Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[KrayZ33]

but if Lelouch is a Geass-Master now, doesn't that mean he lost his geass-power?

Because the emporor did "trade" his geass for immortality (he stated this himself I think, when he stood up again after he shot himself)
and C.C. did also lose her 2-eyed geass (!!! she seemed to use it often btw poor C.C., well this explains her attitude btw ^^) and gained immortality because she(?) killed the nun

So imho: Succession (I don't know yet what is needed to succeed, probably the fulfillment of the master's wish) means loosing the Geass and gaining immortality, will the successed person loses everything

Charles beeing able to kill V.V. is simple, since he is the Contractor... and from what we know, the Contractor is the only one able to do such a thing.

but then again, he didn't really kill him did he? I mean, he still was alive and spoke with C.C. etc.

[Ryllharu]

I fail to see where Lelouch lost his Geass. The Emperor, NOT Lelouch, was taking C.C.'s from her when Lelouch intervened and we got this result, like it was half completed.

...and also, who says that the master has to die? It was usually their wish to die. They merely become mortal again after passing it off. The nun clearly killed herself the second she was able to do so.

[David75]

So Lelouch entered the thought elevator with his contact on. That means that when he's near the gate again, with C.C. having lost her memories, he could still have his geass...

I thought he had the mark, but I was wrong, no image backs that idea. It's in fact the train of ideas of the ep, and the mark proeminently shown on the gate right before, that may lead you to that direction. There's no way to know before we have a clear picture of his bare forehead.

Since the process was incomplete, we may have:
Charles as a Geass Master, the only remaining one that is not killable
C.C. back to her state before she met the geass
Lelouch with his Geass still active, maybe.

[shinta|hikari]

Wait, how is it clear that the Nun killed herself? I am convinced C.C. killed her after thinking that she was deceived all this time. She had tons of blood on her in that scene.

Also, C.C. clearly said that if Lelouch wanted the power of immortality, he had to kill her, not let her die, but kill her. She even commented on Lelouch being too kind, and that is why he would not be able to do it. I think this is enough proof to show that killing is a prerequisite for succession. Of course, it is not certain since there is no definite indication as of yet, but it is more than probable, I think.

EDIT: Oh, and to add to my point, when Lelouch said the line "Do you really want to die with such a face!?" (or something like that), it seems he firmly believes that C.C. will definitely die during that process, and he saw C.C.'s past completely, unlike the GP version we got. If she was just going to become mortal after the ritual, then he would not comment like he did. Heck, he might even do it to C.C. himself, then just convince her not to kill herself afterwards.

Also, what would be the point of showing that the ritual was interrupted when C.C. saved Lelouch if the result was going to be the same (meaning becoming mortal, maybe memory reversion)?

[Lucifus]

What exactly does the sword of aka-whatever do? I was thinking Lelouch unknowingly destroyed it along with all of C.C.'s memories. Whats the thought elevator thingy anyway?

She went totally blank as soon as the sword thingy got blasted and those haunting scenes began.

-.- Confusing.....

Its obvious she no longer has her code however;

C.C. said she would end the Geass linage. And with blasting of the thingy;

C.C. went blank, the emperor freaked out, that clock starting ticking back and during all this attempt at rescue Lelouch managed to sneak a Contact on for what purpose?

He still had his Geass while C.C. was doing her blank stare falling thingy.

At the gate after blasting.

Edit:

And who said one has to kill the prior Geass master to take over? The emp left V.V. alive and he obviously took his code.

Maybe just fullfilling the contract (i'm assuming V.V.'s wish wasn't to die) or simply attaining mastery over ones Geass give you the ability to overcome your master...

Actually, the nun said all thats required to transfer mastery is someone who possesses a geass above the norm. Dual wielding babies.

Lelouch cant possibly have become a Geass master.

Dat nikkah done lost his geass and trumped sexy badass C.C.

I'll kill him!

[shinta|hikari]

Ah, good point. It seems more likely that C.C. lost her memories because Lelouch destroyed the structure, especially since the emperor started shouting curses when Lelouch did it. She did seem to have her memories intact when she freed Lelouch. The structure (whatever it is) must have direct influence on the powers of geass, I just hope it doesn't mean that all forms of geass are lost.

About Lelouch's eyes, you do realize that a lot of time may have passed before C.C. woke up right? I am not saying this is definite, but just noting the proximity of the scenes to each other is not enough to prove that they happened within a short period of time (like a few minutes/seconds), especially since this is code geass with its sudden time skips.

