Gundam 00 Episode 15

[Yukimura]

When they went E5 I remember her saying switched, not moved. Switching plans mid battle is not the same as advancing in phases in the same plan. But who knows what she was thinking.

My point was that while it was remarkably stupid to go in the first place, they did go, and there was no way anyone could have planned a way out of that scenario with only what resources they had available. Calling someone stupid for not coming up with a plan to escape an inescapable situation is just unfair. I would agree that they should have tried to find another way to stop the terrorists but considering the ship was off at the asteroid base the only real option they had was to go within normal weapons range and take them out that way, thus making going a total gamble on the endurance of the pilots.

[Mhalador]

I'm going to have to agree with the multiple cell theory. The guy from the U.N. (don't know his name) mentioned he was going to talk to the other Surveyors, I'm guessing he might be the Surveyor of the new group of 3 Gundams and the Chinese girl would be the Surveyor of the current gundams.

[Naruto_RNG]

you're missing the point if she did use the info, none CB grp would of find out she has a connection to CB since the line used was non-secure and it could of been traced. I really don't c why either of them would be idiot cause if she had used it her identity would of been revealed, they might of have lost this battle but win at the same time cause they have a very big lead to CB.
anyway...
I loved this eps till that red gundam showed up. I was so pissed I wanted to punch something lol. So this new gundam pilot have a chance of being super soilders too right with the intro to dragoons beam weapons? I hope they're in odds with this veda dude.

[fireheart]

Sigh...

Naruto_RNG: I really luv how people read other posts properly before posting *sarcasm* so I'll just quote myself

"And who says she has to use the exact information, she doesn't need to know every troop or what plan they're using it's enough to just use the information that they're all going to join and fight them. There's no specific information there that would reveal her as part of CB."

The whole point that makes her stupid is that she didn't plan a counter attack or rather she should have devised a plan where the Gundams actually fight back in case of need which would have also increased their chance of survival unless any of you think standing still and getting shot at for 15 hours is the best plan ever because if you do I highly disagree. Like I said here was a chance for her to actually make a plan that uses the Gundams and teamwork instead of each of them doing their thing they could always work together, but gosh that is of course the most silly plan ever.

Yuki: Checked the episode just to make sure (conclave-mendoi) and nope she doesn't mention switching she said it should be proceeding from B4 to E5. That should mean I was correct in that she assumed it would to work like a charm. Also seeing as the ship was docked at an 300 kilometers from the middle point of earth and the moon also since Kyrios and Allelujah was onboard I highly doubt it'd be impossible to have moved the ship into a place where Dynames could have snipped from. Granted weather is a factor but hey they should be able to monitor that as well and seeing as it seemed quite sunny when the terrorists where gunned down I'd say it was quite possible.

Again my main point for why she was stupid is that she didn't devise a plan for attacking the HRL, Union & AEU incase they couldn't escape. Just hoping they would escape and not have a battle plan for what they should do if they couldn't is plain stupid and to naive when the opponent is just that much more.

Darknodin: Seems plausible enough for me since she never mentioned the name of any Gundams which I take it she would have. Only if it's as you say then she's even more stupid and if I was a meistar and survived that I'd beat the crap out of her and possibly break her arms and fingers to make sure she can't drink. Because that's just reckless stupid to not look after the Gundams and their pilots. If this whole thing was planned and it went the way she expected it to then she is a bigger moron for endangering their lives with a plan devised for them to get pummeled for 15 hours straight and hopefully survive also for not taking into account what Soma can cause Allelujah unless he never mentioned anything about that to her.

[rockmanj]

Well, I don't think that a plan to attack all of those forces would have been prudent at all; I mean we still don't know the point of that scenario, but in that situation, it makes no sense to recklessly attack superior forces, and most likely superior talents. I think the best thing to do in that situation was to defend and wait for a lull i.e. just survive and wait for a lull in the conflict (which is kind of a bad look).

[TheBladeChild]

Edit: Found this which is suppose to be the meistars for the three new gundams eins, zwei and drei
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2237/02310561da3.jpg

Lol nice evil looking Haro. Im not one for freckles but Its about time they had a female gundam meister.

[Yukimura]

I could stand to do without a young female with a Gundam. Young female pilots have a knack for being annoying, hyper-active, drama queens and this girls goofy looks and childish smiles don't give me much hope that she'll be any different. I hope her Gundam is interesting at least.

[animus]

Sumeragi should be a Meister, that way we can see her in that tight pilot suit, and she won't be annoying.

