Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2

[DDBen]

The only thing V.V. told Suzaku was that Zero had a power called the Geass [Episode 24-25 starting at 14:22]. Not who Zero was, and gave him no instructions. Just like C.C. doesn't tell Lelouch what to do, though we really have no idea what she wants in exchange yet or when she will demand payment. But V.V. doesn't have a deal with Suzaku as Lelouch does with C.C. There is no obligation between them. He can't give Suzaku any orders. V.V. can manipulate him, and he surely did that. In no way, shape, or form did V.V. tell Suzaku to do anything. Suzaku went to take revenge for Euphie. No one else.

There's no reason to believe that he wouldn't now that he takes orders only from the royalty, maybe only the Emperor himself. The Emperor showed clear motive for wiping out the entirety of the Black Knights, and clearly wanted C.C. dead. Why give her any additional aid allowed to operate freely? As half-Britannian, particularly higher society, Kallen would still have free access if she wasn't outed as a member of the Black Knights.

Yes his reason for giving his all to stop Zero was absolutely to avenge Euphie but at that time he was still lying to himself about who Zero was. After finding out that it was 100% Lelouch though his goal changed again. If he had truely only wanted to avenge Euphie at that moment he would have killed Zero and thats it problem solved. Instead he proved to himself who Zero was and then resumed his original goal forsaking his revenge in order to prove his friend wrong and change things from the inside once again. That was something he wanted to prove to Lelouch he could do in order to prove his way was right this isn't cold hearted its simply him sticking to his guns.

As for what V.V. told him we know he told him about the existence of Geass we don't know what else he told him or if he told him something else for certain. That scene only shows the beginning of a conversation. Note its also possible Suzaku simply brought Lelouch before the Emperor because he knew specifically of his heritage. Anything I stated about V.V. telling Suzaku specific things aside from about what a geass is was purely speculation.

After who she still stubbornly supports (Suzaku expressing that sentiment exactly in the flashback to the island) why would he give her any quarter after all the aid she has provided Zero and the role she might have played in Euphie's death. Sure, he let her escape the island, but with all the other members of the Black Knights in exile, in prison, or dead, why would he even bother sparing Kallen now?

Suzaku believes Zero was executed because he watched the Emperor kill Zero right in front of him. Note not kill Lelouch but simply the personality and the rational behind Zero. Kallen at that point had no zero to follow and no reason for him to believe her a threat and he did consider her a friend he was able to "save". He knew she was in the Black Knights well before the showdown in 25 and never turned her in because he felt he could save her so after doing so why on earth would he randomly point and say get her? Once again with the return of Zero this changes and he has every reason to hunt her down because now she joined Zero again despite knowing the truth.

[Ryllharu]

Are you going to just continue with baseless conjecture, or actually provide some evidence to back up these claims? I have done that more than enough times, several occasions listing episode and a timestamp. I suppose your argument is, "They didn't say that it did NOT occur, therefore it must be true," rather than use any evidence to back any of these wild guesses up?

This paragraph:

Suzaku believes Zero was executed because he watched the Emperor kill Zero right in front of him. Note not kill Lelouch but simply the personality and the rational behind Zero. Kallen at that point had no zero to follow and no reason for him to believe her a threat and he did consider her a friend he was able to "save". He knew she was in the Black Knights well before the showdown in 25 and never turned her in because he felt he could save her so after doing so why on earth would he randomly point and say get her? Once again with the return of Zero this changes and he has every reason to hunt her down because now she joined Zero again despite knowing the truth.

Total Bullshit. Suzaku knew damn well exactly what the Emperor was doing, but not what he intended to do with him, which was to specifically lead the Black Knights and C.C. out into the open to finish them all off. Then Suzaku goes off to fight with the rest of the Knights of the Round against the European Union, as alluded to by the blond member of the Knights of the Round as seen in the OP.

Ever heard of debriefing? If Suzaku was just folded into one of the highest ranking orders of Knights, and the Emperor was keen on finishing off the rebellion his wayward son started, you honestly don't believe that someone would get all the information out of Suzaku? He would give it too. He just proved his loyalty, and there's no reason he'd betray that as soon as he got the position.

