Gundam 00 Episode 15

[fireheart]

Yuki: Actually the example I set doesn't assume anything of a sort that's just your impression of it. I'm quite aware that they'd get shot a lot but I never assumed that they were going to fly through it until the end of it, it's not like they're only able to fly they have legs and they can move pretty fast on the ground as well. I took that into consideration and frankly whether they stand still or try to move the bombardment wouldn't change. But like I said for the third time now Hallelujah managed to stand without screaming like a baby while getting bombarded so it's not impossible to actually do that, the possibility of standing through a bombardment and then move exists.

Also I never claimed the plan would work, just that in my opinion it's a chance for survival without sacrificing any units and without getting your ass handed to you for more than half a day. Here's another thing that teamwork could do, Dynames needs a little time for sniping to aim etc and his defense isn't the best at those times. So what would happen if he just takes cover under Virtues GN field? First he'd get defense plus it shouldn't be impossible for Virtue to move while having that field activated. Secondly with communication they could drop it for a second just so that Dynames could snipe at whatever. You can have Exia and Kyrios try and secure a way in the front. As long as Exia is on the ground and uses it's mobility it gets harder to hit him of course it's not like he can escape everything but he'd be able to evade some or most of it while moving forward plus he's got a shield to help block after all. Kyrios I'm more unsure of but it's not impossible that he can guard and move forward. This of course requires the Gundams to met up but like I said teamwork, which the Gundams for the most part haven't displayed.

If someone gets hit so they fall down it's not like they can't fight back in that position and teamwork does require you too look after each other so you'd have for example someone shot anyone trying to grab which ever Gundam it is. Not to mention if someone falls from the bombardment there are three options for the enemy to take two of those options work in favor of the Gundams. One would require the enemy to fly through the bombardment to the Gundam in order to secure it so unless they're good enough to evade every shot they will get shot and that's not good for them. Second would be to stop with the bombardment which gives the Gundam more time to regroup and act which isn't good for the enemy either since they can advance pretty fast while they're not shooting while taking down incoming enemies. Third would be to keep up with the bombardment which basically means nothing changes so it's just the same status quo as before which isn't exactly a bad thing either.

Another thing about this that's good is that the Gundams aren't spread out which means that there's chances that the three forces start acting and getting in each others way. It didn't look like they were working with each other as they were taking down Gundams on their own but if say one Gundam get hit and fall to the ground and the HRL and Union want to go in and secure the Gundam while the AEU keeps up it's bombardment their forces are about to get hit. All three want the upper hand on the other so chances of them getting in each others way aren't impossible. They may even start fighting each other over it which of course goes against CB principle but hey if they d that just shot them.

Like I said it's a fighting chance at the very least and as long as they get to the base they'd have more than a fighting chance plus they'd probably be able to do it in far less time than standing still for that long seeing as it also requires some swift acting.

[Ryllharu]

Paragraphs. Please. (Yes, that neg rep was me.) You are incredibly hard to debate with because it's simply too hard to see what you are trying to say.

But, I sucked it up anyway and read your post.

CB operates as Strike Teams. A pair (and from what we've seen, often just one) flies down, or in Exia's case more often than not, comes out of stealth, annihilates the target, and zips away. They are not trained well to do teamwork, as the forces of the three nations obviously are.

This episode also clearly displays that the Gundams are not equipped or possibly designed for anything but strike missions. Sure, they have immense survivability or they would have been wiped out mere hours in the battle, but nearly every weakness they have was exploited. Virtue was not allowed to charge up, Dynames was separated and then stopped in close combat by a very fast strike by Graham. Kyrios was similarly isolated, but the Sergei learned that when it begins to act strangely, you need to back off and then can move in again.

The Gundams do not play defensively. If they did, then they probably would do as you illustrated in your post. It would make a lot of sense, but they cannot afford to stick around for more than a few minutes at best. Sumeragi knew something had changed almost immediately, and they were to gather at the rendezvous point in under an hour of the operation start.

[Kraco]

Sure, they have immense survivability or they would have been wiped out mere hours in the battle, but nearly every weakness they have was exploited.

This is probably a good point to remind the largest part of their survivability in this particular case was caused by the simple fact the three powers wanted intact suits and thus they used very gentle munitions. However, a thing like that can't be counted as a factor of survivability generally. This of course makes your point of them being weapons of strike missions all the more valid.

And honestly with pilots like that they hardly could do team work even if they wanted. They have a defective super soldier with a split personality, a totally unpredictable traumatized former child soldier, a mad slaughterer who wants to kill even his own comrades... Not your prime material for forming any coherent teams, surely.

[masamuneehs]

from what we've seen, I think the Gundams work best in the pairs of Setsuna with Lockon (short and long range, melee and ranged, both pretty stealthy when need be) and Tieria with Allelujah (heavy and light firepower, power and speed). Also, Lockon seems to be able to deal with Setsuna (although usually by simply not dealing with him).

Allelujah is wimpy enough to take orders from Tieria (and we know Tieria enjoys being in charge), but this pair is by far the weakest when you take account of both pilots' fragile mental conditions and their suit types. When Tieria needs help quickly, trauma boy might be having an episode... and whenever Allelujah goes off and does something remotely outside of the mission plan, Tieria has the hardware to blow him away in a fit of self justified hermaphrodite anger. That's begging for trouble...

like we've all been beating around, only Lockon seems to be a "team player" when he's out in the field with the others. Setsuna and Tieria sometimes have their own ideas of how things should be done, and every now and then Al will throw a hissy fit, grow a pair, and decide that he too will ignore all plans and improvise...

