Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[RyougaZell]

LOL. I won't bash. I loved your post. Except so many 'see above', lol. This was the argument I seeked earlier and did not get. I said it before, you are free to choose the end that fits yourself, and your arguments are great Buff.

While I still think he dies, I find plausible your theory on how he got the code from Charles, without he knowning, without Suzaku knowing and certainly CC not knowing. Also, activating it by death is also plausible. Only defect, or counterargument, I can give to this would be... wouldn't he come back to live in Nunnally's arms? Would she dare hide him? Charles came back immediately following this theory... which in turn will help understand the blood on CC, which I believe was also hers, and not just the sisters. Even with my counterargument, this is the best theory out there... and you explained it in a way that you can even convince me.... save the defect I mentioned of course.

I think Charles and Marianned said they needed both codes to start it... but that is something for another day indeed. Whatever was needed, VV died (yeahz!)

Going for the theory he survived... Lelouch needs to over seclude himself... or the world would be sent to chaos. Okay I just laughed... imagine Lelouch being found because CC ordered Pizza and the delivery boy saw him... that would be idioticly awesome... XD

Either way... I loved that Kallen was the one that told us, the viewers, what went on those months. Too bad Gino and Schneizel are alive.

PS: Whacha think about the Orange?

PS2: I just pre-ordered my Bunny Kallen
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5510 yen

[Kraco]

I actually never really thought seriously about the possibility of Charles's geass. However, now that I read Buffalobiian's post, one thing occurred to me: What exactly is the geass code? And why exactly does it keep its host immortal? If we look at this whole thing from the perspective of the geass code itself, and think it's some sort of a parasite or infection wanting to survive, then it would be natural it would leave the annihilating Charles's body and jump to someone near, and if an existing geass power is a prerequisite, then it would have had to be Lelouch in the World of C, even though it was another code that gave Lelouch's power.

Yeah, if we consider the geass code something similar to One Ring, granting strange powers and giving an unnaturally long life yet having an agenda of its own, and certainly wanting to survive, a few things would be explained.

[shinta|hikari]

I personally think it happened this way:

C.C. gave Lelouch her code during the two month time skip.

Counter arguments -
a) Why was C.C. crying at the church then?
b) Would C.C. really want to pass her curse of immortality to Lelouch?
c) If this happened, C.C. would die eventually and leave Lelouch alone.

My answer -
The first counter argument is answered by the second. C.C. clearly stated as she was crying: "As the price for using geass on other people, you ..." This blank can mean a million things, like "chose to be immortal", "chose to leave almost all the people you care about", "get hugged by the traitor Suzaku", and yes, "chose to die". I am leaning more towards the less blatant versions because it would be meaningless to omit the words otherwise. Simply put, she was probably crying because she made Lelouch immortal, and because she knew he had to leave everything behind.

Still, even if Lelouch became immortal, he can just find some person and give him/her a geass then manipulate them into using it a lot (much like C.C. did). He can then give his code to that person, that is, if he really wanted to lose his immortality.

On the third point, are you guys saying it is less lonely for Lelouch to simply die and leave C.C. alone, than them living together for one lifetime until C.C. perishes? Or maybe even perish together if they wish to (not that I think they would want geass to continue, but C.C.'s final line implies it is not impossible)? I agree with the loved and lost preference, but this sounds more akin to that idea than C.C. just enjoying memories of the past after she allowed her source of happiness to die a horrible death.

There are just too many assumptions in the Charles theory, unlike the C.C. one. <Occam's Razor>

Charles theory assumptions:
1) The code can be transferred without prolonged physical contact.
2) The code can be transferred inadvertently, or without consent or intent from both parties/the receiver.
3) What Kraco said, about the geass being a parasite.
4) The code remains dormant after transfer until the one that receives it dies.

The problem here is, none of these three points were ever proven in the show. Not only that, it is quite unlikely, since all the scenes that were shown to reveal the specifics of the code seem to go against it.

The only time the code was actually transferred (Charles and V.V.) clearly showed intent from the person that wishes to obtain it. The only time we actually saw the code being transferred (C.C. and Charles, albeit unsuccessful since C.C. broke physical contact) suggested that it was a process that took a relatively long time, not just a few seconds of accidental touching. Also, there was never any indication that the code is similar to a parasite or anything of the sort, or that it lies dormant after it gets transferred. While this does not make it impossible for the Charles theory to work, it makes it quite improbable.

EDIT: By the way, has it ever occurred to anyone that if assumption number 1 and 2 are true, all the times that C.C. and Lelouch touched (and there are several) should have led to a code transfer? This clearly did not happen though, which leads me to confirm that the Charles theory is quite bogus.