For the...I don't even know anymore number of times, Suzaku was happy to let her "change her ways" before Zero shot Euphie in the chest right in front of him. He gave her only two more chances. One was fighting her on the side of the building before Lelouch lured him to the Academy. At that point, he swore that he would kill her if she stood in the way of getting Zero. Then one final time at Kamejima. There, he only asked her why she would follow someone who would use her like that.

She ran off after he pointed a gun at her.

There. I did your damn job for you. That italicized sentence is the only evidence you have to support your argument. You've never used it once. I've used it, over and over as a lead in. Like I will right now. That is the only supporting evidence that he, "let her get away." But he had Lelouch to worry about. Why bother. He's still disgusted at her support of him. If anything, Suzaku may have hoped this finally changed her ways. But I doubt it. Suzaku wasn't the same after Zero threatened the school. That was just one more thing that pissed him off and pushed him towards the edge. Finally confirming it was Lelouch was the the final straw. That is what broke Suzaku. He knew who Lelouch really was. He realized that Lelouch could shoot his own sister, and worse, make her do those horrible things for his own ends. One wonders if that is why Suzaku wouldn't listen to him. If Lelouch could shoot Euphie, whom he was fond of, would he really care about Nunnally? etc.

There was no reason after she ran to still try and "save" her. He would report her involvement just like the rest of the Black Knights who are currently in prison.

Suzaku doesn't care anymore. He'd tell everyone about it. He's only concerned about killing Lelouch (end of episode 1). If they didn't know before the first episode this season that Kallen was in the Black Knights, they sure do now.



Returning to the foundation of our ongoing argument (In case you forgot, and I know you did):

I sincerely doubt Kallen will every be returning to the Academy.

[Shinji Ikari]

I'm just rewatching the first series and I'm finding myself skipping every part where Euphie appear. God I hate her whining and idealistic bullshit, and I say hallelujah to the fact that she died horribly. Amen.

And thank god Suzaku has refrained from trying to excuse and justify his actions of evil, finally he is stepping up to be the biatch he really is with no cute stuff going on, god I hate that. Just hope he continues like that, showing his true self where he is just like Lelouch, the end justifies the means, only worse since he is a hypocrite.

[KrayZ33]

I'm just rewatching the first series and I'm finding myself skipping every part where Euphie appear. God I hate her whining and idealistic bullshit, and I say hallelujah to the fact that she died horribly. Amen.

And thank god Suzaku has refrained from trying to excuse and justify his actions of evil, finally he is stepping up to be the biatch he really is with no cute stuff going on, god I hate that. Just hope he continues like that, showing his true self where he is just like Lelouch, the end justifies the means, only worse since he is a hypocrite.

! (really thats all i have to say, its so true)

[Ryllharu]

I'm just rewatching the first series and I'm finding myself skipping every part where Euphie appear. God I hate her whining and idealistic bullshit, and I say hallelujah to the fact that she died horribly. Amen.

And thank god Suzaku has refrained from trying to excuse and justify his actions of evil, finally he is stepping up to be the biatch he really is with no cute stuff going on, god I hate that. Just hope he continues like that, showing his true self where he is just like Lelouch, the end justifies the means, only worse since he is a hypocrite.

Really good post on the second paragraph.

But...I have to disagree with the Euphie parts. I'll admit I enjoyed her most of the time, except when she saved Nina during the hotel jacking, and when she saved her from being beaten into the ground by the MPs when Nina tried to stalk her at the museum. (But that's a problem with table-raping Nina, not Euphie.)

Euphie was as Kallen called her, a doll-princess. If she had any failing, it was her naiveté. She was coddled by her half-brothers (Lelouch and Schnizel) and especially by her sister. Euphie was never really exposed to the harsh reality of the world. Cornelia kept her safe up until the events of the series, and tried to keep her out of the loop then, but failed due to her absence or Euphie finally growing some confidence.

What I liked about that was Euphie truly believed in all the idealistic bullshit she kept spouting. She honestly believed in the best of people, and that everyone would be able to eventually get along. But as Lelouch said when she announced her idea for a Japanese zone during the school festival, the world just doesn't work that way.

Lelouch, Nunnally, Suzaku, Cornelia, Schnizel, and maybe even Clovis all knew how harsh the real world could be. Though perhaps Nunnally had forgotten. That's why Cornelia and Suzaku liked her so much. Even Lelouch, until her ideas clashed with him. Still, Lelouch knew that in one move, Euphie defeated everything about his movement. "Zero" would look like an asshole either way. He would have to surrender. Of course, Lelouch said exactly as much to her face right before he accidentally Geassed her.

