Naruto Shippuuden Episode 55

[Abdula]

It's not only the ammount of chakra to create the clones, Kakashi also made notice of Naruto's stamina. You can pretty much assume that no one in Konoha has either the chakra ammount and stamina to make this effort worthwhile. Not only that, I'm willing to bet that not everyone (jounin+) or that many people know how to do the actual kage bunshin, and even if they do, that they can actually be any effective with it. They do some clones here and there, but not the actual kage bunshin.

Also, it's kinda dumb to assume that all the Naruto clones think the exact same way or would handle the same situation the exact same way. When you're confronted with the same situation or problem, do you always deal with it the exact same way? No. You never do.

Well it was mentioned before that in the Narutoverse chakra and stamina or the exact same thing or atleast they are directly related.

No its not really dumb to assume that because, no a normal person wouldn't but Naruto would and has and I believe Jiraiya mentioned something to that extent before though I can't remember exactly where.

Also, Kakashi explained why this method isn't for everyone. Not only can most people not create the same number of clones, most people can't sustain a shadow clone's existance for as long as Naruto can. Straight from the mouth of Kakashi. If you found a Jounin who could sustain, say, 3 clones for as long as Naruto can sustain 20, then yes, he could benifit from that training method in all likelihood. But as of right now, we don't that any ninja we've encountered can, and we don't know that any we've encountered can't, except kakashi, and probably sakura.

And if this is a cheezy way to make Naruto more powerful, I'm all for it. That fucking sharingan is second to none in cheese factor.

That doesn't make sense since it was never mentioned that there is an exact requirement for one to perform a shadow clone, when it was first explained all that was said was that the technique divided up the chakra of the user evenly amongst the clones so twenty Naruto bushins and twenty Kakashi bushins would not require the same amount of chakra. It was mentioned again when Konohamaru's teacher, can't remember that guys name, said that with the same amount of chakra it takes for Naruto to make one clone Sakura and Sasuke could probably make twenty. So logically since the amount of chakra required for the technique is dependent on the user I don't see why someone else couldn't maintain other clones for just as long.

As for your last line I'm surprised you don't see the potential there, if its always going to be using one cheesy technique to 1up another cheesy technique then where do you think this is headed.

No, because it isn't enough to just be able to maintain the clones. You have to realize that not only is naruto using 1000 clones but he's also using a technique that requires some chakra. Even the jounins that are able to use a fair amount of shadow clones only use taijitsu while maintaining them since their chakra is already so spread out.

Btw, this technique gets retarded points for instantaneously returning the chakra from the clones to the user. I mean wtf does naruto have a bluetooth receiver on his ass or something?

Reminds me of the thirds battle with Oro, because he too used shadow clones which should have evenly divided up his chakra amongst himself and the two clones and then he still proceeded to use an insanely powerful technique (powerful enough to seal Kyuubi) which I'm sure required a huge amount of chakra and this was after he had already used a number of jutsus against Oro including a high level summoning.

[Archangel]

Just because it's anime it doesn't mean it has to lack complete sense :P

Hmmm... an arc featuring shikamaru's team? I'd watch that

Abdula - Could u be more specific? I'm not really remembering that fight

[Uchiha Barles]

To Abdula

You're right about a few things: the amount of Chakra it takes to perform the technique varies by person, according to the efficiency with which they use the chakra to perform the technique. But you might be misunderstanding something about kage bunshin. It divides the chakra of a person evenly. To be more specific, Naruto has 4 times more chakra than kakashi, when only considering the chakra that is proper to Naruto, not the demon. That means, that Naruto can create four clones, and each clone will have the same amount of chakra as kakashi. This is significant, because in order to train, you need to have enough chakra to do so. Any clone that doesn't have enough chakra to train is useless, and if one clone is useless on account of that, all the clones are useless on account of the way kage bunshin distributes the user's chakra. This is what Arcangel mentioned. The chakra it takes to perform the technique is different than what happens to the remaining chakra (as in, how the chakra is distributed among clones - you should think of those things separately).