[Yukimura]

That's what all the pool scenes are for, I think her character knows how hateable she is so she tries to put out fanservice so lessing the blow. Sumeragi x Wang Liu-Mei anyone?

[TheBladeChild]

That's what all the pool scenes are for, I think her character knows how hateable she is so she tries to put out fanservice so lessing the blow. Sumeragi x Wang Liu-Mei anyone?

All Im waiting for are the doujins.

[Ryllharu]

I still can't but help to think that the Meistar's we've known and hated (or loved for the Tieria and Lockon fangirls and boys out there) will cross swords with the new three. It just wouldn't be a proper gundam series without real Gundams beating the hell out of each other. The only contenders we've had so far are Graham (due to his insane piloting skills), Soma (due to her durable-as-hell Toazi and always facing seizure-boy), and Ali-Serges.

Only, Soma has never come close to defeating Hallelujah and is always forced to withdraw, Ali-Serges always loses a part to dumbass Setsuna, and Graham...well, he's been doing pretty well. There has to be more than just these three posing an actual one-on-one combat threat.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by G Gundam's absurdly large cast.

Still, episodes with even a little bit of Soma (her name is most likely a Brave New World reference by the way, as well as the drink in the Vedas that makes gods, Gods, like Greek ambrosia) always seem better than those without.

However, now that they face even more Gundams and probably lost everything they gained with so big losses in this operation, I wonder if they are going to just say "to hell with them", and switch to APs and even tactical nukes just to get rid of the enemy.

The latter I have to say, does not have even the slightest chance of happening. There's no way in hell anyone would be using nukes. I mean, the only alternative for Marina's country was to BEG the U.N. for a power receiver. If Iran is going for nuclear power today, there's no reason why Azadistan could not as well. If nuclear power is banned, armaments are definitely out.

[Naruto_RNG]

@fireheart

"And who says she has to use the exact information, she doesn't need to know every troop or what plan they're using it's enough to just use the information that they're all going to join and fight them. There's no specific information there that would reveal her as part of CB."

1st bold: and how is she suppoed to come up with a plan then?
I don't know if u remember a few eps back about those terroist cells and how fast they found out where their base were. You don't think they'll be able to find that they're supposed tarining plan was leaked beforehand by some1 over a regular channel?

I believe rockmanj hit the nail right on the spot.

It was a hit and run plan, hence the escape route they made. every1 of them knew it was going to be a huge battle if they did go in, cause it was all over the news. u wanted her to come up with a plan and be prepared to fight that many MS if the escape plan didn't work? I don't know wut u were watching but the only gundam that didn't had its usual stuff was setsuna's, everyone else had wut we've seen so far. I would of find more stupid if they did beat all those MS just with four of them. the gundams had long over due spanking and they got it. I believe a lot of ppl enjoyed this defeat over all the victories gundams got so far.

[Kraco]

The latter I have to say, does not have even the slightest chance of happening. There's no way in hell anyone would be using nukes. I mean, the only alternative for Marina's country was to BEG the U.N. for a power receiver. If Iran is going for nuclear power today, there's no reason why Azadistan could not as well. If nuclear power is banned, armaments are definitely out.

So far this series has tried to establish a conception that wars and terrorism can be eradicated with building sized robots. Now, before the Gundams, the superiority in this field was held by the three super powers. In practice they could have ensured (before the CB) that the rest of the world wouldn't have any nuclear power, and in order to keep their fancy mobile suits as a definitive force they might even have opted to do that.

Now, nuclear power might have been removed from the world or it might have been removed from everywhere else but where the super powers would still want to keep it. Obviously they don't need it for electricity anymore (unless for carrier ships, who knows), but it doesn't mean they couldn't keep some small stockpiles of nukes stashed away for something truly unexpected.

[masamuneehs]

I'm going to have to agree with the multiple cell theory. The guy from the U.N. (don't know his name) mentioned he was going to talk to the other Surveyors, I'm guessing he might be the Surveyor of the new group of 3 Gundams and the Chinese girl would be the Surveyor of the current gundams.

thank you. I couldn't believe that nobody else was talking about this.

Guys, look at that new Gundam, the one that saves Setsuna at the end.
Look at it. Anything stand out to you?

It's shooting out RED
evil
RED
LIKE THE DEVIL


And in the OP the one that showed up in this episode adorns the screen while the J-pop singer joyfully drawls about "destroyed the things I want to protected", it defines foreshadowing melodrama.

They're SO supa' evil!

Tell me this doesn't look evil to you?

