Are we sure Suzaku was fully aware when he stabbed his father?
Lelouch never wanted to use his Geass against Nunally, but we don't even know wether it works against blind people... After all Lelouch needs direct eye contact.
Are we sure Suzaku was fully aware when he stabbed his father?
Lelouch never wanted to use his Geass against Nunally, but we don't even know wether it works against blind people... After all Lelouch needs direct eye contact.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelingsOriginally Posted by DDBen
According to definition 1) Lelouche is a hypocrite and Suzaku is not. According to Definition 2) Suzaku is a hypocrite, and Lelouche is not.
Now, what's bothering me is the different standards being applied to the two. Most people seem to say Lelouche is not a hypocrite because he's consitant within himself. He's not lying to himself, despite lying to others. He gets so much respect for that as a character. No one is crediting Suzaku for being the exact same way. Suzaku believes in not shedding blood. A person who truly believes in the value of life and shed blood, does not idly stand by while another sheds blood. He gets in the way of that person. He shed's that person's blood if necessary. Suzaku has 2 choices, let Lelouche do what he's doing, or stop him. Suzaku's goal is to create a just world, much like lelouche, with the exception that Suzaku seeks to minimize the blood shed in the process. Unfortunately, because of Lelouche's rebellion, that means stopping Lelouche. You give one way Suzaku/Lelouce is a hypocrite, I give you a way Suzaku/Lelouche is not.
We don't know Suzaku thought his father deserved to die. We only know he killed him to stop him. If there was another way, he might've done it. He doesn't view Brittania as a personal messiah, or else he wouldn't be trying to change it from the inside, which is his stated goal. I'm not sure what you mean by "reasonable part of the loyal opposition". But he's certainly no more batty than Lelouche.
Okey, cool that you make up your own meaning to what hypocrisy is, me, I'd rather go for the dictionary version, since it's correct and your's IS NOT.
"a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess."
"a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude."
Note in the second one that Lelouch doesn't have a publically desirable "attitude", what he has is the intellect to support the people, he just doesn't let on everything he knows and wants to do. Lelouch has never been a hypocrite. Now I'm not gonna go much deeper into this, since you Barles are bashing out your own thoughts without even reading what another person says, focusing on the part in their posts where you actually think you have leverage, when in fact you don't.
So I second what DDBen said and will now walk away from this debate about hypocrisy, which you so clearly know very little about. It's a big word for some people, I know.
We don't know if Suzaku thought his father deserved to die? Is that a question to ask? He killed his father because he did not agree with him... And he was 10 years old. Let me make it clear to you. No one, and I do mean NO ONE at the age of 10 kills their parents unless their mental health has a big warning sign over their head stating "CYCO" (yes I use that spelling, it's taken from a band and it is deliberatly). So, it's not a matter of wether he deserved to die, it's a matter of how much of a cyco Suzaku is and how much he is trying to hide that fact.
Suzaku's will is law, and he is a puppet under the emperor.
@Uchiha - Suzaku became as you describe because of Euphie's death. Before that, he was a fucking hypocrite. Now he is less that, and more of a fucking asshole.
And in your definition number 1, both of them are hypocrites.
And you know, there is no way to convince your father to stop what he is doing, except uh, stab and kill him.
God I'm glad that is you user name.
@Shinji - while I hate Suzaku to the bone, he is not as bad as you describe. We have to accept that so that we can cut him where it counts, and deeply.
Peace.
I don't know why but Kallen is nothing more than a sex object for me with all the fanservice about her.
Is there a episode yet where she doesn't show her ass or boobs yet? They could do it at least in a more appealing way like they did with C.C. @ the container where she sat on the handrail.. Season 2 is really very much about fanservice 8[
Well its not that I dislike to see C.C, Shirley or even Kallen (especially the first 2) but it is a bit too much right now,especially with Kallen...
and I lol'd in RL when C.C and Lelouch where talking aboutV.V. as a male character...I thought it was a little girl
btw did C.C. shrunk herself when she fell on the pizza-pastry?? Or was it meant to look like she gets sucked into it?.. Her arms/legs simply everything shrinked when she bounced on it. And was she cosplaying that robot-girl from Negimagi? (poor C.C. getting thrown into a container full of tomatoes)
Last edited by KrayZ33; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 08:07 AM.
