Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[Kraco]

My version is simply that he died. CC crying would have no meaning if he survived. She just appeared happy at the end because she learnt many things from Lelouch, and because she was happy the time they spent together.

The crying scene might be considered to lose some meaning if C.C. knew Lelouch wasn't going to die, but even so C.C. smiling happily after Lelouch's death would make far less sense in any case. Her original wish was to die and she chose Lelouch for that, but she eventually began to enjoy her life with Lelouch and most likely wasn't so eager to die after all, but again dared to dream of becoming happy. So, what manner of sense would it make at all that she would be happy and content if she was taken both of those things: Immortality (death) and Lelouch who was the first person who ever made her happy?

I think you are overrating the significance of memories of an important person. No matter how good memories you have, they won't make up for the person him/herself.

[animus]

One thing I haven't come across arguments for yet is the paper crane. In fact, that was truly the final thing to be shown before the credits. Did anybody remember what it symbolised?

I vaguely remember Nunnaly making if for Lelouch and Suzaku (don't think C.C. got one) at Ashford R1. Something about making one thousand of these will make your wish come true?

If so, then who's crane is it? (If I take the "Lelouch died" path, it could just simply be C.C. keeping a memento of Lelouch...)

For the Japanese if you recall, folding a thousand paper cranes granted you a wish. And in the episode, Lelouch compared the power of Geass to be as simple as a wish. Too lazy to try and concoct a relation between them, but it's probably within those cracks there.

[masamuneehs]

This is a show made in Japan

In Japan R = L

So Lelouch Lamperouge = Rerouch Rampelouge

So, yeah, the R2 = R.R. = Rerouch becomes the new codemaster is a jump I can make. But I still like to think that it really won't matter. A spin-off or sequel would be pretty pathetic, even if they keep it enjoyable.

Paper cranes are made by the Japanese in the belief that they can grant wishes. There's a famous story about a young girl suffering from effects incurred in WWII who said that she would get better if she could make 1000 paper cranes. She died first, but people sent in thousands of paper cranes they'd made themselves. They're on display in her home city. Basically a paper crane is a symbol of a wish.

also, i don't know if i could say that Lelouch LOVES CC. Really, if anything, all he's doing for her now might be more out of some sense of debt. His feelings towards her never even got near the level of love he showed for others (Nunnally throughout, even Suzaku a bit, and Shirley at her death)

Last, on the 'Lelouch got his Code from Charles'. All other cases of codes being passed on involved the Codemaster voluntarily giving their Codes away (Nun to CC, Marianne to Anya, CC's would have been passing on to Lelouch). Chuck was pretty pissed when he was about to go, and I didn't get the sense he wanted to give Lelouch anything... Also, can anyone remember if Charles got VV's code at any point, or what exactly happened? I just remember VV suddenly being mortal and Charles being immortal, but I don't recall which happened first.

[RyougaZell]

Like I said... anyone can have their own version of the ending. If you are happy believing he survived, fine. For me, he died. Keeping him alive makes most of the ending worthless. I simply believe CC learned to enjoy life thanks to him, and that is why she is shown happy, as she knew true happiness. Like someone said... better losing than never knowing.

This my opinion, not a fact.

[Buffalobiian]

Last, on the 'Lelouch got his Code from Charles'. All other cases of codes being passed on involved the Codemaster voluntarily giving their Codes away (Nun to CC, Marianne to Anya, CC's would have been passing on to Lelouch). Chuck was pretty pissed when he was about to go, and I didn't get the sense he wanted to give Lelouch anything... Also, can anyone remember if Charles got VV's code at any point, or what exactly happened? I just remember VV suddenly being mortal and Charles being immortal, but I don't recall which happened first.

I think it works both ways. As long as one's willing to give it, or one's willing to take it, it'll transfer.

When V.V. got blasted out of the Siegfield, he's hurt and cursing Lelouch. Charles came before him, and V.V. said something like "Brother, aren't I glad you came for me."

Charles then confirmed if he was lying, and looked pretty pissed about it. Afterwards, C.C. asked why did Charles take his brother's Code and kill him, and he explains their pact.

Later one, when Charles was taking the Code from C.C., she was rejecting his attempts and looking away. If it requires one to willingly give it, Charles would have tried to convince her rather than hold her.