C.C. theory assumptions:
1) The code bearer (the immortal one), survives even after the code is transferred.
2) C.C. would actually give Lelouch her code.
3) Lelouch would actually want her code.

The first assumption has been strongly indicated, if not proven, when C.C. had her final chat with V.V. before he died. The second one has been addressed above and in the final paragraph of this post. The third one has been more than sufficiently addressed by Kraco in his posts.

Is there even a decent comparison between the two theories? The Charles theory assumes details and dynamics that were never revealed or even implied. The C.C. theory only assumes how the characters act and decide, which is much more open to interpretation, and has stronger arguments supporting it, compared to some random theory that relies on possibility instead of likelihood.

Regarding the danger of Lelouch reappearing again and destroying the peace... Simply laying low (like driving a wagon in some province in disguise) should aid greatly in avoiding detection. Heck, almost no one recognized him as Lelouch in that final scene (assuming it is him, which is what we are doing).

Plastic surgery is also an option, among a million other ways to hide your identity in a show that managed to get a maid disguised as Lelouch to kiss a girl and not get found out. It is a show about hiding one's identity and people are worried the most deceptive and smartest one around will stupidly get caught?

On a final note, C.C.'s reason for wanting death is loneliness. She wanted to be loved, not to simply experience it, but to have it. I doubt she would let Lelouch die if she could help it (in fact, keeping Lelouch alive was most of her mission, one that eventually superseded her wish for death), and she could, by simply transferring her code to him. Yes, she curses him with immortality, but I can easily see C.C. prioritizing her happiness (which is deeply rooted in caring for Lelouch and his survival), as she clearly showed when she asked Lelouch to simply cease his plans and told him that he has done enough. Also, it is not like the curse is permanent, since the code can be transferred. Before anyone replies by saying "I don't think they can do such a thing due to (moral reason A) and (moral reason B).", I would like to remind you that those two are hardly hindered by such things, if at all.

[RyougaZell]

Yes, she curses him with immortality, but I can easily see C.C. prioritizing her happiness (which is deeply rooted in caring for Lelouch and his survival), as she clearly showed when she asked Lelouch to simply cease his plans and told him that he has done enough.

In other words... she doesn't really care about him. Just herself. She became what she hated. The same as the sister which gaver her geass.

If I were to choose one of the zillion theories of why Lelouch is alive, it wouldn't be this one. It would be the Charles's dormant code. CC should have just handed her code to Mao then, if she only cared about herself. Sure, she can spend the following 40~50 years with Lelouch. Then he is cursed by eternity.

Would Lelouch give the code to someone else? Remember he wanted to end the curse of geass, so he killed the geass cult. Whatever code he could have gotten, he would never hand it down, unless he became broken, and became like the sister, no longer caring about others. A man who discarded his identity, life, family and friends to find peace? The code would be indeed a parasite... one that contaminates the mind.

EDIT:

I recall Marianne asking why CC was not dissapearing alongside her and Charles... I think its because CC stopped being selfish... thus she would not prioritize her own happiness as you say.

[shinta|hikari]

In other words... she doesn't really care about him. Just herself. She became what she hated. The same as the sister which gaver her geass.

So you mean it would be more considerate and caring of C.C. to just let Lelouch die instead of giving him another chance at life (one less tragic, and with her, no less)?

Don't misunderstand. I am not saying that she does this against Lelouch's will. The only thing she valued more than her own happiness is Lelouch, and his will (near the end of the show, not as much in the earlier parts). She has always respected his decision, even if it actually goes against her objective of keeping him alive throughout the series. I am saying that it is quite possible that they both decided to carry out that plan, and while hesitant, it is not far-fetched to think that C.C. would do it (and cry about it, as she did in the church).

CC should have just handed her code to Mao then, if she only cared about herself.

The reason why she didn't do that is because Mao would never let her. Mao would never allow her to die because he is obsessed with her. Don't forget that she was the one that left him because he could not fulfill the contract, since it ultimately ends with her death.

Oh, I should mention that C.C.'s plan the entire time she was with Lelouch was to give him her code and die. She only changed her mind at the thought elevator because she realized that Lelouch could not kill her. She even said: "You are too kind".

You seem to think that C.C. is some love-struck martyr that would sacrifice everything for Lelouch's goals. She is not.