Yuki and I already called her Chachamaru on this thread.And was she cosplaying that robot-girl from Negimagi? (poor C.C. getting thrown into a container full of tomatoes
Fanservice aside, this episode did well in providing comedy relief and a nice big trap set up at the same time. Hypocrite or not, you have to agree that Suzaku isn't just the strong headed solder he was in Season 1. Now as Knight of Seven, he's learned to not only use his opponent's weakness against him, he's learned to use his position to call upon more manpower in the form of two fellow Knights of Round.
Though more of an asshole, we can finally see more strategic battles between Lelouch and Suzaku rather than purely the Brain vs Brawn scenario we had for most of last season.
And it seems Milly misses Lloyd, while we can't be sure the reverse is true.
edit: Did anyone get an encoding boogie @19:17 Eclipse version?
Last edited by Buffalobiian; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 08:48 AM.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Another great episode. Too great. Looks like things are just gonna get harder for Lelouch. He needs a break.
<3 Tessa-chan! <3 Lucifus! ....chotto mate.
Getting a little catty there aren't we? wow...Anyway, the definitions I posted in my posts are in fact from the merriam-webster online dictionary, merriam-webster being one of the trusted name-brands among dictionaries. It's no MY definition at all. Taking credit for something like that, I think is plagiarism. Second of all, I read both your posts thoroughly. And you are correct, I focus on the part of your argument where I have leverage, the reason being, I think your argument is wrong, and focusing where I think the logical flaw is (i.e. where I leverage) is EXACTLY how one is supposed to counter argue. You really ought to try to do the same with my posts, if you actually care to argue or show why you're right and I'm wrong. These arguments are supposed to fun, no need to get catty about it. I suppose you did use leverage, in saying my definitions were my own and not from a dictionary. It's also the only "leverage" you tried to use. Now that you know better, wanna try again?
Concerning your argument about Suzaku, I can't really argue against it, because you're probably right about him not being all sane. Ok...Neither's Lelouche. If Suzaku is willing to kill his dad at ten to achieve what he thinks is right, that makes not sane. Well, Leloche has been planning his rebellion ever since he was discarded from his family. That was like, what, when he was 8? No sane person is willing to Sacrifice and manipulate an entire people for personal gain, no matter the actual ends. If you end up saying the ends justify the means, then the ends that Suzaku tried to achieve justified his means. Be fair with the standards you use to render judgement.
Well, the reason I said Suzaku wasn't a hypocrite according to definition 1), it's because I actually believe that he has this virtue, the ideals, and is trying as best he can to uphold them in the face of war. Just because you're against bloodshed, doesn't mean you sit with your hands tucked away while everyone's dying around you. You can't really blame someone for killing a ruthless revolutionary and fighting his soldiers to do so, in an effort to stop the bloodshed. As far as him becoming what I said he was after Euphie died (I'm still in utter shock as to how that happened btw..that was genius), I think Euphie made him get real serious about it. Remember at the end of Season 1, he said he suspected for quite awhile that Lelouche was in fact Zero? I think he was the same, but just more serious after Euphies death, and him finding out about Geass, which also pissed him off to hell.
Last edited by Uchiha Barles; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 10:56 AM.
Idk, these last two episodes have been pretty lackluster at best for me. Sure the cliffhangers are pretty good, but the "we'll keep playing the S1 card and you'll watch it" this is starting to get annoying.
Oh well at least we got to see C.C's ass:
15% of the people that watch this show watch it for her anyway...
R.I.P Captain America.
Lol, you didn't make a screenshot of her panties when she fell into the container? Thats low! I already got a life size poster of it
btw why is it that Code Geass mechas are so damn colourful? The new Mecha showed this episode could have been so great in a simple dark or grey with red eyes..
but noo it had red/blue/pink/white/yellow and what-not in it
@Uchiha - its funny how you give a lecture on argumentation and completely ignore my post (that is addressed to you BTW) that attacks the mistakes in your argument.
C.C. is only more than half the reason I watch code geass, so I am not part of that minority yet.
Peace.
Lol, I noticed your post, I was just a bit annoyed at the guy I responded to and I forgot to respond to you. I went back and edited my post to respond to your while you were writing this one.
