.

To answer the question of how it would be a waste to do shadow clones if the techniques desired required small amounts of chakra:

Even though the chakra is returned to the main body when the clone is defeated, the original user doesn't necesarily get 100% of his chakra back, because kage bunshin is indeed a jutsu in itself and requires chakra to perform.

So if if naruto has 100 chakra points, and makes one clone, each clone doesn't have 50 points, but rather naruto first spent 2 chakra points performing the jutsu, giving each himself and the clone 49 points.

[Assertn]

Yes yes we already went through all this....

[Mizuchi]

Yes yes we already went through all this....

Just making sure.

[DarthEnderX]

You can always tell when Naruto is expressly using the Fox's chakra because his eyes turn red.

Otherwise, he's just using his own natural chakra, which is still 4x Kakashi's.

[Sam98034]

Well think of it like this maybe. When Naruto makes one clone, he does actually work and control that clone. Because he has to use part of his energy to control that clone he is limited to his energy, meaning Naruto is now only capable of using 50% of his chakra, the other 50% is going towards controlling the other clone. He is not losing any chakra, he is limiting the amount he can use to control the others. Now if he creates a clone, and someone immediately defeats it, Naruto doesn't have to limit himself to control that one, so he has close to all his chakra back. Does that make any sense?

[redcat]

Well think of it like this maybe. When Naruto makes one clone, he does actually work and control that clone. Because he has to use part of his energy to control that clone he is limited to his energy, meaning Naruto is now only capable of using 50% of his chakra, the other 50% is going towards controlling the other clone. He is not losing any chakra, he is limiting the amount he can use to control the others. Now if he creates a clone, and someone immediately defeats it, Naruto doesn't have to limit himself to control that one, so he has close to all his chakra back. Does that make any sense?

interesting but i think its wrong. neji showed us in ep 60 that there is chakra in all of narutos clones, so he was unable to tell which was the real naruto even with Byakugan.

also, if he was actively controlling his clones, he should have known that he won rock, paper, scissors before the clone was dispelled.

what you described is prolly how normal clones work.

[Sam98034]

His control might be being used subconciously and later returned to his normal memory, otherwise I don't see how exactly they would be able to work together as they have in the past. Maybe he mentally tells them what to do and they listen as well. You do bring up a good point with ep 60 though. Naruto does actually have chakra running through all of the clones. However, his chakra might return when he dispels them. That would explain why they just go poof so quickly, he is dispelling them so that they don't lose much chakra or stamina from getting injured. I only say this because if the converse were actually true, there would never be a reason to ever dispel it. Since the chakra is already gone regardless, it's pointless to dispel 1000 clones. You can atleast let them do yard work or something until they run out of their chakra. So it either takes a bit of work to control them, or he recieves some chakra back from dispelling them.

[Uchiha Barles]

Ok, this stamina thing is killing me. I still don't get it. When I think "stamina", I think endurance. That would be an attribute whose extent depends on a person's muscle and cardiovascular fitness. Can you trade in "endurance" for more chakra? Like, you can generate extra chakra at the expense of becoming more tired? Cuz otherwise, it sounds like you guys are talking about stamina as if it was this thing of substance, tangible, like you can measure it with a cup or something. It also seems as if you guys are talking about it like "you can trade 3 ounces of stamina for 1 ounce of chakra". Which is the case here? And whatever the case, what in the anime or manga makes you believe this? Because after going over all the posts talking about stamina, I still don't get it.

[Abdula]

Yes when we say stamina we are actually talking about endurance etc although stamina is how they refer to it in the show. Yes, it does depend on a person's muscle and cardiovascular fitness as it was said that characters like Gai and Lee have exceptional stamina. Though I'm not sure of the exchange rate you can indeed "trade in" your stamina for chakra if need be. Much like with shadow clones and everything else not much was actually mentioned about it other than what was already stated. Kishi has yet to explain exactly how that one works aswell.

[Sam98034]

And Naruto's stamina has a lot to do with his ability to replenish it quicker than most due to the *healing* powers of the kyuubi. This gives him like a second wind, third wind, and fourth wind. I'm not sure about how the conversion works either. There might not even be one. For most it might work like this, by the time they run out of chakra, they are exhausted and out of stamina as well. So their body needs to rest, replenishing their body first (stamina) then chakra. In Naruto's case since he has a extraordianry stamina since the kyuubi is healing his body constantly, he still has plenty of stamina after his chakra is all gone, so while he is running around using no ninja skills, just tai jutsu, his chakra is replenishing itself. This can make it seem like he has an enormous amount of chakra when in fact he has an ok amount that just keeps replenishing itself. The kyuubi chakra is extraordinary, but his is maybe just above average.

Imagine an rpg where you face two bosses, one has 1000 hp and the other has 2000hp. But the one with 1000hp has reagen (spl?) on it and heals 100 hp each round while you're hitting at 120. Boss one takes 50 hits, while the other takes less than 20. And when you miss on boss one, it negates your last 5 hits. While boss one has 1000 hp it feels like 6000+ hp. However if you can hit at 800, boss one is easier. In Naruto's case though the finishing blow actually takes him down to 1 hp instead of killing him afterwhich he transforms into a beast with 100000hp.

So stamina might not be getting converted to chakra, its just that with enough of it, your body can just focus on regaining chakra and not on healing itself. Just a thought.

[Kraco]

I'm nowhere near you guys' level of expertise in this matter, but to me it seems strange stamina and chakra even could be totally separate from each other. It's the same body that produces both, so obviously both the chakra capacity and the regen rate depend on the condition of the body, and the condition of the body is also directly responsible for the stamina the person has. Stamina is also affected by the willpower, not just the muscle and cardiovascular fitness, as those who have suitable experience and training know. Some people just don't have the balls to take as much punishment as others before feeling they can't take it anymore, but I suspect in a ninja village such attitude would be removed, and people are trained to run till they drop dead.

In any case, as long as we aren't talking about some freaky mutant, a person with high stamina should also have lots of chakra and a high chakra regeneration rate. I even dare say Kakashi would have more stamina and chakra if he used more time training like his arch rival Gai and less time reading icha icha paradise...