[animus]

Paper cranes are made by the Japanese in the belief that they can grant wishes. There's a famous story about a young girl suffering from effects incurred in WWII who said that she would get better if she could make 1000 paper cranes. She died first, but people sent in thousands of paper cranes they'd made themselves. They're on display in her home city. Basically a paper crane is a symbol of a wish.

I remember that book in Grade school or junior high, I can't really recall. But it was about a girl had leukemia that she incurred when she was still in her mother's womb during the WW2 bombings. She was told that folding thousand paper cranes would grant her wish, so she spent her everyday in the hospital folding them. But I think in the story, she dies without finishing the cranes. Might not be the best synopsis, since it's a memory from quite a years ago. We might be thinking about the same book, but I just can't remember the name.

[shinta|hikari]

I think that the code can be taken even without consent, but it takes a relatively long time to transfer, like in C.C. and Charles case, not a few seconds like in the scene between Lelouch and his father. I should add that Lelouch did not intend or even know how to obtain the code at that point.

@RZ - on the contrary, killing Lelouch would make half of the story pointless, and render one integral character void of her importance (C.C.). I would also like to ask why letting Lelouch live (rather than him just being dead period) will make most of the ending worthless, so if you could explain in detail I would appreciate it.

@Masa - while it is not full-blown romantic love, I think he was quite romantically interested in her during the last few episodes, particularly the scene that Kallen interrupted. They were simply not in the type of relationship where they openly show their feelings for each other. Both were too tsundere for that (as admitted by their creators in the dvd specials)

@Buff - when I said "die happily" I did not mean for her to die immediately. The idea is for her to die being content or happy, die being the key word. If she is still immortal, this promise is simply unfulfilled. She can live with Lelouch for a while, be happy, then die of old age or something (not that I would like to see her old, so a sequel is not wanted). In short, she needs to die (immortality being her curse), since that has always been a part of her wish. The only thing she changed is her status of death when she decided to take Lelouch's offer instead of being killed by Charles. Why would they even breach the contract? I will go for Occam's razor on this one.

[Buffalobiian]

@Buff - when I said "die happily" I did not mean for her to die immediately. The idea is for her to die being content or happy, die being the key word. If she is still immortal, this promise is simply unfulfilled. She can live with Lelouch for a while, be happy, then die of old age or something (not that I would like to see her old, so a sequel is not wanted). In short, she needs to die (immortality being her curse), since that has always been a part of her wish. The only thing she changed is her status of death when she decided to take Lelouch's offer instead of being killed by Charles. Why would they even breach the contract? I will go for Occam's razor on this one.

But then you have to ask: did anybody know how to transfer the code? For all we know, all you may had had to do is simply will it. But they didn't give us enough info on this to go on..

As for Charles taking a long time, he didn't even begin to take the code from what we saw. If contact is indeed what's needed, then he was getting there, but never did. Not because of time though. Also, C.C. took her own code, which also hints that Charles never got any of it.

btw, what does it mean to take your own code anyway...a simple memory loss?

I can't even begin to understand of C.C. wants to die now or not. mystery and all. I'll leave it as she's happy to be with Lelouch.

Thing is, having taken Charles' Code and not C.C. explains, most convincingly, why C.C. cried during the scene. She had 2+ months to get over how Lelouch will take her code and her curse. I don't think she'd cry so emotionally if she didn't think he'd die.

Why breach the contract? Because it wasn't the thing they desired the most after all perhaps? C.C. desperately wanted to die before. When given the chance, she didn't take it, and even she doesn't know why. After that, we've seen her wish from way back, to be loved. A wish she long gave up, but still desired most. Since then we've heard nothing about her dying anymore, just "make me smile".

But damn you Shinta. I admit that you have swayed me somewhat that C.C. really does want to die

[RyougaZell]

@RZ - on the contrary, killing Lelouch would make half of the story pointless, and render one integral character void of her importance (C.C.). I would also like to ask why letting Lelouch live (rather than him just being dead period) will make most of the ending worthless, so if you could explain in detail I would appreciate it.

My arguments:
This is Lelouch's story. Not CC's. Not Nunnally's. Not Kallen's. Not the Black Knight's. Not Suzaku's.

Since day 1 he wanted to unify the world, and as time passed, he noticed the only true way to make it so, was to make himself the enemy of the world, and that his death will be the way for the world to be free.