You must have a very loose understanding of virtue then. Preaching against bloodshed while killing people is a fundamental contradiction. You may give the example of police who are sometimes forced to take the lives of criminals in the interest of protecting innocents, but Suzaku's case is clearly nothing of the sort. Please do not forget who he works for, as well as what they make/made him do.
What makes him a hypocrite is the fact that he thinks his way (this way) is much better, despite it being on the exact same level. He puts on a "false appearance of virtue", when he actually does not have it, as much as Lelouch does not have it in this sense. Your understanding of the very definition you posted is weak. It does not matter if he believes in it himself, or if you believe in Suzaku on any level.
When Euphie died, he stopped pretending as much as he did, and he openly admitted that he wanted to kill Zero for revenge (something he would have never admitted before Euphie's death since it blatantly contradicts his own as well as Euphie's ideals). He even sold Lelouch to the emperor, something this "virtue" you speak of should not allow. There is a fundamental change in Suzaku's outlook. It is not simply about being more serious.
Peace.
I can clarify how I understand Suzaku's virtue with an example. Imagine a regular guy, we'll call Jake, who has this belief that bloodshed is wrong. Now Jake lives in a village, and his villagers are all defenseless. So, some murderer comes in, and starts slaughtering them. Jake wants to stop the murderer, but doesn't want to shed blood. So, Jake puts on some heavy armor, and stands in between the villagers and murderer. The murderers attacks are useless against Jake, and Jake stands there till the murderers done. Cute, ain't it? If Jake does not try to stop the murderer, and allows the bloodshed, he is a hypocrite.
Now, lets put the constraints that one would expect of reality. Jake's armor would have to be REAL heavy to be able to withstand all the murderers attacks if the murderer came properly equipped to murder. The murderer has two choices now, see if he can maneuver around Jake to get to the villagers, or leave, and come back with better weapons. The better the weapons, the heavier Jake's armor has to be to stop the weapons. Eventually, the murderer will be able to maneuver around Jake. It becomes clear that Jake cannot simply stand between the murderer and the villagers forever.
Jake has another option. He can simply subdue the murderer. Think about actual combat for a second. If you're in a fight, and you want to subdue your opponent, who is trying to kill you, there has to be a large differential in fighting ability between you and your opponent, and it has to favor you, because in subduing and not killing, you limit the offenses and defenses you're allowing to use, while your opponent is not. Otherwise, you get killed and you fail at subduing the opponent. If Jake has the odds stacked in his favor, great. But if he doesn't, he cannot subdue the opponent, and he will die. If Jake understands this, then he is a hypocrite to allow himself to die, because his death will not stop the bloodshed.
Jake has one last option. He can kill the murderer. This is easier than the other two, because the power it requires is less than the other two, and it may sometimes be impossible to acquire the power necessary for the other two options. You kill the murderer, the bloodshed stops with his own. If Jake knows the death of the murderer will stop the bloodshed, but Jake does not kill him (this being his best option after ruling out the other two for lack of power), then Jake is a hypocrite, and a coward might I add.
Now, let me remind you, Suzaku, while he said he was going into combat to kill Zero, he did not kill Zero. He in fact actually succeeded in subduing Zero, had all the opportunity in the world to kill him, but didn't. Instead, he tried to make good of a bad situation by using Zero to try and make his own vision of things come true. This turning in of Zero is in keeping with EVERYTHING he set out to do, exactly as he set out to do. If you say that he sold out a friend, remember, he thinks Zero maliciously used Euphie, via Geass, to slaughter Japanese, all in an effort advance his own agenda. They're no longer friends, and one who would do that, deserves death. Suzaku's ideals required that Zero be brought in. He did not act on the anger he showed when he said "I'm in this to kill zero". He acted consistantly with his ideals. In fact, look at what's happening right now. If Zero was gone, he'd have proceeded to choosing Japan as his protectorate, and ruling them justly under Brittania after he became knight 1 or whatever. He's THIS close to winning, while staying true to the very ideals he mentioned, even if they're under the constraints of reality.
One more thing. As far as has been shown, Suzaku has only killed people who raised arms against him. The people he killed, had arms raised, and if Suzaku wasn't there, they would have killed others. Suzaku's plan, without interruption from rebellion, is the best suited to minimize bloodshed. Lelouches plan is best suited to maximize it. According to the "Jake analogy" in the first few paragraphs, Suzaku can't sit by and let Zero do this.