Also, just like my good buddy Mhal over here was saying, Alejandro Corner (always been lingering in the shadows, creepy U.N. pedo with ponytail) absolutely expressed that he has loyalties to this group of "other Surveyors" and that his "job here may soon come to an end"

Now, it's as clear as him not being anywhere in the OP: Alejandro Corner is involved with someone else. He appears to have always been cooperating with CB... but now these Surveyors and the new Gundams show up... If they're not one and the same, this show is getting absurdly complex, and he says that "his job here may soon come to an end". What job do you think that is that he was doing?

Alejandro Corner, from where I'm sitting, is someone that these Surveyors decided should represent them in dealing with Celestial Being. I will take the small leap of confidence it takes to say that they're related to these new Gundams, if not outright controlling them, and that this other group Alejandro is a part of (he says "the other Surveyors", and since the question was about where he was going, I took it as meaning he was going to go meet with other Surveyors like himself) has the "alternate agenda" that Saji's sister is trying to figure out.

Livonze, Alejandro's boi servant, had a line that seemed to promise some potentially interesting future drama implications also.

Considering Alejandro has always been sketchy, hasn't really done anything ever yet, I'm banking on the next big drama maker originating from his Surveyor group. Like many episodes back, I'm thinking Tieria might even act upon his stubborn loyalty to "the cause" and go with them. Once again, he appears in places and times of this OP that seem to place him with the enemy, or at least separate from the other Gundam pilots. Having saved the "inept" CB Gundams, the Surveyors will steadily assert their aims and evil agenda over the collective Gundam efforts, until our four main Gundams are forced to recognize them as the true evils and do the classic "I have Gundam!" "I have Gundam too!" "One of us is going to die!" epic showdown shit (possibly with the support of the once villified power bloc elite pilots)

This hopefully won't take more than five episodes for them to draw out.

The three powers are pussies for not using the right hardware and just trying to kill the fucking Gundams...
Now that they face even more Gundams and probably lost everything they gained with so big losses in this operation, I wonder if they are going to just say "to hell with them", and switch to APs and even tactical nukes just to get rid of the enemy.

Agreed. Especially because, now, you might as well figure your best chances are in destroying the damn thing and trying to recover whatever technology you can from its slag leftovers. Non-lethal force blows.

Like Yuki says, Allelujah is a huge liability in any mission that may involve the HRL, and thusly should not be included in any soirée that could possibly involve that world power.

i hope their suits have...facilities inside of them).

Agreed, and agreed. Maybe it's what gives the GN particles that golden tint?

I have to give it to Lockon for having the coolest moment in the episode...when he snipes Joshua with the handgun...absolutely classic; especially how slowly the gun moves towards Joshua (remember..."He just LOVES sneak attacks")

true. that part was pretty awesome. Joshua blew. I like how Lockon originally said that line as ironic in reference to his whole terror bombed childhood, but he absolutely defines the "that's so sick it's almost unfair" school of warfare, particularly his long-range, always fatal shot illness. He also just iced those trucks, which is like stopping to stomp on a pregnant orphan's stomach after you just straight up burned the orphanage to the ground. He ranks only behind Hal in badass piloting shit.

although, also, Ali's mobile armor mind-fucker was pretty cool. totally had Setsuna.

(Sumeragi) she knew of the battle plan that the factions were using in order to capture the Gundams and she just sent all four of them straight in there even though they had 800 something mobile suits to attack them with.

it's a pretty damn stupid plan considering she just sent them to get shot at for what 15+ hours before any kind of back up arrived.

I still can't figure out why they went there in the first place. Would have been ten times more effective to take out a likely lax secure, but crucial, facility with each of your Gundams while the elites were all getting sand in their pilot suits out in this 'exercise'.

I can only think of three explanations for Sumeragi's decision, and I'm going with the second:
1. She got fed false data from the scientist after all.
2. She decided not to act on that data / go with the plan anyway
3. She's evil somehow.

Crap about 'proceeding to E5'

Sumeragi was clearly speaking about what she thought the enemy was going to do at that point. Because it was in HRL territory, they'd be the first to get a real crack at capturing the Gundams, so it'd make sense that she refer to the fact that Allelujah would very possibly be facing Soma's unit.

I want to commend the AEU's officers and command structure. Whoever thought up those Enacts that separate flyer compartments and leave the rest as a self-destruct bomb needs a bigger research grant budget. They really looked to have their shit together in coordinating the siege on the Gundams. That new chick commander might even be able to teach Sumeragi something.