If he were to be found alive everything will go down. People would distrust Nunnally, the new 'Zero', the Black Knights and everybody who knew the truth at the end, causing a new war, something Lelouch would not be willing to risk just for one person.

Lelouch was even decided to kill Nunnally if it served the purpose of the world. He wouldn't threw everything away for CC when he was willing to sacrifice Nunnally. The fact that he didn't had to sacrifice Nunnally does not mean he will risk the whole world for CC.

His final phrase before being stabed support this. Only those willing to be shoot can shoot. This can also be phrased as... only those willing to die can kill. If he had been unwilling to die, and took a code, then it will only make him into a hypocrite, and not a real hero for those who knew the truth. He aint a Yagami Light that must die because he sucked at the end, but he was someone who willingly gave his life for the greater good.

All this plan, all this new peace, it will all crash down if he survived and was found. No matter how good you hide, you will be found. Specially since all the world knows him by now. If CC couldn't escape, and was captured by Clovis, who says they cant capture him if he had survived?

I am leaving aside my Kallen fanboyism in this. You know CC is also one my favorites. But sacrificing the whole world for her is not a viable option. All this arguments are just given because you WANT it to be that way. And you are free to interpret it. My interpretation is that he died, and that his death gives meaning to the new peace.

We wont agree. You will still believe its him. I still believe its not him. This are just my arguments of why I believe it isnt him and that he died.

He aint a martyr, that is undeniable. But he truly cherised his friends. And he gladly gave his life. This is an aspect of Lelouch we lost after he gained geass and specially after he thought he lost Nunnally. When Rolo gave his life he understood this role, remember he was about to let the OBK kill him.

CC was happy at the end because Lelouch taught her hope. If there is any ova or movie in the future, it will be without him, but I rather there be none.

[Pure2500]

Finished watching it on TV yesterday.
I am very satisfied with the ending.
To me i think Lelouch is dead, ive been expecting him to die since the first series.
Why is the drivers face covered?
simple, because he is not important !! people that has been watching anime for long time should understand they do that kind of stuff often.
Just a reminder, Lelouch is a bad ass, manipulating people and he sure did killed a lot of people right? He is SUPPOSE TO DIE.
For him not to die would be like not killing off Light in Death Note.
Maybe some people are just to obsessed with Lelouch...

CC was happy at the end because Lelouch taught her hope. If there is any ova or movie in the future, it will be without him, but I rather there be none.

totally agree.

[Yukimura]

The impression I got was V.V. thought he was still immortal, but then got fucked up in his Knightmare and when Charles showed up and did an evil grin then V.V. realized that he wasn't immortal anymore. Charles said something about V.V. lying to him and later when they were in the world of C I got the impression that he was talking about V.V. killing Marianne, but I didn't' fully understand the dynamic of that situation though so maybe it was something else he was lying about. But I don't think the V.V. to Charles Code transfer occurred on screen or that it was done voluntarily.

[shinta|hikari]

@RZ -

All I can say is, that is a stretch.

When people think you are dead (like you seem to), no one will look for you.

Him surviving is not exclusively for his love/affection for C.C.

He did not say that final phrase. That was a flashback from when he and Suzaku (obviously unaware of his plan) were talking.

I was asking why you think the ending would mostly be meaningless if he were alive. You simply answered by trying to prove his death. Him surviving does not take away anything from what he has achieved. Don't force it to be so.

CC was happy at the end because Lelouch taught her hope.

Not to be rude, but this made me laugh.

Still, let us just agree to disagree. The ending isn't absolutely conclusive anyway.

EDIT:

@Buff - I didn't say she wanted to die as soon as she could, but rather that she is tired of immortality. There is a significant difference between the two.

[RyougaZell]

@RZ -

All I can say is, that is a stretch.

When people think you are dead (like you seem to), no one will look for you.

Him surviving is not exclusively for his love/affection for C.C.

He did not say that final phrase. That was a flashback from when he and Suzaku (obviously unaware of his plan) were talking.

I was asking why you think the ending would mostly be meaningless if he were alive. You simply answered by trying to prove his death. Him surviving does not take away anything from what he has achieved. Don't force it to be so.



Not to be rude, but this made me laugh.

Still, let us just agree to disagree. The ending isn't absolutely conclusive anyway.

Shinta... if my arguments is a stretch so are yours, since you are searching for any way for CC to be with Lelouch. I said it. This aint her story.

