Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[Ryllharu]

And it seems Milly misses Lloyd, while we can't be sure the reverse is true.

I would not be surprised in the least if we first see Lloyd having zero interest in Milly whatsoever (since he stated he really only wanted her for the dowry of the Ganymede Knightmare frame) and then he turns around and kisses her full on the lips, or grabs her around her very curvaceous waist, or similar in front of Cecile. This would invariably cause the usually shameless Milly to blush fiercely. Cecile might then smack him for being ill mannered.

@KrayZ33:

I don't know why but Kallen is nothing more than a sex object for me with all the fanservice about her.

Kallen has always been a sex object since episode 1 of season 1. Just think about it.

- Her basic outfit was a double-sided keyhole jacket with a tube top underneath, short shorts, and leggings.
- Lelouch saw her naked in the shower.
- Upgrade to the Black Knights uniform. Practically non-existent skirt.
- Give her the Gurren Mk II. Now she's posed leaning heavily over the control seat (which seems to be designed after a street motorcycle, perhaps alluding to another huge fetish in Japan...auto show girls). Either way, granting an excuse to have her pose in an overt sexual manner.
- Give her the skin tight "plug suit" from Raksharta.
- Suzaku sees her naked.
- Season 2 begins, she's wearing a bunny suit of all things. I'm would not be surprised if the entire casino sequence and "punishment" of the Elevens was written solely for granting an excuse to make her wear that.

And so on and so forth...

[Yukimura]

I've always had the impression Suzaku's ultimate goal/ideal was the elimination of armed conflict with him in a position of power and authority in Britannia. While it's true that in a world without armed conflict there wouldn't be as much meaningless murder, I don't think Suzaku has ever had any qualms about reaching this ideal by killing or otherwise harming anyone who would stand in the way (see 10 year old shooting father for not bowing to Britannia). For whatever reason I don't think he places a higher value on anything than he does on peace (i.e. the lack of conflict) with loyalty to Britannia a close second. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are things that one might think a good 'virtuous' person would value but I don't believe any of these things matter to Suzaku if they get in the way of peace or if upholding them would cause him to be disloyal to Britannia.

For Suzaku killing someone wouldn't be bad because it deprives that person of their life, it would only be bad if that killing pissed someone else off and made them want to escalate a conflict or if Britannia didn't want that person killed. Britannians randomly going through ghettos and shooting civillians would probably not be in line with Suzaku's ideal but at the same time, as long as those people didn't fight back I don't sense anything 'hypocritical' about him not having an interest in stopping it. By the same token if the survivors of such attacks chose to form an organized military organization to fight against Britannia rather than be subjugated (and shot at) it would be well within the lines of his ideals to try and cripple or destroy that organization, because if there is no structure to a resistance it is much less dangerous and less likely to cause large scale conflict.

EDIT: I just recalled in the first ep he was dislyoal to Britannia by refusing to kill C.C. and Lelouch and got shot for it. I can't think of any other incidents where he went against direct orders from Britannia after that though so maybe that changed him.

As much as I think it's will only make things worse I'll throw in my take on the hypocrisy fiasco.

If my assessment of Suzaku's core ideology is accurate then Suzaku would only be a hypocrite if he were to act in a manner that invited or expanded a conflict when doing nothing would have made the conflict end more quickly or there wouldn't have be a conflict in the first place, OR if he willfully disobeyed Britannia in order to further some other goal.

During season one Suzaku would most often arrive after a battle had already been engaged and was dragging on with Britannia not able to advance. He would then act to cripple the enemies ability to continue the battle as quickly as possible, because his goal was for the conflict to be over with Britannia the victor (earns him points). The reasons the battle was being fought or the lives of the people fighting never seemed to have much bearing on his actions. Also, if you look at his track record for mid-combat diplomacy, he only seems willing to talk to people if he realizes he can't just overwhelm them and quickly destroy their ability to fight. Only when he recognizes that the fight could drag on longer if he just keeps fighting weill he try to convince the opponent to stand down on their own. If he can just destroy their ability to do battle then he's fine with that and in fact it seems to be his first preference.

In recent memory the closest I've seen Suzaku come to hypocrisy (meaning acting against his beliefs as I perceive them) is when he was fighting the EU. I still don't consider this hypocritical because while the EU didn't start that fight and were only engaged in conflict as a response to the aggression of Britannia, Suzaku arrived after the battle had already started. Faced with an ongoing battle where Britannia is not overwhelmingly winning I think he would be keeping to his ideals by trying to stop the other side from fighting as soon as possible, by any means necessary. One could argue that ending that particular battle only meant there would be more battles between the Britanians and the EU as they advanced further into Europe, however part of Suzaku's ideology seems to be that Britannia must be victorious and as we know, he has next to no foresight into the collateral consequences of his actions. Though I suppose it's possible Suzaku figured getting ass-raped so soundly might convince the EU to just give up. In any case, destroying the EU forces was something that furthered his ideals (as I perceive them) so I don't see it as hypocrisy.