About the V.V. thing, C.C. said this exactly when she saw V.V. dying: "Charles, why did you take V.V.'s code now? Why did you kill the brother you admired so much?" Maybe V.V. just didn't die immediately, but obtaining the code I think results in death. Well, unless Charles took the code, made V.V. mortal, then killed him, which is also quite possible.

I completely agree with the idea that it only takes a certain level of geass in order to gain succession, or in other words, achieve the ability to kill geass masters. That is what C.C. explicitly said. She did not say that it is required to kill them, but that seemed to be the case with all the examples presented (the nun, V.V. who both died, and C.C. who clearly said that Lelouch needs to kill her to succeed the power) The geass master's wish (ie. V.V.) does not seem to matter at all, which means that there is no such condition as "fulfilling the contract" in order to gain the master rank.

[Ryllharu]

Wait, how is it clear that the Nun killed herself? I am convinced C.C. killed her after thinking that she was deceived all this time. She had tons of blood on her in that scene.

Also, C.C. clearly said that if Lelouch wanted the power of immortality, he had to kill her, not let her die, but kill her. She even commented on Lelouch being too kind, and that is why he would not be able to do it. I think this is enough proof to show that killing is a prerequisite for succession. Of course, it is not certain since there is no definite indication as of yet, but it is more than probable, I think.

EDIT: Oh, and to add to my point, when Lelouch said the line "Do you really want to die with such a face!?" (or something like that), it seems he firmly believes that C.C. will definitely die during that process, and he saw C.C.'s past completely, unlike the GP version we got. If she was just going to become mortal after the ritual, then he would not comment like he did. Heck, he might even do it to C.C. himself, then just convince her not to kill herself afterwards.

Also, what would be the point of showing that the ritual was interrupted when C.C. saved Lelouch if the result was going to be the same (meaning becoming mortal, maybe memory reversion)?

At the frame in 18:23, it looks like C.C. was the one beaten, rather than the Nun, who only has a small pool of blood around her head. C.C. loved her, in the same was Mao loved C.C. Up until that point, no one had ever treated C.C. kindly. Still, she learned that the Nun didn't really care, and had only been lying to her. I can see how that can be taken into motivation that C.C. would kill the Nun from that sense of betrayal. However, the peaceful look on the Nun's face leads me to believe she took a way out as quickly as possible. Before experiencing several hundred years of life, I do not think C.C. had it in her to kill anyone. She's become fairly innocent now, incredibly meek and submissive as one would expect of a slave, a far cry from her normal, hardened self who prefers to dominate and tease those around her. She was still living the peaceful, carefree life she had never had as a slave. C.C. looks like she's been severely raped and beaten, a mix of pain and grief.

As Lucifus pointed out, V.V. was alive at the time he gave Charles the Code. C.C. talked to V.V.'s dying body (killed in the attack by Lelouch and Cornelia, et al.) wondering why Charles took it now.

As for the, "Do you really want to die with such a face!?" line, I believe Lelouch said that because he had seen how sad C.C. looked as Charles was about to take her Code and then end her life as she supposedly wished. C.C. had been lying to Lelouch the entire time in order to protect him, and she has done that before as well. Lelouch didn't really care if C.C. truly wanted to die, but he didn't think that she truly wanted to. It was not her wish, she wanted something else, to not die sad and lonely, without actually experiencing being "loved."

The loss of memory is an unanticipated side effect of the ritual being interrupted, mortality would be the only actual symptom otherwise. V.V. had all of his, the Nun most likely had hers to still remember all the reasons she wanted to kill herself.

EDIT:
I see that you said some of my arguments better than I did.

[shinta|hikari]

I am no longer sure what happened when V.V. encountered Charles for the last time. If he indeed no longer had the code when Charles said that his brother was lying to him, then that proves that killing is not a prerequisite for succession. I don't have the episode, so if someone can check for me I would appreciate it.

I kind of get the scenario you are painting with C.C. and the nun, and I must say it is quite convincing. If the nun forced C.C. to do the ritual by beating the shit out of her (right after the nun went all Nina-face on C.C.), then proceeded to kill herself once this was over, the weird scene would make sense.

I am more inclined to agree with Lucifus regarding the memory loss of C.C. It just seems odd that she can run to the panel, and save Lelouch when her memory was already gone. The progression of events seemed to hint at the destruction of the structure as the cause of this "side effect".

[David75]

For Lelouch's Geass, pay attention to the fact that the thought elevator scenes are very different from those outside.

I think the thought elevator is some kind of virtual world were your mind goes and meets others. Your body is there as an image that is easier to deal with.