She was that little shiny spot you really didn't want to believe existed in this kind of series. And as it turned out, in the world they all live in, that light couldn't survive on it's own. Karma came to snuff it out.

[KrayZ33]

wow, you just reminded me of that lesbian girl ... she showed up in the second episode too and i instantly felt hatred when i saw her STUPID FACE... kill that maniac-girl alrdy, this girl is by FAR the most annoying anime character in my anime-history.

GOD it makes me angry just thinking about it, really... why did you do that? now i won't be able to sleep

[DDBen]

@Ryllharu

I don't have a clue what your talking about in this thread I clearly timestamped the scene in R2 of Suzaku letting Kallen go. He talks her INTO leaving after pointing his gun at her he never even looks her way if she shot at that point she could have killed him with no danger to Zero. Even Suzaku can't dodge bullets fired at the back of his head.

On top of that when showed wanted posters for the Black Knights Kallen DOES NOT have one and being the ace of there Knightmare pilots she would certainly have one if Suzaku reported her. Those posters were still up no matter if the person was dead, caught or wanted so there is ZERO reason she wouldn't have one IF she was wanted thats more then enough proof Suzaku didn't go back and turn her in to be hunted later.

as for time stamps 6:04-6:14 in R1 Ep 2 is when they go over the posters anyone of Kallens rank in the Black Knights that was being hunted would be in that lineup.

[Ryllharu]

That's a good enough reason as any. You may as well have convinced me that Suzaku didn't give her up. I'm sticking with that he would have if not for heading to the Emperor immediately with Lelouch in tow.

But someone else very well could have. At the very least as her being a half-Japanese rather than Britannian (obvious in the real world, not so much in anime).

We still have to wonder though, about her presence in the Tower. She should have been recognized. The only slave laborers were Japanese. Kallen was being abused just the same as all the others. The only question was how long was she there. She could have been there for only a few days in preparation for the retrieval of Lelouch, or she could have been there for most of last year.

She had support certainly, but either way she was being considered a slave. That only gives me the impression that someone outed her, only maybe not as Zero's Personal Guard.

[DDBen]

My impression of why Kallen was working as a bunny girl was she applied for it because they knew Lelouch on that day would come to play chess. She had her Knightmare key in her cleavage and drops a transmitter at the feet of Lelouch as soon as she she's him its known as going undercover and had nothing to do with them knowing who she was or else she wouldn't have been able to have EITHER of those electronics on hand.

[Ryllharu]

I wasn't under the impression one "applied" to work on the construction of nor within the Tower of Babylon. All of it was forced labor.

The Japanese were punished for their rebellion, whether they participated or not. Kallen was hiding the Gurren's key as a lighter. Maybe she went in with all this knowing it was part of a plan, but she was treated anything but kindly by the patrons and owners there. They knew she was Japanese, and they may have known who she was, just not how important.

[DDBen]

They couldn't have known she was in the Black Knights or she would have been arrested regardless of who she was in the Black Knights they were not just after the higher ups. They clearly could tell she was at least part Japanese and thats why she was badly treated. I mean if they knew who she really was they would know she was a member of a prestigious family as well and then assuming her father hasn't gone belly up one would imagine she wouldn't be in that position in the first place.

I am under the impression though the Japanese are simply using that for a job and they have always been treated like crap outside the ghetto. Remember the guy with the Hotdog cart in season one who let them beat the crap out of him and still groveled to even random students to try and sell them a "California dog" was it? Thats just the norm of how elevens are treated inside the city and I am of the impression that the people working in the tower are doing so willingly being its the only way for them to survive. The job options likely got even worse at this point for elevens so they have no right to complain even if they may seem like slaves to us.

[shinta|hikari]

Even if it was forced labor, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kallen herself did not create the conditions for her to be selected as one. It should not be too hard, since she is a hot babe and an 11(even if only half) at the same time.

I really doubt a black knight member would simply be put to work after being outed, especially if she was still in possession of a knightmare key. Terrorists are extremely dangerous, especially in CG, and are treated with the utmost caution by the Britannians. I doubt they would put one in service of VIPs without even making sure she was unarmed (a km key is considered a weapon I think).