[Ryllharu]

Hah, I can't believe I didn't notice this the first time:

At 7:37, While the other members of the student council are guessing at Zero's identity and trying to pry it out of Suzaku, Shirley makes her guess. And she's dead on. A combination of the brain warping Lelouch did to her and the Emperor's Geass? Though it would be true that Shirley didn't know Lelouch was actually one of the Princes.

Also, at 13:40, we get a hint at the fate of Lelouch's "duration test" victim. The last mark has only a single scratch in the wall. We can assume she was forcibly removed from the Academy in mid-stroke. Perhaps she is in a mental facility back in Britannia.


EDIT:

On a far more serious tone, what could be Rollo's Geass' weakness?

And secondly, at 13:36, Rivalz finds one of Nina's boxes. But it says "Beardface!! This is mine!! Don't touch - don't open it!! Throw it out and I'll Kill you!!"

1. Who is "beardface"? No one in the council has a beard. I can't think of anyone else at the school that would have it.
2. What is in there?

She's turned into a huge bitch. Nina was generally rather sweet and quiet, not quite like that. I guess Euphie's death changed her in lots of ways too.

I have no clue who beardface would be, but there are two very interesting options for what happens to be inside the box. First, it could really be Nina's. In that case, it could have all her table-masturbating materials featuring Euphiemia pictures and possible a small stool for the occasional boost. More incriminating, it could be filled with general paraphernalia from her student council days. Namely, pictures with everyone.

Including, of course...Nunnally.

Or...given the nasty tone of the box, it could also be Kallen's. But they all seem to remember her being a member of the Black Knights, so I'm going to lean towards the former.

[Uchiha Barles]

OMFG. I wanted this to stop but I cannot stand not replying to the nonsense above. Very short reply though.

Not fighting and not killing are two different things.

See episode 3 (or was it 2) of R2 and tell me if what Suzaku did to those obviously inferior knightmares (he said so himself) was not needless killing. It was practically a massacre, when he could have disabled them easily.

You do not understand the concept of fundamental contradiction. That means YOU CANNOT KILL if you want your ideal to remain true. What you propose is not the ideal that Suzaku originally went after (note Lancelot's first appearance - no enemy pilot was killed), but a more pragmatic version that he adopted as the show continued (which he donned while maintaining his belief of his moral high ground that would have applied initially but not later).

You are having a heyday throwing around the word hypocrite aren't you? Please don't forget to keep it in context, meaning consistent with what people meant when they said it, not what you mean by it so you can prove your point.

Check the threads. Your suspicions are wrong.

EDIT: If we agree that this is his ideal, how can you justify his actions I noted above?

EDIT: If this doesn't make you understand, nothing will (which means do not expect a reply no matter how silly your following posts become).

On a side note, and a hopeful change of topic, does Suzaku's beliefs extend to other people, or only to the Japanese? Does he even value people outside his country?

Alright, I went ahead and read the threads you mentioned, I went ahead and took your suggestion of reviewing the episodes in the first season. Here's what I found. Concerning Suzaku's ideals, he never once said his goal isn't to kill people. He said this in episode 1, between 16 minutes and 41 seconds into the episode, and 16 minutes and 51 seconds of the GG sub: “He is merely a civilian who has been caught up in this...I can't shoot a civilian like him (Lelouche)”. To this date, he has yet to shoot a civilian.

Next, in episode 4 (I'm always referring to the GG subs) he said, at the 20:51 mark: “ That's why I'm going to change Brittania into a worthwhile country from the inside out...Even so, those are the rules (in response to lelouche saying he's going to get shafted if he returns for a trial), if I don't go, the accusations against the Elevens and honored Britanians will begin.”

Ok, this is straight forward, he wants the Elevens and honored Britannians to suffer as little as possible, so he follows the rules of the current governing power, Britannia in order to minimize the suffering of the Honored Britannians and the Elevens. Nothing he's done so far has increased the suffering of either the elevens or the britannians, unless it was in relation to fighting the Order of the Black Knights. This he does because of the rules. I think Yukimura is right on the money concerning this. And the rules he follows, he does so because of his ideals, his respect for the lives of those not in conflict.