Best piloting nod goes to the HRL this time around, taking on two Gundams (albeit one Failelujah) at a time with just one squadron, eventually splitting them apart. Also, their "faceless warriors" shone once again, dodging well and taking advantage of the terrain created by CB's supposed 'escape route' mud tunnel death trap. Ali had the best individual results, but also the advantage of a new unit and his enemy being very exhausted. The AEU "ace" and crew did quite a number on Tieria also. Crap from the OverFlags and all Gundams except for Lockon and Hal.

Overall, I enjoyed it, even if getting saved by $ELL MOAR MODEL KIT$ is a pretty weak deus ex machina resolution.

[fireheart]

Naruto_RNG: I love how you point out things for me *no sarcasm intended* first of all you said it yourself it was all over the news about that training exercise in that case do you really think there would be no information what so ever about it? I'm pretty sure that some information would be available, first of all the amount of mobile suits participating was well known. So I highly doubt there wouldn't be any further information whether they wanted it or not something that big will probably cause interest as it's a first so people would try and find out some more maybe even locations etc. Next point that this is leading to is that it's not impossible for tactical information to get out by some fanatics etc for example where the different bases are located.

rockmanj & Naruto_RNG: When did I ever mention that they should fight until they won over all those suits? Now that's reckless the point of it is to fight and get into a position from where they could escape, there's not much point in sticking around and waging war. But true I never said that since I figured it'd be somewhat obvious but I guess that's my mistake for assuming it. Say you were doing a hit and run, what would you do if it failed? Honestly would you just stand still and take a beating like never before or would you actually do something? Surrendering is out of the question, so just think about it if it were you would whether you're in a Gundam or not would you really just stand still as the other encircle and beat you up and keep beating you up for 15 hours straight till you collapse? The other fact that wait for a chance to escape? Psh that is kinda naive if you ask me they said so themselves there's 864 units against 4 of them like they'd actually let up hell they can sleep eat and everything while someone else bombs them and attacks them and then go out and switch shifts so that's not going to happen and they know it.

And rockmanj you mentioned they're fighting superior forces and superior talents and there's no point in it. Well guess what in your own way you just said there's no point in the whole show because that's exactly what they've been doing this whole time. Mention one time just one time that they've fought against forces that are less then them the least they've fought is a one on one and that's still just equal amount and not less. I can't think of even once when there's been less mobile suits to fight the Gundams. And superior talents I wouldn't know about that, they may have better technology and all that but that doesn't mean that they're third rate pilots the only ones that show they're better are just a handful of them, the rest have just gotten their ass handed to them.

The point about where the base can be located is important even if they didn't have it they should be smart enough to calculate it themselves without Sumeragi meaning from the bombardments and from where movement of the enemy or rather from where they send them from. For example if they manage to actually use again teamwork and fight back if they manage to take it to example the aeu base then they would have a better fighting chance of escaping because for one I doubt the bombardment would keep shooting at them since they're in the middle of a base. There is of course a chance that the other two will completely ignore that and still keep shooting but that also work in their favor because that means that they would also take out the enemy forces around that base meaning less for them to fight. Why would this work so well? First if the bombardment stops and they're in their base they can fight back more properly and they don't even have to destroy the base just the bombardment units and a couple of suits on their way through. Just getting there they have a higher chance of escaping than if they try to endure it. I doubt there's another base ready to attack them behind that base so it'd give them enough space to just run like hell. Second if the bombardment keeps going and destroy the units around that base means they can concentrate more on just getting the hell away from the base in the opposite direction, the bombardment can only reach so far and the Gundams should be fast enough to escape once they've cleared that and forces that may follow them can be disposed of by the Gundams and frankly Setsuna shown that he at least can evade getting shot at and move away from things like that except for when he was covering and protecting Virtue. So he should be able to do a hit and run on perusing forces while Dynames snipes at some or Virtue just crush all of them.

Again I'll ask the both of you, would you really just stand there and take all that to just be pummeled or would you do something about your situation? I've made my point clear why I think Sumeragi is an idiot true even if I didn't specifically say that she should have made an attack plan in order to give them a better chance of escaping.

masamuneehs: Think they went in to attack the terrorists that were about to attack the uranium thing that was located around the training ground. If they blew that up it could have resulted in a outright war between all three major forces that's not to say that it wasn't a war already.

