Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[Ryllharu]

Only if the Geass works exactly the same way Lelouch's does, damaging (or rewiring) the brain as it works, then it might be possible to become "immune."

We already know that multiple memory-style Geass abilities can be used on the same person. Lelouch himself. He Geassed himself during his final encounter with Mao in order to protect his plan involving Suzaku saving Nunnally and then rescuing Lelouch. Lelouch couldn't remember his own plan or Mao would have seen through Lelouch's acting. Then the Emperor overwrote Lelouch's memories when Suzaku dragged him before the Emperor.

So it's still very possible that Kallen could get brain-wiped Total Recall style.

There are only two (maybe three now) people we've met who are immune to Geass abilities. C.C., V.V. and perhaps now Orange-kun. They all grant the Geass abilities (or are synthetic copies of those who do), and cannot be affected.

EDIT:

@Kraco:

I would love to see an elaborate plotline where Kallen "escaped" in some amazing fashion, only to entrench herself as a spy. Cliche, sure, but still fun. There would be little way for Lelouch to know that she was lying, and since he long ago used the Geass on her, he could not check to see if she had been turned. Then we might have a long, drawn out, cat-and-mouse game like we were all hoping to see with Rollo and Viletta vs. Lelouch.

Still, I think that if anything, it is more likely Suzaku would return her to that Academy as a brainwashed Kallen Stadfeldt. Despite Rivalz, Shirley and Milly knowing that she was an open member of the Black Knights. Suzaku would be that much of an asshole if the Emperor went along with it.

[Board of Command]

Or they can have it happen in each episode...?

That would be just perfect.

[Inazuma]

Lelouch geassed Suzaku, with "Live ! " as an order.
What if the King geassed him with " Die ! " as an order ?

What would happen ? Do Geasses stacks ? What if they conflict ?

[Buffalobiian]

Lelouch geassed Suzaku, with "Live ! " as an order.
What if the King geassed him with " Die ! " as an order ?

What would happen ? Do Geasses stacks ? What if they conflict ?

This is where the confusion lay.

The Emporer overwrites memories, he doesn't give orders. His Geass functions differently from Lelouch's. So far, we haven't encountered two people with the same Geass, so from what we know, no.

[Everon]

This is where the confusion lay.

The Emporer overwrites memories, he doesn't give orders. His Geass functions differently from Lelouch's. So far, we haven't encountered two people with the same Geass, so from what we know, no.

Both geass powers deal with concepts of memory and will. They are virtually the same thing. After all, Lelouch was able to erase Shirley's memories with the command "Forget everything about me." Just as Lelouch is able to alter memory, I imagine the Emperor could bend people to his will through roundabout methods.

For example, theoretically the Emperor could rewrite Suzaku's "live" command by altering his memory about that moment. Instead of Zero shouting "Live," he could rewrite him saying something like "Die"

There are a lot of details we don't know about -- the restrictions for the emperor or how geass powers ineract with each other -- debating the nitty-gritty right now is kind of pointless :P

[Buffalobiian]

They are similar, but distinctly different. If we're talking about both having the ability to give a command, Lelouch's is in the form of an undeniable order. The Emperor's however, is simply a memory. For example, he could overwrite Kallen's mind and make her remember the Emperor ordered her to assassinate Zero. She'll remember this, but doesn't have to follow it.

Using your example of rewriting someone's mind, say Suzaku, with a memory of Zero issuing a "die" command will yield similar results. Suzaku will remember Zero saying "Die", but he won't die unless he wants to.

In actual fact, Suzaku doesn't remember Zero giving him the Live order at all. Right after the event, he was still confused at why he disobeyed Schneizel's orders. As much as it is a concrete fact that Lelouch's Geass only works once because it damages the brain, it renders the recipient unable to remember the encounter. Suzaku deduced that the order was to live by himself, and probably through his talk with V.V.

Also, don't forget, the last time we were told about this, Suzaku still wants to die in battle to atone himself. "Live" is saving him against his wish.