You mentioned that Suzaku, in the beginning didn't kill when using the Lancelot. Ok, fine. Considering observing that says that Suzaka does value the lives of the other soldiers he fought. Fine, note though, he never said (and I just went through season one in it's entirety) that he was going to do things without killing at all. That means him not killing those soldiers (who at the time weren't officially part of the Order mind you, which is another point to be made, they were not under anyone's banner) was a bonus for them, and not a single one of Suzuku's ideals made that something he HAD to do to not be seen as a hypocrite. In fact it was naïve of him to act that way, and it was something he needed to grow out of, and did. I already mentioned in my previous post why it was naïve. This shows that he was conflicted, not hypocritical According to the standard that you use to judge lelouche that is.

I'm having a heyday throwing the word hypocrite around? Why don't people say what they mean instead of butchering the english language? And, I did respond according to what the posters meant. And that response, once again, show that they use one standard to measure Lelouche, and another to measure Suzaku. Let me give you an example of this inconsistant (hypocritical?) use of standards that I've been able to uncover on account of your suggestion to view the old threads.

The following quote is from THIS thread:

What makes him a hypocrite is the fact that he thinks his way (this way) is much better, despite it being on the exact same level. He puts on a "false appearance of virtue", when he actually does not have it, as much as Lelouch does not have it in this sense. Your understanding of the very definition you posted is weak. It does not matter if he believes in it himself, or if you believe in Suzaku on any level.

The following quote is from the OLD thread, code geass season 1:

Lelouch is not a hypocrite. If anything, he is too accepting of his ways even at the expense of his conscience. Suzaku fools himself into thinking he is doing the right thing while his actions say otherwise. Lelouch may be a liar, but at least he doesnt lie to himself. Suzaku may be "honest", but since he lies to himself, he is practically fooling everyone else as well.

Oh, and Lelouch doesnt agree with "might makes right". He is changing the world precisely because he wants to change that mindset. But he realizes that using power is the only real way to effect that change. He should know the irony there, but realistically, its the only way (with the information he has). Suzaku is just a fool who cant go against the system. Heck, he was about to kill himself with Zero once (which should go against his pacifist ideals and "good nature") just because he was ordered to.

More than being a hypocrite, I guess Suzaku is so irritating because he is a naive idiot.

So, in the old thread, the fact that Lelouche is not lying to himself, and having his beliefs be consistent with his actions is good enough to Judge Lelouche by. But, when I show that Suzaku believes the same, and he's consistent the same way, all of a sudden that standard no longer matters? THIS is what I'm talking about. It's not fair. And that's not me crying like a little girl either. It is not a proper way of forming a conclusion. If it appeals to your emotions and your sense of morality, fine, but it has no place in a logical debate.

@DDBen: In order for you to call any of them a hypocrite, you have to have a basis. I just showed in the preceeding paragraphs, that the basis you used is not good enough. He didn't change his methods after Euphie died. His method, is to follow the the rules of the empire with the belief that this is the best way to minimize civilian casualties. It always has been. There are times when he was conflicted yes, like when he was told to shoot Lelouche, and when he was told to massacre civilians. To this day, he's done neither. When he does, I'll revisit whether he's a hypocrite or not. The EU are not civilians, those he killed were a fighting force. And this was all under Britannia's orders, which again, he'd resolved to follow. Also, he never mentioned that he thought there'd be no bloodshed his way. He just thought there'd be less bloodshed of NON-COMBATTANTS doing things his way.

Give me a basis that you can use to sustain your argument that Suzaku is a hypocrite, and I guarantee you I can use that very same basis to show that Lelouche is one too.

Edit: w00t! 1000th post! I'm quite happy it wasn't in a Naruto forum.

[MFauli]

I don't know why but Kallen is nothing more than a sex object for me with all the fanservice about her.

Is there a episode yet where she doesn't show her ass or boobs yet? They could do it at least in a more appealing way like they did with C.C. @ the container where she sat on the handrail.. Season 2 is really very much about fanservice 8[
Well its not that I dislike to see C.C, Shirley or even Kallen (especially the first 2) but it is a bit too much right now,especially with Kallen...

Sorry, but there CAN NOT be enough :-/
Man, if Lelouch used his Geass to its best, this series could have become an awsome hentai-series...lol....no, serious...or lol?

@episode 5:

Overall a bit slow, but as someone said, very nice setup-episode for whats coming next. And i hate Suzaku. Not that i ever liked him, but i hate him now for putting Lelouch into such a pinch. Wow.