[Naruto_RNG]

I don't know wut u were expecting them to do? dude they were out numbered greatly, done. Nobody could of come with a plan to escape against that odd not even veda lol. again I ask u wut were u watchin? they were being shelled from all directions how could they get out or fight back when they're being attacked from all directions. I'll fight my way through the front while I'll leave my back wide open to get attacked. They had no choice but to sheild themselves. I think the reason they got divided into 2 grps was because if one team got into trouble other one could of come and back them up. and no they didn't go there so they could prevent outright war between all 3 major forces. they went there cause they didn't have any choice. they knew it was a trap from the start, set by 3 major powers, if they didn't show up everything they said about war and peace and crap like that so far would of been for nothing.
Why would they endanger someting they came to protect? this is regarding to your gundams going to base theory.
I respect and welcome your ideas but wut I don't understand is why you're presisting on something they didn't had any chance to win or get out of. She is an idiot true but I don't think any sort of planning would of helped them to get out of this fight. Thats wut makes this show great. As I mentioned before a lot of ppl were waiting for this fight and the author gave it to us. enjoy or in your case hate this eps b/c from now on they'll be winning all of their fights which makes it boring again but oh well its a gundam show they have to win.

[fireheart]

I've already given examples on what they could have done, so what don't you understand about what they could do? Do you know what teamwork means? Because it doesn't mean go ahead on your own and leave your back open so someone can shot you. Basically you can have some of them move on out in order to form a path while the others block any incoming attacks/troops from behind. I'm not saying it would work but it's a hell of a better plan than standing still and getting your ass handed to you for several hours in a row. Also I mentioned that Hallelujah managed to stand through the bombardment and he didn't even flinch so claiming that they could only stand there and get bombarded seems pretty untrue if you ask me.

I'd like to ask you the same thing what were you watching. I'm pretty sure I got a better idea on what went down than you do. Because what do you mean they had to? I'll give you some quotes from the same ep and if you still think they had to go just because otherwise everything they said about peace would have been a lie then I wonder seriously. First of all they said they'd attack people that cause war, provoke war and wage war against each other. A military exercise does not provoke war, cause war nor is it an actual war against each other in what way does that clash with what CB stands for? Also according to your view of it then the Gundams should have gone in there to fight all of those troops which means your idea that it was a hit and run is contradicting yourself.

And no they divided into two groups so that if the other group got grounded which they did the other group was to secure a path which they did. However the forces responded earlier than expected as it shows with Tieria reaction. Which is why a back up plan for escaping would be needed cutting your way though is at least smarter than getting beat and so far none of your arguments proves that it would be better to stand still.

"The Gundams are heading towards the enriched uranium facility?"
Now why would the Gundams ever head towards that place? Hmmm I wonder

"Why did no one realize that there were terrorists heading towards the facility?"
Wow look at that terrorist going towards the uranium facility... what ever could they be planning? And ohh my what would have happened if they blew up an uranium facility while all 3 major powers where there? Could it possibly lead to war in any way? Yeah I'm sarcastic a lot of times nothing personal.,

I don't really care if they get beat up or win, if they're going to get beat up at least make it better than that and have them beat them while they're actually fighting back.

[Yukimura]

Your base attacking plan seems to assume the Gundams can just ignore physical damage and fly through anything undisturbed. But if that was the case why attack the base at all, they could have just flown away from the start ignoring the large number of artillery shells raining down on them and the dozens of mobile suits trying to grab them.

Unfortunately, Anno Domini Gundams are susceptible to physical damage and momentum transfer so if they had just tried to fly through the bombardment they would have been knocked around repeatedly and that would have created openings for them to get grabbed by the ground forces, which they'd then have to repel before trying to escape again with the exact same results. I suspect that's exactly what they did for all those hours:
1) try to run,
2) get forced to take cover thanks to artillery,
3) get harried by a mobile suit squad for a while,
4) destroy/repel that squad,
5) back to 1.

It's like fighting a pack of wolves, they surround you and just keep attacking your weak points trying to wear you down until you can't do anything anymore.
Each time they would have gotten more tired, more prone to making a mistake, and from as time went on the skill level of the opponents would have probably been getting higher. A potentially viable solution would have been trying to escape upwards, I don't think the Gundams can make orbit but they could potentially have a ceiling higher than the Flags/Enacts, however flying up would still subject them to bombardment for a while which could affect their ascent.

[ForteCross]

yet we never saw them flying up fast... so thats not even a option

[masamuneehs]

i also imagine they'd be shot down if they tried to escape that way. Maybe Kyrios makes it out... but probably not Virtue...

I could only think of one strategy, and it was absurdly risky and prone to getting screwed... (It was basically a feign surge, reverse, attack weak "pursuers" from backside, break through, utilizing Virtue's big 'clear the way' bazooka to clear out the pursuers,and Kyrios being able to carry that fat fuck out of there... Not to mention Lockon and Setsuna would have to be tearing it up on point to keep any hope alive at the end of the huge enemy force closing the gap on them...