As far as what that teacher said, at this point, I would assume naruto's as good as anyone else at using the technique efficiently (as in, making the clones without waste of excess chakra). So there should be a direct correlation between the chakra distribution Naruto experiences, and the chakra distribution someone else experience by virtue of the technique. Again, this is separate from the cost of performing the technique. If Naruto has more chakra than some other ninja, each of his clones will be more suited for training than that other ninja.

As far as that last line is concerned, it's just in keeping with my distaste for the hardon kishi has for Sasuke, and the horrible job he's doing with Naruto growth. Not that this makes things much better, but it makes them a little better. Hopefully, that'll be it for the stupid nonsense power ups (but you know it won't be.)

[Munsu]

Yes, chakra and stamina are related, but they're not the same thing. It's like saying to a marathon runner that keeping your body hydrated and your resistance is one and the same. They aren't, but when running a marathon one affects the other, etc.

[Assertn]

It was never elaborated in the anime, but according to the manga (sometime back during the chuunin exam), stamina gets converted to chakra when you exhaust your chakra. Characters like Rock Lee just use the stamina directly, without converting it.

But, if you max out your stamina by converting it to chakra and exhausting the chakra...you can die.

[Yukimura]

Just to clear something else up It was never stated that the chakra of a clone returns to the orignal user when the technique is over only the experiences. When Naruto fought Garaa in the forest he mentioned that he'd used up almost all of his chakra after he created the 1000 clones that Garaa destroyed by getting big. This wouldn't have been the case if he got all the chakra each of those thousand clones must have possessed back.

Another observation since we're strolling down memory lane, the thirds shadow clones survived multiple direct strikes and even got knocked down while they were waiting for Shiki Fuujin to ge ready and then while they were grabbing the hokage zombies. This always made me think that a skilled enough user could create shadow clones that could stand a few hits, as long as the user made them well or something. (Or Kishi just doens't like his own rules)

[Archangel]

But, if you max out your stamina by converting it to chakra and exhausting the chakra...you can die.

So i guess that's why you die after opening the 8th gate right?

Just using a jutsu by itself spends chakra yuki, if that wasn't the case then using shadow clones wouldn't spend any chakra as long as no clone used a jutsu.

[Assertn]

So i guess that's why you die after opening the 8th gate right?

yep

Just using a jutsu by itself spends chakra yuki, if that wasn't the case then using shadow clones wouldn't spend any chakra as long as no clone used a jutsu.

Indeed....the chakra used for the jutsu is what is lost though, not the distributed chakra.

If naruto makes 1 clone, he splits all his chakra between him and the clone.
When he disperses the clone, that doesn't mean that he still only has half the chakra that he started with...he gets back whatever chakra the clone didn't use.

[Uchiha Barles]

Just to clear something else up It was never stated that the chakra of a clone returns to the orignal user when the technique is over only the experiences. When Naruto fought Garaa in the forest he mentioned that he'd used up almost all of his chakra after he created the 1000 clones that Garaa destroyed by getting big. This wouldn't have been the case if he got all the chakra each of those thousand clones must have possessed back.

Another observation since we're strolling down memory lane, the thirds shadow clones survived multiple direct strikes and even got knocked down while they were waiting for Shiki Fuujin to ge ready and then while they were grabbing the hokage zombies. This always made me think that a skilled enough user could create shadow clones that could stand a few hits, as long as the user made them well or something. (Or Kishi just doens't like his own rules)

There might be a couple of ways to interpret what happens to kage bunshins when they get struck. If you compare the ease with which Naruto's kage bunshins get destroyed as compared to the third's, I'm inclined to say that Naruto sucks so bad at taijutsu that it's just that easy to deliver a killing blow on a clone. Whereas, for the third, the blows that he took weren't killing blows.

Another might be that, the more clones you make, the weaker each is. That's consistant with the fact that the more clones you make, the less chakra they have. And if that chakra link with stamina is true, then that gives even more credence to this interpretation.