[Inazuma]

I think the geasses are the same.

Lelouch already used his to alter memories. " Forget all about that ! "
Et the Emperor could have just said something like " Live as a normal Britanian student together with your brother Rollo without worrying of anything else. "

[KrayZ33]

well he wouldn't be Zero now if the emperor said "Live as a normal britanian student" because he won't be able to resist the command if his geass is like that of Lelouch

unless shirley will remember what happened back in the past, it can't be the same geass...at least the power/effect is slightly different

if shirley however remembers everything again... then thats a different story

[Buffalobiian]

I think the geasses are the same.

Lelouch already used his to alter memories. " Forget all about that ! "
Et the Emperor could have just said something like " Live as a normal Britanian student together with your brother Rollo without worrying of anything else. "

Like KrayZ33 (I'm calling you KrayZ from now on ), Lelouch wouldn't be where he is now if he followed the Emperor's, "order" as you put it. It's simply a memory. He still has it, but he's recovered the overwritten ones upon contact with C.C.

Lelouch's and the Emperor's Geass are different. The Emperor can erase and write false memories and that only. Lelouch's issues commands. Commanding them to forget, or you will tell everyone you remembered this is only one application of his Geass, and not representative of its power itself, which I've stated above. Two things having the same or similar effect doesn't make them similar.

[Ryllharu]

I explained this on the last page. The two Geass's can be used in a similar way, but the method is completely different.

Clarification added:

Lelouch can Geass people only once. The Emperor can [use his own] geass people as well, but it is not the same as Lelouch's, doesn't work the same way. I imagine if the Emperor was really creative, he could make his work the same way Lelouch's does through some really fucked up memory manipulation, which would render anyone it was used on totally useless afterward. But he obviously takes the more subtle approach.

The Emperor could theoretically warp someone's memory from the very beginning of their childhood to hate someone so completely they would kill them out of revenge, but afterward, they'd be so completely useless there would be no point. Lelouch on the other hand, simply orders them to do whatever task he wishes. There's no way the Emperor could give complicated orders like "At exactly 00:00 Tuesday morning, execute the purge command and drop all the supports on the eastern sector of the settlement."

Conversely, while Lelouch can order Shirley to forget him and everything that occurred between them, he cannot restructure memories in the highly detailed way the Emperor can. That's why Shirley felt so violated by Zero last season. She knew there was this enormous gap in her memories, and had nothing at all to fill it with.

[shinta|hikari]

Wait, can't Lelouch falsify memories using his geass? If it is an absolute order geass, he should be able to order the person to believe what he wants them to believe, including any fake memories he wishes to implant.

[Ryllharu]

Well, Lelouch's Geass does have one side affect. The affected tends not to remember the period they were under the effects (receiving the orders and carrying them out). We've seen it with nearly everyone he's done it to, Kallen, Orange-kun, Viletta, his history teacher, Cornelia, etc.

While Lelouch could say "I order you to remember the time you fell on top of me while C.C. was watching and I didn't immediately rape you," or, "You've always hated our father because you saw him murder my mother," there wouldn't be any substance to the memories.

It would be like someone telling you about how delivered their baby when you were blacked-out drunk. Sure, you'd "know" it was "true" (the baby exists//Marianne is dead), but it wouldn't seem real, more like a very descriptive story you heard from someone else. You might be able to imagine yourself being in a memory Lelouch forced on as an order.

Charles (the Emperor) uses his Geass to actually give real memories to people. Lelouch still remembers all the Nunnally like experiences with Rollo. He was disgusted with all of them after he remembered the truth, but before C.C. kissed him, they were as vivid as the memories of playing with Euphie and Nunnally in the flower gardens of his mother's estate. They have substance, you really were there.

[shinta|hikari]

But in the end such substance does not really matter much compared to the actual belief that it happened. Even actual memories fade and change gradually over time, and in the end the only thing that remains are not the images but the facts, stuff that Lelouch can fake by using his command geass, and therefore alter the person completely, almost as much as the emperor.