Would Lelouch give the code to someone else? Remember he wanted to end the curse of geass, so he killed the geass cult. Whatever code he could have gotten, he would never hand it down, unless he became broken, and became like the sister, no longer caring about others. A man who discarded his identity, life, family and friends to find peace? The code would be indeed a parasite... one that contaminates the mind.

That is why I posited that future only as a possibility. I even said "if he really wanted to lose his immortality". He may choose to keep it for one reason or another (one reason is the one you posited), but eternity is a long time, and he may change his mind. I just clarified that possibility, since people seem to think that immortality/the code is a permanent curse when it is not.

Also, don't forget C.C.'s final line, that clearly stated that geass does not always bring loneliness.

On another point, in order for the Charles dormant code theory to work, the first two assumptions I listed in my earlier post have to be true, and if they are...

"EDIT: By the way, has it ever occurred to anyone that if assumption number 1 and 2 are true, all the times that C.C. and Lelouch touched (and there are several) should have led to a code transfer? This clearly did not happen though, which leads me to confirm that the Charles theory is quite bogus."

Of course, you can come up with another reason for it (like sometimes the code transfers because of agitation, or because they were in that other dimension), that is not shown or even implied in the show. But hey, like you said, one can interpret this ending however they want, right?

[Buffalobiian]

Charles theory assumptions:
1) The code can be transferred without prolonged physical contact.
2) The code can be transferred inadvertently, or without consent or intent from both parties/the receiver.
3) What Kraco said, about the geass being a parasite.
4) The code remains dormant after transfer until the one that receives it dies.

Fixing a few things up:
1) By physical contact, I meant physical contact with the Code Mark. This assumption was based on how Charles looked like he was trying to touch C.C.'s face. Why he didn't palm her forehead? I don't know...

2) This one was indeed an assumption based out of no where. I thought of this because if it doesn't require both parties, that leaves one, or none.

3) I can't talk for this one. It wasn't my idea

4) Now this one was chosen from this:

As for "Isn't the Geass supposed to disappear after you have both?", we'll go back to Charles. Remember how Lelouch geassed him to kill himself and he did? Then he came back to life. I can find three possibilities:

1) Charles was playing along with Lelouch to rise and smack it in his face. He was never Geassed.

2) Charles was indeed geassed by Lelouch and attempted to kill himself. He can be geassed because he's not the Code master who gave Lelouch his Geass. Charles lived because he had his Code.

3) Charles took V.V.'s code, but it remained dormant within him. He still had his memory alteration Geass. Lelouch then geassed Charles, who killed himself as a Geass user subjected to another Geass. When he died, the Code took effect. He resurrected as a Code master without a Geass.

After some thought, #2 can be scrapped. Straight after he resurrected Charles showed Lelouch he can't be geassed. His eyes repel the rays.

That leaves #1 and #3. During the course of the series, Charles character feels to me like one who is straight and upfront. I can't recall any particular evidence, it's just a feeling I get. Perhaps it's all his speeches about the strongest survive put so matter-of-factly. Perhaps it's Schneizel's comments on how Charles would have taken his White King without hesitation, translating to: If he sees your opening, he'll take it. Something like that.

Looking back at episode 15, when he got Geassed, he (firstly yelled, then) obeyed with "very well". When he came back, he's full of confidence. "Your powers cannot beat me!" "Fool!".

The latter just seems a lot like the Charles we know. And to me, he doesn't seem like the guy to let you take the upper hand, even if it's pretending.

But yes, the Charles Theory does explore more unproven, or perhaps better phrased, uncovered aspects of the story than yours. However, by taking these assumptions, which are in their own right quite plausible, they explain a lot of counter-arguments, which I see it as its strong point.

I'll leave you with yours though, since I'm finding it harder to compare/contrast on where Lelouch got his Code.

LOL. I won't bash.

Now that I read my post, it looked like the final paragraph was directed at you, which I can tell you wasn't the case. More a general message.

Only defect, or counterargument, I can give to this would be... wouldn't he come back to live in Nunnally's arms? Would she dare hide him? Charles came back immediately following this theory... which in turn will help understand the blood on CC, which I believe was also hers, and not just the sisters. Even with my counterargument, this is the best theory out there... and you explained it in a way that you can even convince me.... save the defect I mentioned of course.

You're making me think too. It's possible that he can play dead, but he's leaving himself in hostile hands with Jeremiah retreating like that... At the very least, Suzaku wouldn't have let people mutilate the body or anything.

Going for the theory he survived... Lelouch needs to over seclude himself... or the world would be sent to chaos. Okay I just laughed... imagine Lelouch being found because CC ordered Pizza and the delivery boy saw him... that would be idioticly awesome... XD

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

PS: Whacha think about the Orange?