About the user of Kage Bunshin getting the unused portion of chakra back upon dispell, would that also apply if the clones were destroyed instead of dispelled?

[KrayZ33]

Indeed....the chakra used for the jutsu is what is lost though, not the distributed chakra.

If naruto makes 1 clone, he splits all his chakra between him and the clone.
When he disperses the clone, that doesn't mean that he still only has half the chakra that he started with...he gets back whatever chakra the clone didn't use.

ya i think so too

if naruto has 100 chakra points and the creation of 1 Kage bushin takes away 1 of those points then its like

Naruto = 49,5 points Clone = 49,5 points

if he release him instantly he gets back what the clone has left, in this case 49,5 points

Naruto = 99 points
if the clone uses a technique it will have less points after that and so on

and it seems like the clone is constantly loosing chakra points over time.
so when naruto goes for a walk, together with the clone, the clone will only have like 45,5 chakra points left

Naruto = 95 points (i m not sure about this one.. its possibly that oth naruto and the clone lose chakra if they move around all the time, i don't know if his chakra is ALWAYS splittet 50:50 or just at the moment he made them)

^^ well i guess thats how it works.

@ kage bushin taking a few hits:

i guess the hits have to be fatal in some way. we saw kabuto breaking a kage-bushin's hand and it didn't vanish instantly, the other clones, struck by his
chakra-scalpel vanished instantly


btw i have a question, i don't have the very first episodes on my computer... but when naruto used kage-bushin against kakashi and kakashi used the replacement-jutsu, naruto thought that he used henge-no-jutsu and transformed into one of his clones.

naruto nearly knocked himself out at that point and had a lot of bruises and wounds when he dispelled his jutsu. was it mentioned that the kage-bushin user also takes the damage which the clones suffered in combat? i think something like that was mentioned, but i m not sure.

[Archangel]

Another might be that, the more clones you make, the weaker each is. That's consistant with the fact that the more clones you make, the less chakra they have. And if that chakra link with stamina is true, then that gives even more credence to this interpretation.

Well that theory does have some merit but if you think about it taijitsu doesn't really use chakra, just stamina so that shouldn't make them weaker physically but just incapable of using more advanced jutsu if any.

Doing a comparison between the thirds shadow clones and naruto's just isn't gonna work since they're on such different levels but i do think that yuki may be right, the technique in an advanced stage will probably allow the clones to survive some hits.

Btw u don't have to give naruto's clones a killing blow to get rid of them, most blows will get rid of them easily

Edit: Dude, if naruto didnt get back his chakra after his clones were destroyed he wouldn't last 2 minutes in any fight

[Abdula]

Yes as far as the clones are concerned Kishi seems to throw out the rules whenever its convient. For example we've seen clones sustain heavy damage yet the technique is not dispelled, we've even seen clones take direct hits from Neji's Jyuuken and even cough up blood but not get dispelled and then there are times when a shuriken to shoulder, a punch or even a simple finger flick would dispel them.

Btw as far as other people being able to use this technique is concerned there still doesn't seem to be any reason why other people can't use this same method to train but to a lesser extent. For example why can't say Tenten use this technique and train with one clone or guy pull a Piccolo and fight with himself because if even naruto has more chakra and stamina than anyone else the sheer number of clones he is using would makes it irrelevant.

[Uchiha Barles]

Well that theory does have some merit but if you think about it taijitsu doesn't really use chakra, just stamina so that shouldn't make them weaker physically but just incapable of using more advanced jutsu if any.

Doing a comparison between the thirds shadow clones and naruto's just isn't gonna work since they're on such different levels but i do think that yuki may be right, the technique in an advanced stage will probably allow the clones to survive some hits.