One last edit: I do recall that Suzaku was ordered to slaughter a bunch of innocents civilians to prove his loyalty, but he never got to do it, something happened that caused him not to take part in it. So that part of his character actually never got tested. So I don't see a way to make him a hypocrite if we use the same standards that causes Lelouche to not be a hypocrite.
Last edited by Uchiha Barles; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 12:01 PM.
You don't seem to understand what the meaning of fundamental contradiction is, but I won't explain it since it will only waste time.
Your examples are pointless. His ideal is/was never what you make it out to be. Please refer to the first few episodes of geass S1, and recheck what kind of person Suzaku made himself out to be.
I think it has been established a few episode threads before that what he did to Lelouch (selling him) is worse than simply killing him for a number of reasons. Please refer to them so that you may understand.
Also, do you really think that the overpowered Lancelot does not have the capability to disable opponents without killing them? If he really had the virtue of cherishing life, he would have taken the extra mile (and a very short mile that is, since not killing the pilot is quite easy in code geass, especially with the efficient eject mechanism of the knightmares), even risking his own life to do so. Suzaku has chosen to kill numerous people just because they do not agree with his ideals (I can give you numerous examples of this so don't even try to dispute it).
True they are armed, but that does not make them "wrong", unless disagreeing with Suzaku (and his master the empire) is considered wrong. You make it sound like everyone that has died in his hands are "enemies" or "evil". Code geass is not that kind of show.
If you say you still believe the stuff you were saying, then that simply means your understanding of virtue is incredibly loose, too much that it would apply to anyone, making anyone virtuous (since each person does have a personal, usually self-righteous reason for fighting). Because of this, it is a moot point to argue about Suzaku having it.
EDIT: This is an old topic that is pointless to discuss further. Most of your arguments do not make much sense anyway, so I will stop this here for the sake of everyone in this thread. Consider this my last post about this.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 12:19 PM.
Peace.
Ok, my personal understanding of the two is that they're both hypocritical. My whole argument is based on the fact that some people say Lelouche is hypocritical, while Suzaku is not, and some say Suzaku is hypocritical, and Lelouche is not. When I look into why they think this, what I find, is that they're using different standards to judge the two, based on a personal preference for the methods of either Suzaku, or Lelouche. I'm pointing out the flip side of the coin.
As far as Suzaku is concerned when it comes to fighting the Order of the Black Knight. His enemy is that Order. And that Order has shown that it has the Capability to destroy his lancelot. When you fight under the banner of some power, you're not viewed by your enemy as a single entity separate from that Order. You are in fact, and avatar of that Order. Suzaku would be a fool to go in fighting the Order of the black knight and not try to kill, because the Order has shown power enough to kill him. Example, Kallen's Mech to me is comparable to the Lancelot. I happen to think the difference is in the abilities of the pilots. If the Lancelot gets ambushed by some random mechs of the order, who's to say Kallen isn't laying in wait around one of those corners?
As far as me not understanding the fundamental contradiction you've mentioned, I do understand it, I really do. You're against blood being shed, so you ought not shed blood. It's simple really. But, I also understand these things: If you're against the shedding of innocent blood, you ought not allow it to continue. I understand this as well: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." What you can do, is limited by the power you have. Suzaku is in a "screwed if you do, but more screwed if you don't" situation. He's a hypocrite for fighting against the Order if you consider what his ideals are? He's a bigger hypocrite if he doesn't fight them. And by the previous paragraph, if he fights them, he should fight to kill. Also, let me assure you I know what his ideals are. Create a just society by following the rules of the current power, because this minimizes bloodshed, and this is exactly what I'm making it out to be. Suzaku said this himself in season 1, which btw, I just watched in its entirety last week, it's all fresh in my mind.
As far as turning Zero in being worse than killing him, I will check those threads to see what's said in there. I suspect that all the arguments I'll find will speak to Suzaku being an ass for betraying his friend. But nonetheless, his ideal is following the rules of the kingdom, gaining power that way, and establishing a just society. Apprehending and turning in the enemy of the kingdom (Zero in this case), is consistant with that ideal. Also, I really don't see what argument is going to stand against the fact that Suzaku and Lelouche were no longer friends from the moment he thought that Lelouche used the Geass to cause Euphie to massacre the japanese, all for the sake of continuing the rebellion. But don't worry, I'm going to check those threads right now.