I thought it was pretty funny. Ever thought of making an Orange-kun emoticon?

if lelouch is dead, then that's fine... it was simply awesome HOW he died with Nunally crying for him (btw what happened when he touched his arm?.. or were the flashbacks just a symbol and she actually realised everything because she saw Suzaku's agility)

That flashback was done so we won't have a definite answer. You can say they were literal memory transfers because Lelouch is now a Code master. You can also think of it as simply Nunnally's "knowing the truth" ability, and the pictures were merely a figurative representation for animation purposes. For the Charles Theory to work, it would have to be the second one, but it's up to you.

[RyougaZell]

Wish I could do emoticons. I just found the Orange at another site and knew I needed to use it... and it serves to change out of the Kakashi emoticon. I don't even like Kakashi that much but the expression of the emoticon was priceless.


About Lelouch being found because of CC's Pizza... imagine that... the World fell into chaos because of a slice of Pizza... and maybe CC even dared as to use Lelouch's credit card to buy it... lol

Playing dead could fail... because Nunnally keeps hugging him. She would feel his heart beating again. I don't think Kallen, Kaguya or the others would stay away from his body either. At least until Zerosaku explained their plan.

[RyougaZell]

I actually phrased the part about coming back immediately when the code first activates. Afterwards they can stay down longer (CC's first appearance on the series)

You see... Charles' -died- when he shot himself and came back immediately.
And I think CC came back to life immediately after the sister kill her to give the code.

We have no proof that a Code Beared dies or not when they give the code. Until know we've only seen VV and the sister giving it, and they died afterwards. Execution? Suicide? Handing down the code? Its open... no real proof for any of them.

I mean... was CC going to die when she was going to give the code to Charles? Or she planned to suicide? Damn Geass left many things to interpretation.

[shinta|hikari]

Ah, I see. Indeed, if you place it in the context that assumes the code needs to be activated by dying (with your added qualifier and assumption about the sister), that would make sense.

There was actually a discussion before whether the person that gives away the code will die immediately after the transfer in one of the geass threads. Ironically, I was on the side that espoused immediate death upon transfer. But after several exchanges with Kraco and Ryll, I changed my mind (particularly because of the flashback with the Nun laying dead looking peaceful and satisfied). It was left quite open though, as you say.

[Buffalobiian]

Talking about open ended stuff....Jupiter....

Why is it even in this anime?!

[RyougaZell]

Geass came from Jupiter?

Damn it... remember the 'flashback' with all the Code Bearers? What happened to that?

[oyabun]

Then maybe there are more code bearers hanging around eh?

[Hiwatari]

i'm very satisfied with the ending of R2. just a few questions, not sure if it's asked here in the forums though.

1) Is lelouch still alive?
2) Is there a possibility of a third season?

[Buffalobiian]

i'm very satisfied with the ending of R2. just a few questions, not sure if it's asked here in the forums though.

1) Is lelouch still alive?
2) Is there a possibility of a third season?

1) There is no conclusive answer.
2) Same as above, though more likely than not, answer's no.

[RyougaZell]

i'm very satisfied with the ending of R2. just a few questions, not sure if it's asked here in the forums though.

1) Is lelouch still alive?
2) Is there a possibility of a third season?

Remains to personal interpretation. Some of us believe he died. Others believe he survived.

No 3rd season please...ending is fine as it was. Besides... the director already stated it was the end, not a 'end of season' nor a 'to be continued'

[TheBladeChild]

2) Is there a possibility of a third season?

The only way they could have a third season IMO is to have a completely new cast and a side plot on a smaller scale then the one in seasone 1 and 2. Personally a I wouldnt mind a OVA or movie as long as it is written and directed well enough. Since Sunrise is such a cashhog theres no reason for them not to make more money out of CG.

[Kraco]

Since Sunrise is such a cashhog theres no reason for them not to make more money out of CG.

It doesn't look like they are running out of new projects, though, so they don't necessarily need to drag along old projects.

I wouldn't mind some silly OVA that wouldn't much touch the plot anymore. Though it most likely would take place somewhere between the real eps as they aren't likely to ever reveal an "official" opinion of Lelouch's fate.

[Hiwatari]

i hope they do an OVA though.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, the director's retiring after this isn't he? I'm not sure if I'll mind an OVA. Just whatever doesn't fuck it up. Open endings are good in a way.

But I really wouldn't mind seeing more of C.C.

[RyougaZell]

@Buff:

Check my pre-order http://www.hlj.com/product/MEG71189