Btw u don't have to give naruto's clones a killing blow to get rid of them, most blows will get rid of them easily

Edit: Dude, if naruto didnt get back his chakra after his clones were destroyed he wouldn't last 2 minutes in any fight

A couple of things: we don't know that the third's clones are on a higher level than Naruto's. That's a third interpretation that holds no more or less water than the two I mentioned. It might be one of those skills that is the same for anyone who casts it. If the third were to cast a million clones like naruto does, each might be just as weak. We simply don't have enough details about the workings of the technique to know what interpretation is correct, if any, which is why I ventured more than one.

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

The last thing is, how do you know the chakra is returned at all, upon dispell or upon destruction of a clone? I haven't seen that in the anime, and I started reading the manga around the chasing sasuke arc, and haven't seen that in the manga either. This is conjecture, though I suppose it is an educated guess with good basis.

Btw as far as other people being able to use this technique is concerned there still doesn't seem to be any reason why other people can't use this same method to train but to a lesser extent. For example why can't say Tenten use this technique and train with one clone or guy pull a Piccolo and fight with himself because if even naruto has more chakra and stamina than anyone else the sheer number of clones he is using would makes it irrelevant.

Ok, I forgot to address one thing in your post, the stamina thing. Kakashi did also mention that there was a stamina requirement to keep a clone active, which is stamina that he himself did not possess to make that training useful to him. So basically, to make this technique work, you need the following:

1) Create clones that have enough chakra to be useful for training.
2) Have the stamina to keep them out long enough for the training.

Anyone who can do these things can use this technique. You're right. But, who do we KNOW can do this besides Naruto? Specially in regards to the second requirement. Also, who do we KNOW can do this better than Naruto as regards to both requirements?

[KrayZ33]

isn't kage bushin a "forbidden technique"?

thats probably why nearly no one use that technique, not only is it chakra inefficient (it was mentioned in the anime like 20 times) but it was also in the scroll with "forbidden techniques" naruto stole in the first episodes.

and it seems like not everyone knows about this side effect, kakashi said so because he too can make kage-bushin and thats why he knows about it.

[Archangel]

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

No, you're definitely confused about those 2 things. Taijitsu only uses stamina but i can be enhanced by using chakra by using techniques such as the 8 inner gates.

As for kage bunshin all i can tell you is that every time we see naruto's clones it doesn't matter if there are 10 or 1000 of them they always seem to demonstrate the same level of taijitsu but until we see some other characters using this technique i cant make any definitive conclusions about it .

Edit: It's probably forbidden since it's used for espionage and it's supposed to be a time of peace in the naruto world.

[KrayZ33]

Edit: It's probably forbidden since it's used for espionage and it's supposed to be a time of peace in the naruto world.

that would be no reason...our world is in "peace" too right now, yet every country has spy-satellites and a military.

[DarthEnderX]

Oh man, for an episode in which nothing actually happened, I was fucking riveted through the whole thing.

An explanation of the elements of Naruto and how they mix.

A further explanation into the intricacies of Shadow Clones.

This is the kind of awesome stuff they don't give us anymore. Ninja magic explained through faux science!


I'm also hoping that Naruto having "wing" elements will mean more than just some wind powered Rasengan further down the road. I hope he learns all kinds of wind powers. Like the Air Walk!

I wasn't expecting him to be Wind element, since most of the Sand ninja seem to be Wind element(well, it is the Wind Country). I was seriously expecting him to be Fire element since Leaf Village is in the Fire Country. And Naruto seems to exemplify everything that is the Leaf Village.


Although, I never understood why the Fire Country's village was a leaf. Leaves are, like, the opposite of fire...

[Abdula]

A couple of things: we don't know that the third's clones are on a higher level than Naruto's. That's a third interpretation that holds no more or less water than the two I mentioned. It might be one of those skills that is the same for anyone who casts it. If the third were to cast a million clones like naruto does, each might be just as weak. We simply don't have enough details about the workings of the technique to know what interpretation is correct, if any, which is why I ventured more than one.