[Kraco]

I think it's pretty obvious she went there just for the operation. Seeing how they treated the bunny girls, they probably needed to get new ones all the time, so getting a job there on a short notice was likely no problem for someone as hot as Kallen. I seriously doubt she had been working there for long, as it seems anyone working there for long sooner or later would have needed to grant the patrons some sexual favours, and I certainly don't see Kallen willingly suffer anything like that.

[Ryllharu]

... I certainly don't see Kallen willingly suffer anything like that.

She went to school often enough, didn't she?

[Kraco]

Umm... I said working there in the tower would likely mean getting molested or even raped by some rougher customers (as we saw), which is why I doubt she had been there for long, and only went there for this particular operation. I don't believe going to school posed such dangers.

[Ryllharu]

It was a joke...come on.

My arguments have apparently gotten a little stale. Let's try for one more topic change before the next episode airs. Three more questions come out of this episode:

- Will we be seeing a love triangle...er hexagon this season? There's already C.C., but can we toss in Kallen for sure this season? When he put his jacket over her, Kallen gave Lelouch a rather strange look. Will her idolization of Zero shift fully onto Lelouch as she realizes that he never was Zero, he was always Lelouch, just as he told Euphie on Kamejima? Then we can also toss in Kaguya's proposals from last season.

But could we also include Shirley? She's in the preview, and if she was brainwashed to accept Rollo's existence instead of Nunnally's she may have forgotten all about what happened before with Lelouch. She'll very likely fall in love with him again.

- I mentioned this before, but didn't realize before that "Britannia" doesn't include the UK at all. It's pretty much just North and South America. The map never really showed any of Europe in season 1, so with the name we all just assumed they had taken the two Americas and moved westward.

- Lastly, all the new Britannian Knightmares for the Knights of the Round and Rollo (whether he is one or not) are based off the Lancelot. Before, only the Gawain, Gurren and Todou's Burai Kai (or was that the one before Raksharta hooked him up?) could hope to compete with the Lancelot, largely due to the superiority of the Gawain, or the excellent piloting skills of Kallen or Todou. Now that there are essential 12 or 13 Lancelot models, are we going to see the Black Knights severely under-arsenaled? That year off took a huge toll on their combat abilities simply in terms of pilots alone, and now we have a severe gap in technology as well.

Yes, Raksharta was free to do as she pleased in the Chinese Federation, but she certainly lacked the resources that she once had under the full strength Black Knights. We've seen the Gurren get a float module in the OP, but one has to wonder how they will compete with the pink-haired Loli of the Round's Virtue...err Mordred (according the the site) and other Lancelot/Gawain based models.

[Kraco]

Though it might be a boring point to make, but if this season invests in fights as much as the first one, I doubt we have seen all Rakshata can pull out of her pockets. If, however, this season will present the situation in a light where the BK can only rely all the more heavily on underhanded guerrilla tactics, then I suppose it will be far more indirect what comes to battles because, like you said, the BK is underpowered. Still, we have already seen Rakshata so it would make little sense if she has no role to play. I hope we will see something totally unexpected like we did in the first season. Copies of the enemy tech are boring.

[Shinji Ikari]

But then we do have another interesting question bubbling up into the situation. If Rakshata does indeed pull a few rabbits out of her hat, who will pilot the new ones? Because if you view it from this point, Karen will either get a new unit if they get even better units (since guren is the best so far) or there will come several units that are just below the guren, and right now the ones who are piloting the ones below are Toudou and his original people and then their units would be given to the weaker knights.

Since I believe something better will come, seeing as how Rakshata just loves to play with new toys and seeing as the enemy units are way better than the things they have... I would like to think that a few new people will drop in to pilot these new units.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, if the Chinese are allies with BK, then the Chinese swordsman will get one I think, either immediately, or when his original one gets destroyed. Maybe Rollo too, if he joins their ranks and wrecks his prototype. (prototype mass production model based off the Lancelot means that it's NOT currently in mass production, doesn't it?)

[Kraco]

That's a valid question I've been wondering as well. Especially if Suzaku isn't anymore the only ace the Empire has (well, Cornelia was another, for sure) but the whole order of the round table will strike against the BK. The BK will need some high profile pilots if battles play a significant role.