[RyougaZell]

Hah, I can't believe I didn't notice this the first time:

At 7:37, While the other members of the student council are guessing at Zero's identity and trying to pry it out of Suzaku, Shirley makes her guess. And she's dead on. A combination of the brain warping Lelouch did to her and the Emperor's Geass? Though it would be true that Shirley didn't know Lelouch was actually one of the Princes.

Also, at 13:40, we get a hint at the fate of Lelouch's "duration test" victim. The last mark has only a single scratch in the wall. We can assume she was forcibly removed from the Academy in mid-stroke. Perhaps she is in a mental facility back in Britannia.


EDIT:

On a far more serious tone, what could be Rollo's Geass' weakness?

And secondly, at 13:36, Rivalz finds one of Nina's boxes. But it says "Beardface!! This is mine!! Don't touch - don't open it!! Throw it out and I'll Kill you!!"

1. Who is "beardface"? No one in the council has a beard. I can't think of anyone else at the school that would have it.
2. What is in there?

She's turned into a huge bitch. Nina was generally rather sweet and quiet, not quite like that. I guess Euphie's death changed her in lots of ways too.

I have no clue who beardface would be, but there are two very interesting options for what happens to be inside the box. First, it could really be Nina's. In that case, it could have all her table-masturbating materials featuring Euphiemia pictures and possible a small stool for the occasional boost. More incriminating, it could be filled with general paraphernalia from her student council days. Namely, pictures with everyone.

Including, of course...Nunnally.

Or...given the nasty tone of the box, it could also be Kallen's. But they all seem to remember her being a member of the Black Knights, so I'm going to lean towards the former.

I did notice your three points.
Shirley, the box and the scratched wall.

The wall was a very nice detail, specially since it was discussed some episodes ago, here on gotwoot.

But I kinda got lazy after seeing pages and pages of full essays on Suzaku's hypocresy vs Lelouch's hypocresy. <--- the fact remains that we like Lelouch and we don't like Suzaku. End of story.

[shinta|hikari]

It seems people disagree with what Suzaku's ideal is, and that is fine, as long as it is acknowledged as Yuki did.

@Uchiha - Lelouch may be a liar, but at least he doesnt lie to himself. Suzaku may be "honest", but since he lies to himself, he is practically fooling everyone else as well.

There is a very clear and consistent logical standard used on both of these. Are you like, blind? This is based on the second definition you gave before. I can argue that even the first applies, but that would be just a waste of time. The difference is what we believe Suzaku's goals to be, not what logical standard is used. Sigh...

[Yukimura]

In my post I neglected to add my opinion on the matter of my perception of Suzaku's ideology. I just want to be clear I think Suzaku has a terrible ideology and I think he's a pile of shit for being comfortable disregarding the hopes, dreams, and lives of all the people who aren't willing to patiently wait for HIM to get into a position to help them.

Anyway, I'm far more interested in the wall and the fact that the last mark was incomplete. If she was killed or somehow taken away she would likely have completed the last mark then there would be no more after she was no longer able to make them. The fact that she stopped mid way through a stroke gives the impression Lelouch's geass may have [had] a finite time limit. Whether it would matter if it's that long is debatable, but the implications do offer potential twists later.

[DDBen]

@Uchiha Barles

You know I wrote out some massive post to reply to you but in the end decided its not worth continuing that discussion. I simply disagree with your points and your reasoning. Suzaku has a constantly changing set of goals and reasoning behind them its all to make himself feel better about killing his own father. The fact is if at any point he admits he's wrong then he has nothing left and will crumble all that he is and exists for is a lie made up in his own head. The only person he's ever helped by following the path he's chosen is the Emperor.

Anyway, I'm far more interested in the wall and the fact that the last mark was incomplete. If she was killed or somehow taken away she would likely have completed the last mark then there would be no more after she was no longer able to make them. The fact that she stopped mid way through a stroke gives the impression Lelouch's geass may have [had] a finite time limit. Whether it would matter if it's that long is debatable, but the implications do offer potential twists later.

Hmm this is a interesting point. If the Geass did wear off after a certain amount of time its also possible that after that time limit Lelouch May be able to use his Geass on the same person a second time. The limit from before could theoretically be the result of the command having to be deleted by waiting out the duration before it can be used again. It seems there are a bit to many people around Lelouch has no ability to use his Geass on and I fully expect it to mutate again before the school arc ends.

[shinta|hikari]

True. His geass may evolve into something that can be canceled at his will, but that might be a bit too overpowered.

[David75]

I did notice your three points.
Shirley, the box and the scratched wall.

The wall was a very nice detail, specially since it was discussed some episodes ago, here on gotwoot.