If there is a significant edge the emperor has over Lelouch, I think it is the possibility that he might be able to read into the memories of those he victimizes with his geass. After all, you can't really edit memories without knowing the original.

[Yukimura]

Remembering something and simply knowing that it happened are definitely not the same. What Lelouch should be able to accomplish with a command would be akin to blocking the truth and inserting alternative facts about an event, much like a person who had lost their memory of an event and then had the details of the event described back to them. When you show an amnesia victim video of their wedding they don't feel anything connecting themselves to the event. They can't deny that it happened since they're seeing it replayed, but the meaning just isn't there because they don't feel anything that connects them to the person they see experiencing the events in the video. Without that connection something like the love Lelouch felt for Rolo as his brother wouldn't have come about. He might have known, this is my brother, we've done this that and the other thing together, but his mind wouldn't have produced the feelings associated with those thoughts unless they were accompanied by memories of experiences and previous feelings to build on.

While clearly not perfect, the Emperor's ability seems much more complete in terms of memory injection. It can be inferred that it includes false information from all the senses to comprise the false experiences, not just false knowledge of the occurance of events. Lelouch didn't just remember he went to the park with Rolo, he remembered how it looked, and hearing Rolo's voice. I would assume there would have also been other sensory clues implanted/altered like smells and tastes and feelings as well. Flashes of how the grass felt or how bright the sun was on his skin are things that would remind him that he had truly experienced the events rather than just imagining them. I don't think simply obeying an order can impart anywhere near the same sort of experience (and thus induce the same sort of behavior) that a real memory would unless the order was specific enough to create some associated feelings and enough random sensory memories to build a reasonable facsimile of a vaguely remembered event.

[shinta|hikari]

I never disagreed with that. What I am trying to point out is that in terms of practicality, which in this case is about the effectiveness of geass in manipulating people, Lelouch's geass seems to be more powerful. You should know that it is much easier to simply command a person to do something or to make them think that they wish to do something than trying to induce certain behavior by memory alteration.

EDIT: I also think that the emperor can make finer details with regards to memory alteration, but Lelouch can duplicate anything that he can do with his own geass in one way or another, which makes it seem that Lelouch's power is a step above, at least from what we know as of now.

[David75]

You could consider it's a bit off-topic...
Regarding how memory works:
it's a mix of image, smell, sound, temperature, touch etc....

Ho do you know that?
Sometimes smelling a particular flower makes you remember some specific events.

Seing a particular color or shape

Earing some music and so on.

It's an over simplifaction, but memory is packed with senses states of the time. There are also feelings and trains of thoughts and so on.

Then there's another active part in the memory process.
For some reason, everyone has their way of modifying their memory.
I guess by now you're old enough to remark that for certain memories, clearly what you remember or want to remember is a tad different from what actually happened.
Sometimes the modifications are over details, are modifying the memories into good ones, bad ones. Modifying them for enhancing the image you have of yourself or the contrary.
Also, you're sometimes able to create a very detailed picture of an event that had strong impression on you, but for other of same magnitude you can only speak about how you felt.

Where do I want to go:
Memories aren't reliable, they evolve, brain can create or compensate for missing details.

So for example if the Emperor Geasses Lelouch, telling him Rollo is his brother, quite quickly Lelouch's brain can create complete sets of memories that will fill in the blanks in every ways the memory works:
Senses, feelings and so on.

[shinta|hikari]

Good point. That makes more sense than the emperor actually dissecting the memory and altering it down to the finer details. But that would mean that the emperor's geass is even weaker than I imagined.

[Kraco]

So for example if the Emperor Geasses Lelouch, telling him Rollo is his brother, quite quickly Lelouch's brain can create complete sets of memories that will fill in the blanks in every ways the memory works:
Senses, feelings and so on.

That would cause quite a few problems, though, because without definite details Lelouch's and Rollo's "memories" would be quite mismatched. Some mismatching is to be expected because people remember things differently all the time, mainly serving their own needs and preferences, but some things, very hard to predict things maybe, still need to match.