OMFG. I wanted this to stop but I cannot stand not replying to the nonsense above. Very short reply though.
Not fighting and not killing are two different things.
See episode 3 (or was it 2) of R2 and tell me if what Suzaku did to those obviously inferior knightmares (he said so himself) was not needless killing. It was practically a massacre, when he could have disabled them easily.
You do not understand the concept of fundamental contradiction. That means YOU CANNOT KILL if you want your ideal to remain true. What you propose is not the ideal that Suzaku originally went after (note Lancelot's first appearance - no enemy pilot was killed), but a more pragmatic version that he adopted as the show continued (which he donned while maintaining his belief of his moral high ground that would have applied initially but not later).
You are having a heyday throwing around the word hypocrite aren't you? Please don't forget to keep it in context, meaning consistent with what people meant when they said it, not what you mean by it so you can prove your point.
Check the threads. Your suspicions are wrong.
EDIT: If we agree that this is his ideal, how can you justify his actions I noted above?
EDIT: If this doesn't make you understand, nothing will (which means do not expect a reply no matter how silly your following posts become).
On a side note, and a hopeful change of topic, does Suzaku's beliefs extend to other people, or only to the Japanese? Does he even value people outside his country?
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Mon, 05-05-2008 at 12:59 PM.
Peace.
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this one. Who on earth has said that Suzaku isn't a Hypocrite aside from yourself with a completely nonsensical story about Jake?
Suzaku originally intended to be a good soldier at the very start when he ran into Lelouch in S1 at the start. Then he was used as a pawn for the death of Clovis and at that point he choose to go back to Britannia in order to follow his ideals and that good could come from changing things from within. He held fast to his ideals upto the death of Euphie. After that point he changed his methods from changing things by doing whats right to changing them by any means necessary. You can't even argue that with the scene of him going upto Italians(I think) demanding they surrender there country and then killing them for saying no. At that point there is no way at all to argue against him being a Hypocrite he's spent the last year killing innocent people to gain power for himself because he thinks nobody else can possibly manage to accomplish it.
Now Zero/Lelouch on the other hand hasn't done anything at any point to match the definition of a Hypocrite. I welcome any example you can come up with. Lelouch doesn't even attempt to make any excuses about leaving the final battle in S1 its just a fact the Japanese resistance needs Zero no matter what cost he comes with. Zero needs them to accomplish his goals but there goals are not his and thats been made clear. However he will give them what they want if they continue to help him as it benefits him anyway.
Basically put where is Zero/Lelouch actively contradicting himself or any of his goals with his actions? Give a example of that one because I certainly can't come up with one.
I believe Suzaku is too ignorant and that he actually believes the empire is correct in what they are doing. I mean, what other reason could he have not to give a damn about killing people in EU. Brittania initiated a war with them, which goes against Suzaku's beliefs about bloodshed and all that crap, but for some reason he just can't seem to care, instead he comes into the battle in EU and starts killing people arrogantly, saying their resistance is futile, making it sound like they are just some terrorist guerilla or something, which of course is totalt bullshit.
I think Suzaku's trouble lies very fundamentally with him not being able to see what will come from his actions. He never stops to think, in fact, he is happy not being allowed to think, only being used as a tool for death by the empire.
I think he only cares about Japan, but I think he only cares about Japan because it was embedded in his mind since he was a little boy, having the prime minister as a father telling him that the mother country is to be protected and cared for no matter what.
In other words, I don't think he knows what he cares about at all, it is only a thought in his head that he can't make heads or tails of. He has only been desperate to save one thing one time, and that was for Euphie, he has never shown that kind of desperation for his country, unlike Karen, a true believer of her country's rights.
The only thing I think Suzaku cares about now is revenge and to prove that he is correct (more so out of pride and hatred than out of anything else).
Never try to make Suzaku out to look like Kira from Gundam SEED, like Shinta said, fundamental contradiction. Kira stopped killing people in battle NO MATTER WHAT, he was willing to die to protect his way of life.
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