But I kinda got lazy after seeing pages and pages of full essays on Suzaku's hypocresy vs Lelouch's hypocresy. <--- the fact remains that we like Lelouch and we don't like Suzaku. End of story.

I wonder who were the people Lelouch Geassed with a "no time limit" order...

Shirley is one of them, isn't she? I just don't remember the time lapse beetween the guinea pig order and Shirley's...
I hope it's not a way of telling us Euphie could be back.

[Buffalobiian]

I wonder who were the people Lelouch Geassed with a "no time limit" order...

Shirley is one of them, isn't she? I just don't remember the time lapse beetween the guinea pig order and Shirley's...
I hope it's not a way of telling us Euphie could be back.

Guinea pig order? As in the one Lelouch gave to test the duration of his Geass? I'm not understanding your post completely, but I there's no way Euphie's coming back using Lelouch's Geass.

[David75]

Guinea pig order? As in the one Lelouch gave to test the duration of his Geass? I'm not understanding your post completely, but I there's no way Euphie's coming back using Lelouch's Geass.

Guinea Pig: Girl making cross marks. She gives an idea of how many days Lelouch's Geass lasts.

Lelouch Geassed Shirley to make her forget he is Zero and even she was in love with him.
So that Geass order will someday vanish. Remains the Empero one I guess.

Euphie: Are we totally sure she's dead? it seems so, but if for some reason she isn't, the Geass she received from Lelouch will also come to an end. On a side note, Cornelia being absent could also be explained with her taking care of the heavily injured but not dead Euphie... as cheesy as it seems.

To me, a lot of stress has been put on the time Lelouch's Geass lasts. I do not see why this time limit would not be used.

[Ryllharu]

Euphie: Are we totally sure she's dead? it seems so, but if for some reason she isn't, the Geass she received from Lelouch will also come to an end. On a side note, Cornelia being absent could also be explained with her taking care of the heavily injured but not dead Euphie... as cheesy as it seems.

To me, a lot of stress has been put on the time Lelouch's Geass lasts. I do not see why this time limit would not be used.

This is a Sunrise series, but there are limits. That Mai Hime/Otome simply refused to kill anyone off is one thing, that countless Gundam pilots have suffered direct hits, float into place and are engulfed by pink explosion clouds only to miraculously survive is another.

But Euphie was shot in the chest, received a sucking chest wound, bleed all over the place (and Suzaku), received immediate highly advanced medical attention, only to see the doctors shake their head and have Suzaku by her side as she grew pale, lost her sight, went cold, and died.

It safe to say she's dead. Now, I do see an increased likelyhood that Lelouch will use a body double of her to fuck with Suzaku now that he's used Nunnally against him, but that wouldn't be Euphie.

-----------------------------------
The time limit question is interesting. Still, Lelouch's Geass does permanent brain damage to the target (the pattern switch animation) which is why he could only use it once. So far, it seems that everyone's Geass has a weakness (Mao's being the need for concentration that was used against him and not being able to shut it off).

Though there were also the guards that noticed and reported over the radios a "suspicious person" who happened to be our wall-carver during the school festival last season (eps 22), so they may have pulled her then. She was in mid-carve then.

[insane]

i hope suzaku dies.....

[shinta|hikari]

@insane - Absolute agreement.

@Ryll - Your idea sounds more plausible, though I still think there is something behind it, since geass doesn't really show such details for no reason.

[Buffalobiian]

i hope suzaku dies.....

Funnily enough, I have a feeling that Lelouch is the one that will die, if one is to die. He's by far my favourite character, but I just sudden imagined him dying after all his revenges (emperor dies), creating The United States of Japan, while Suzaku takes on a role in Brittania that lets him settle conflict.

Life goes on. C.C. works as a pizza lady, and Kallen lives a quiet life. Zero lives on in people's hearts and his stories are passed down like a legend, but only a handful of people remember there was once a genius Brittanian student. His name was Lelouch Lamperouge.<Insert OP>




Now, feel free to burn down my vision. It's based on no evidence whatsoever.

[shinta|hikari]

That's like the most terrible tragedy that can befall Lelouch. He never wanted to be a hero, unlike Suzaku. He only wanted to live peacefully with Nunally. Take that away and he will turn to dust.

[animus]

It's a Sunrise series so they'll probably be in cahoots one day. I just hope it doesn't take that path, or Suzaku just dies shortly after.

[RyougaZell]

If Nunnally were to die... I wonder if Lelouch would continue as 'Zero' to extract revenge against the Emperor and Suzaku...