[Ryllharu]

I never disagreed with that. What I am trying to point out is that in terms of practicality, which in this case is about the effectiveness of geass in manipulating people, Lelouch's geass seems to be more powerful.

Good point. That makes more sense than the emperor actually dissecting the memory and altering it down to the finer details. But that would mean that the emperor's geass is even weaker than I imagined.

I had thought we were discussing the methods by which the two Geasses could be used to achieve the same goal, since Inazuma believed they were the same type. I guess that somehow shifted to how capable it made Lelouch and the Emperor at manipulating people. That would be the only way their abilities cross over.

Addressing your second point:
Not at all. If anything, the Emperor's Geass is much stronger. It's far more insidious in the way it manipulates people. Lelouch can order people all he wants, but it never has the capacity to truly affect free will. Orange-kun and Viletta both obeyed his orders simply enough...and immediately proceeded to hunt him down with absolute prejudice. Euphie shrugged off his order at least twice, out of love for Suzaku.

With enough imagination, the Emperor can rewrite someone from the beginning for all we know, and change their motivations entirely. He circumvented Lelouch's anger.

He could reprogram Kallen into someone who had her every wish granted by the Britannian father, thinking her real mother was some Japanese whore who only did drugs and never gave her anything, unlike her doting step-mother. And she'd come out as spoiled, selfish, and elitist as all the Britannians she hates. Or he could make her believe she was borderline nobility, and her some young officer noticed her ability, and through hard training in the military, she granted a position among the Knights of Round. He could take Cornelia, devastated by the loss of her sister, and turn her around into a flowery copy of her now-dead sister. Sure, others close to them might notice so severe a change, but lo and behold, a five minute meeting with the Emperor ("What a privilege!") and now everyone remembers them that way, as he did with the Student Council and Nunnally.

With the right stimulus, the Emperor can change who people are, permanently.

[David75]

I had thought we were discussing the methods by which the two Geasses could be used to achieve the same goal, since Inazuma believed they were the same type. I guess that somehow shifted to how capable it made Lelouch and the Emperor at manipulating people. That would be the only way their abilities cross over.

Addressing your second point:
Not at all. If anything, the Emperor's Geass is much stronger. It's far more insidious in the way it manipulates people. Lelouch can order people all he wants, but it never has the capacity to truly affect free will. Orange-kun and Viletta both obeyed his orders simply enough...and immediately proceeded to hunt him down with absolute prejudice. Euphie shrugged off his order at least twice, out of love for Suzaku.

With enough imagination, the Emperor can rewrite someone from the beginning for all we know, and change their motivations entirely. He circumvented Lelouch's anger.

He could reprogram Kallen into someone who had her every wish granted by the Britannian father, thinking her real mother was some Japanese whore who only did drugs and never gave her anything, unlike her doting step-mother. And she'd come out as spoiled, selfish, and elitist as all the Britannians she hates. Or he could make her believe she was borderline nobility, and her some young officer noticed her ability, and through hard training in the military, she granted a position among the Knights of Round. He could take Cornelia, devastated by the loss of her sister, and turn her around into a flowery copy of her now-dead sister. Sure, others close to them might notice so severe a change, but lo and behold, a five minute meeting with the Emperor ("What a privilege!") and now everyone remembers them that way, as he did with the Student Council and Nunnally.

With the right stimulus, the Emperor can change who people are, permanently.

I guess your memories are part of what you are. It's difficult to know how much it is though.
The experiment is totally impossible, but I wonder to which extent totally changing peoples memories affect who they are.
I guess that people with amnesia are the closest example, but I can't remember exactly if there's a major change in who those people are, bar the total stranger they can become to their relatives, and the fact they are alone knowing no one anymore.

So I wonder if by totally rewriting one's memories, it's possible to change how they react, their character and so on.

@Kraco:
It's true that you need to have some consistences. Rollo is there to help in the process in our case. And since the academy has also been Geassed, The blank filling process (for emotions, senses) is based on the same core memory rewrites I guess.