I checked the image before he gets there, he had his contact on, you can't see his geass (end of ep 14)
Then at the end of ep 15, you can't see his geass either.

The scenes when he uses his geass in the thought elevator are different, everything that happens there is in a mind/virtual reality.

[Buffalobiian]

One thing that popped up in my head after reading all those posts is the way Geass manifests. My take on it is:

-Single eye has Geass, able to turn it off.
-If one is unable to control the Geass, it becomes permanently activated. Still one eye.
- If the Geass gets stronger, it manifests itself in both eyes (C.C, Mao). If one has the potential to be King though, they can control it still (Charles).

Lelouch probably couldn't kill C.C. anyway since his wasn't powerful enough yet(Lucifus mentioned this too?). It may also tie in as to why C.C. warned him when he got the contacts.


I'm thinking....."Sword of Akasha" is the Greek style temple, and the "Thought Elevator" is the cog/face world that Lelouch was in? What about the World of C? Was that Lelouch exploring C.C's memories using the Thought Elevator? All these damn questions, and with C.C.'s memories wiped, they probably won't be addressed next episode either.

Regarding why Lelouch would put on his contacts, I agree with the idea that at least a little time passed after they got out of the elevator. Plus, Lelouch said he called his subordinates or something, so he had every reason to put his contacts back in.

Edit: took too long, David posted before me. Interesting thought about the virtual world. I might just buy that idea after confirming it myself.

[David75]

Yes to me the thought elevator is a mind/virtual place because everything is controlled by thought.
At first you think it's a real world because every interaction you have with the place is based on what your brain would like to do, and the place adapts everything.

At some point Lelouch says himself that everything is controlled by thought there, he then understands that this place is virtual.

Then Lelouch goes a little further in virtuality when he enters C.C.'s mind and memories, at that moment the virtuality is made more obvious on screen.

The thought elevator is to be seen as a device that elevates your mind.
After all Charles aim is to kill the Gods, so he needs some kind of enlightment or spiritual enhancer to fight at the level of Gods.

I may be wrong though

[Splash!]

From C.C's scene with the nun, it seems that the immortality transferring ritual ends up taking the life of the previous immortal.
I am assuming that Charles performed this ritual on V.V to gain his code. However, V.V did not die instantly like the nun.

I think that the process of transferring immortality involves the code on the body of the immortal being forcefully 'ripped' out. In the case of C.C and the nun, it would end up taking their life because the code is printed on their forehead. I think the pool of blood next to the nun's head is an important hint at this.

But I don't think taking V.V's directly killed him. C.C said, "Charles, why did you have to take V.V's code at this point in time?" Since V.V was injured from the battle, stealing his immortality at that point meant he no longer could survive his injuries, which is what I believe killed him.

So my guess is that the incomplete code transfer process between Charles and C.C resulted in brain damage in the form of amnesia for her rather than a total brain explosion.

There is one thing I don't understand though. Why did C.C have to wait for Charles to obtain her wish to die? If Charles, already being an immortal, was able to take C.C's code, then why couldn't V.V have taken it too? Unless of course Charles had disallowed V.V from taking it.

On another note, I like how the name of the series finally makes complete sense now.

[KrayZ33]

I am no longer sure what happened when V.V. encountered Charles for the last time. If he indeed no longer had the code when Charles said that his brother was lying to him, then that proves that killing is not a prerequisite for succession. I don't have the episode, so if someone can check for me I would appreciate it.

Charles took the "code" when V.V. was seriously wounded and when he said "you lied to me again"... which led to his death in the end.
If he hadn't taken the code then, he would have survived Lelouchs attack. However since, he lost immortality when Charles took the code he died as a result of his wounds.

btw I personally believe that Charles wants to be the last "Geass Master" or "Geass User" in the world
He "killed" V.V. (by taking his code) to show C.C. that he is capable of killing "Geass Masters" now... this got C.C.'s attention which is why she appeared in front of Lelouch and Charles.