I gave the argument of why its meaningless because if he were to be found alive, it all will crash down.Everything. The world needed someone to hate, someone to die. If he survived, then the world will not find this closure. Nunnally understood this. Suzaku understood this. Kallen understood this. Heck, I think even Kaguya understood. THis is why Kallen made Toudou shut up and play along with the new Zero.

Sure, you do not look for a dead man. But any dead man can be recognized.


Whatever, lets agree to disagree as you say. But likewise, my argument is a stretch, so is yours. And it shall remain a stretch until Sunrise fucks up making R3 where Lelouch returns.

[Narasho]

There's absoletely no need for a third season with the story perfectly concluded. I don't know how deeply Sunrise is regularly distrusted, but I give them enough respect to think they know better than to drag an honourably buried horse from its grave.

Gundam Seed Destiny... Need I say more?

And to add to shinta's theory I'd also add that Lelouch never really struck me as a person who would choose to die if he could avoid it. Though he's a narcist and loves himself more than anything else, I don't still think he would go down the way of dying as a martyr, because not actually doing it yet appearing to all the world as if he did would be just a Lelouch kind of a master plan.

I agree that Lelouch doesn't seem like someone who would die if he could avoid it, and since he could cause the perception of his death without actually dying, and that would accomplish everything he wanted, he may have been the person driving the cart at the end.

However, I don't agree with your statement about him being a narcist and loving himself more than anything else. He is a very prideful person, that I can agree with. But throughout the entire series he was fighting for his sister. Also, I really think he loved CC and Kalleen more than himself. His sacrifice at the end (whether or not he really died, he still sacrificed himself) proves this.

[Kraco]

Not to be rude, but this made me laugh.

Indeed. It's an honest comment from someone who only saw Kallen and never C.C. for the duration of the show, no doubt.

I gave the argument of why its meaningless because if he were to be found alive, it all will crash down.Everything. The world needed someone to hate, someone to die. If he survived, then the world will not find this closure. Nunnally understood this. Suzaku understood this. Kallen understood this. Heck, I think even Kaguya understood. THis is why Kallen made Toudou shut up and play along with the new Zero.

I don't think the world is that simple a place, let alone international politics. The significance of Lelouch death was already achieved when the Britannian Empire apparently crumbled and it became just one nation among other equals. Lelouch hasn't been in power for a long time, and it would be hard for anybody anymore to try to make the old world come back simply because one man was found lingering somewhere. No doubt he would be hunted like the Israeli are still hunting nazi war criminals but it wouldn't collapse nations (just like finding Hitler alive wouldn't have suddenly changed anything after WWII). And moreover if he did nothing he couldn't even be used in internal politics. It would mean personal/political difficulties for some individual people, like Nunnally, but that's it.

I like these kind of endings in any case. They let people believe whatever they prefer.

[RyougaZell]

Indeed. It's an honest comment from someone who only saw Kallen and never C.C. for the duration of the show, no doubt.

Ant this are the kind of comments of those who only saw CC and not Lelouch.

When did I even use Kallen in my statements of why Lelouch died?

Screw it, im outta of this Code CC, CC of the Rebellion thread.

[Kraco]

Hey, hey, hey! It was about C.C. that time, not about Lelouch. You said C.C. would be happy because somebody taught her about hope. The C.C. I saw became unhappy if she was refused her pizza for a day. And even seriously speaking I don't think someone who has only dreamt of death for so long can be taught anything by leaving her alone with her memories and crushed hopes. If a crying C.C. had been the last thing we saw before the credits and not a smiling C.C. with no worries, I'd agree Lelouch is dead.

[Buffalobiian]

O.S.T #2 Artwork:

[Buffalobiian]

Anyone know the song before the ending?

It's called Continued Story by Hitomi. It can be found in the Second Code Geass R2 OST.

Grab it here from our very own Code Geass Music Release Thread.

Like the ending, it's up to us to ponder the meaning of "Continued Story"

[Kraco]

Aww... such a nice image. Lelouch is even playing with sleeping C.C.'s hair. Though you can very well imagine that scene happening just prior to Lelouch and Suzaku travelling to Japan and the end of the zero requiem, casting a bit more morbid light on it. Lelouch's expression is that of a man making peace with himself and the world, and Suzaku is looking at the horizon with a serious expression, knowing his longest work is only beginning.