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

The last thing is, how do you know the chakra is returned at all, upon dispell or upon destruction of a clone? I haven't seen that in the anime, and I started reading the manga around the chasing sasuke arc, and haven't seen that in the manga either. This is conjecture, though I suppose it is an educated guess with good basis.



Ok, I forgot to address one thing in your post, the stamina thing. Kakashi did also mention that there was a stamina requirement to keep a clone active, which is stamina that he himself did not possess to make that training useful to him. So basically, to make this technique work, you need the following:

1) Create clones that have enough chakra to be useful for training.
2) Have the stamina to keep them out long enough for the training.

Anyone who can do these things can use this technique. You're right. But, who do we KNOW can do this besides Naruto? Specially in regards to the second requirement. Also, who do we KNOW can do this better than Naruto as regards to both requirements?

Taijutsu apparently uses up your stamina which as Assertn explain reinforces your chakra. The relationship between the two wasn't explicitly explained though. There are a few things you could use to come up with some theories though for example during the chuunin exam it was explained that for Sasuke to learn chidori that Kakashi had Sasuke copy Lee's movements and speed.

This training was not only done to give him the speed required to perform chidori but also the stamina necessary for it. Lee specifically mentioned that although Sasuke had the ability to copy his movements there was an extreme strain on his body because he simply doesn't have the stamina required to maintain those movements so he was wondering why Kakashi bothered to teach it to Sasuke. Gai then mentioned that the training was not just to gain speed but also to gain the stamina for "body activation" as they put it in the anime.

Basically Sasuke didn't have enough chakra to perform chidori but by increasing his stamina he was able to use "body activation" which then converted his stamina into the chakra he needed to use chidori, which is why Kakashi warned him not to over use chidori since the technique directly converts his stamina into chakra and then exhausts it, so overuse would deplete his stamina which would kill him. So basically I guess "body activation" would be what they use to convert their stamina to chakra which happens normally but this further increases it. It was implied by Neji that Oro' curse seal is a further extension of this same process.

I believe that the gates work in a similar way in that they "release your limits" and forcibly convert your stamina into chakra which is why it puts such a strain on your body and why opening the final gate would give you an amount of chakra even greater than that of a kage but guarantees death. These are just my theories though like I said Kishi never explicitly explained it, or much else for that matter so basically everything is conjecture.

Okay we can agree on this thats its not impossible for someone else to use the method, its just unlikely. Not so unlikely though since Kakashi himself confessed to being a low chakra capacity ninja and if Yamato is there to prevent Naruto from using the Kyuubi then its likely that this has nothing to do with the fact that Naruto has the Kyuubi inside him. If so its reasonable to think that any ninja with a large amount of chakra and stamina can do this in which case I can think of a few likely candidates. Its just that Kishi has never really given us any details on how other ninjas rank chakra wise, convenient no?

Btw the way those were some fantastic posts. Why don't you do that more often?

[Yukimura]

@The Archangel: Tajuu Kage Buunshin no Jutsu was sealed by the First Hokage and there have definitely been wars since then.

What I would really like to know where the "you get your chakra back when a clone dispells" idea comes from, has there been any actual evidence that this or is it pure speculation to try and avoid the idea that Naruto has been shown to survive, and even continue fighting with only:
(Naruto's # of base chakra units - 1000 * the cost of a shadow clone)/1000 units of chakra.

It boggles my mind too, but I don't remember anything that implied that he was getting chakra back after blowing it on clones that did nothing.

[Abdula]

True it was never implied infact the exact opposite was implied but what the hell. With Kishi and especially where Naruto and Sasuke are concerned anything and everything is possible until you're explicitly told that it isn't. If its one thing I've learned, its that.

I don't think you were getting the chakra back though since nothing like that was mentioned, all that was said that when the technique is dispelled the information and experiences of the clone are transferred to the user. I don't think the chakra the clones had remaining is given back because that would negate the risk of the technique which is loosing your chakra so there would be no reason for it to be a forbidden technique. Anyway this could just be yet another reason why Naruto being the only one able to use this technique is implausible.