I kind of get the scenario you are painting with C.C. and the nun, and I must say it is quite convincing. If the nun forced C.C. to do the ritual by beating the shit out of her (right after the nun went all Nina-face on C.C.), then proceeded to kill herself once this was over, the weird scene would make sense.

well I don't think that the nun has beaten her to near death... if you watch closley, her throat and belly were ripped open (jugded by the amount of blood comming out). Those are not wounds you suffer from getting beaten up by fists.... hmm maybe she tried to kill herself after the ritual has been made, since she has noone who truely "loves" her anymore and discovered that she is immortal and can't die......or so

I am more inclined to agree with Lucifus regarding the memory loss of C.C. It just seems odd that she can run to the panel, and save Lelouch when her memory was already gone. The progression of events seemed to hint at the destruction of the structure as the cause of this "side effect".

yes it must be an unwanted side effect either caused by the destruction of the "Sword of XXXXXX" or by the hasty completion of the ritual (with Lelouch,*NOT* with Charles), because both V.V. and the nun didn't lose their memories after the ritual

and I still wonder what happened when Lelouch took C.C.'s arm... I blieve it was a kiss :P

and also how it was possible for Charles to take over the code without killing V.V.
(he didn't gain immortality by killing him)

what I also still don't get 100% is what happens to the geass...
it seems to dissappear once you kill your master, then again killing your master isn't necessary to take over the code, so the code can be taken away in some other way... which makes me believe that it can be done also by the fulfillment of the contract.

Charles did also say "I gained immortality in *exchange* of my geass"
it sounds more like a trade has been made.

[Splash!]

well I don't think that the nun has beaten her to near death... if you watch closley, her throat and belly were ripped open (jugded by the amount of blood comming out). Those are not wounds you suffer from getting beaten up by fists.... hmm maybe she tried to kill herself after the ritual has been made, since she has noone who truely "loves" her anymore and discovered that she is immortal and can't die......or so

It is interesting to note that C.C is clutching her chest in that scene. To me it seems that the same ritual between C.C and Charles also took place between C.C and the nun.

During the ritual, C.C placed her hand on Charles' chest in a way that indicates that it was part of the ritual. Charles, the acceptor of the code was willing in this case. C.C, the acceptor in the nun case, was not willing to receive the code. I can only imagine that during the process, the nun tight clutched onto C.C's chest, possibly even digging her nails into her. C.C on the other hand, unwilling to receive the code, was violently struggling to break free and get away from the nun during the entire ritual.

Also, the nun seems to have a pool of blood next to her head with no visible injuries. It's possible that there is an injury at the back of her head but I think its more likely it is some sort of brain implosion as a result of removing the code.

[KrayZ33]

that sounds horribly brutal ^^

it seems to be the case that the code is "ripped out" of the body... at least I don't know how to explain C.C.'s reaction to V.V.'s body when he showed her his bloody shoulder.

but I don't think that C.C's hand on Charles chest is part of the ritual, in my opinion it symbolised rejection...

maybe the ritual includes a kiss(?? well at least the pose looked like that), and C.C. could keep Charles to a certain distance and stop him from closing in too much.
Her other wish was to be truely loved by someone, since charles does only want to kiss her because he had to do it, she started to feel uneasy about it and maybe thats also the reason why she pushed him away, she didn't want to die without having felt the feeling of true love once.

maybe it reminded her of her past, when everyone was just "faking" the affection and love towards her

by the way, Code Geass threads are good for farming bad reps for some reason.

[Buffalobiian]

it seems to be the case that the code is "ripped out" of the body... at least I don't know how to explain C.C.'s reaction to V.V.'s body when he showed her his bloody shoulder.

From what I remember, V.V's code was never on his forehead. Hence, when C.C. said that she's cursed with immortality, and he says otherwise, she immediately checks his now-removed code, to find it gone.

As for the Emperor's words, I believe what he means is that "As of becoming a Geass Master, I (had to) relinquish my Geass for a new power (immortality)."

He never really touched on the killing part.

[animus]

What's with the "You must not lie" pact between Charles and V2?

[Buffalobiian]

What's with the "You must not lie" pact between Charles and V2?

It's what V.V. made Charles promise for giving him the power of Geass. C.C. simply asked for Lelouch to grant her wish. I don't know what happens when you break the pact though.

[MFauli]

Wow, VV was a guy? In one of the last episodes i already wondered about the subtitle, but now i cleary heard oni-san. WTF, didnt look like a boy at all. sick

Also, less talk about Geass, more about Orenji-kun:
Did he really have his next change of heart ALREADY? "Your loyality to royality was pure to the end. Im going to avenge you".
These rushed developments are a little bit ridiculous.

And damn Suzaku for beating Karen.

[Buffalobiian]

Also, less talk about Geass, more about Orenji-kun:
Did he really have his next change of heart ALREADY? "Your loyality to royality was pure to the end. Im going to avenge you".
These rushed developments are a little bit ridiculous.

Is that what gg translated it as? Eclipse's version used "But your loyalty to royalty was genuine. Therefore, I will revere you."

It makes more sense.