Tieria seems to be the best candidate to unite the four, showing the best strategic mind, unquestionable commitment to the cause, and the willingness to take charge... but he's so bad handling people and so loyal to Veda's plan that he doesn't step up to that role.

[fireheart]

Ryll: Ohh that's ok I don't really care about the rep system one way or the other so never checked any of it until you mentioned it. I'll keep posting the way I want and feel like because the moment I start caring about something like that is the moment foruming loses any value, in my opinion anyway. And if it helps I usually use a little more paragraphing but stressed on time so had to hurry it up but fine I'll go back and fix it up a little. You should have seen my earlier posts when I started foruming for the first time which have about 4-5 times more text than the last post, funny enough also about Gundam.
Also I believe everyone should be allowed to use whatever style they want, if the others don't like it and don't read it well tough luck for them, their problem. I have a hard time understanding some people with weird spelling etc, but I accept that cope with it and try to understand what they wrote even if I have to reread it 5 times before I get it. Of course it help if we try but meh just my opinion. Then again hardly the place for debating that, my bad.

I disagree only on one point that the Gundams are only a strike force. They did wage war for a couple of hours before which should mean they can stick around and battle it out as long as theirs a solid plan, true there wasn't as much forces etc but they did wage war none the less. May have forgotten things from that ep like what they did only remembered they pulled a surprise attack on the base at the end. But didn't they at least fight normally at the beginning? But yeah obviously they weren't meant to fight for too long they're not exactly Freedom that can take down a whole army by itself. But that's not to say they can't hold their ground, which is why they needed to act fast if they had stayed to really fight then they would have been screwed.

And yes their weaknesses were used but it wasn't really about that from the start. It was simply about the fact that they had no game plan from when the first one failed which makes me think Sumeragi was stupid for not including another one and if they acted quickly enough then they would have had a harder time to actually exploit those weaknesses.

I'm pretty sure that if Sumeragi told the pilots to actually do what I just said they would, Allelujah and Lockon doesn't seem to have any problems with cooperating with the others and Tieria would do it simply because it's the mission plan Setsuna well is a bit more of a wild card. It may not be 100% coordination but it would have been a start.

The whole idea of using teamwork is simply to just step up from the whole loner thing already and actually do something more showing that they're at least capable of it. Point is if they actually stuck together and fought I believe they would have had better chance of survival without being bombarded for that long.

[Ryllharu]

Ryll: Ohh that's ok I don't really care about the rep system one way or the other so never checked any of it until you mentioned it. I'll keep posting the way I want and feel like because the moment I start caring about something like that is the moment foruming loses any value, in my opinion anyway....Also I believe everyone should be allowed to use whatever style they want, if the others don't like it and don't read it well tough luck for them, their problem.

My point is not whether or not you are not free to write in whatever style you choose. It is that when you don't make it easy to read, people tend to ignore you. So you can go on and on for pages of text, but no one will bother to read it. Once I got past your formatting (or lack thereof), you make plenty of good points, but they are a bit too hard to dig out of there. If you don't want to bother with paragraphs, at least use the bold, italic, or underline formatting to stress the key points. It draws the eye where you want it to go.

Ultimately, you and I will disagree on how the Gundams seem to be utilized militarily. However, there is something we can agree on.

Sumeragi, the supposed excellent strategist, is highly brought into question after this. Whether Billy tricked her or not, they still knew all the militaries were moving to the area. She should have seen this coming, or at least thought of a better escape plan(s).

[Naruto_RNG]

@fireheart
I'm tired of arguing with u man. Ryllharu said it best so I'm gonna leave it at that.


anyway how bad do u guys think the 3 powers going to loose this time? with the red gundam on the scene I wonder how long will it take for them to back off.
I was reading on other forums that eps16 is going to be half recap and half new stuff but from the preview it looked like that isn't true. does any1 have any news regardng this revelation?

[rockmanj]

Hmm...I'm not sure. I don't think those new Gundams will just own everyone. I think they may just cause a big enough distraction in order to make a hasty retreat. Well, that's the best strategy anyway..but those red beams are still disturbing.

[Kraco]

What I logically think will happen is that the three powers will withdraw either right away or after one recapture attempt (which would fail). We saw in this ep that the three powers actually had carefully planned strategy for isolating and capturing Gundams. That strategy hardly included three totally new Gundams suddenly appearing out of nowhere. And we have seen well enough who wins when Gundams and regular mobile suits fight in a chaotic battle.

If the red Gundams will stick around to slaughter as many mobile suits as they can, then it will be pretty clear they will be the real evil of this series, and some totally different goal exists for the CB that the old Gundam pilots know nothing about. However, if they just withdraw now, after saving the old meisters, then we will just have to wait and see what this is all about.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, even if Sumeragi screws up this time, Veda's supposed to check her mission plans and course of actions isn't it? If all it does is give a nod for the next mission without worrying about how it'll be executed or what exactly can happen, it fails as a super AI IMO. That reminds me, Veda approved of this mission....

Assuming the guys in red Gundams are from CB, I'm wondering if they base their actions on an AI. If so, is it a Veda programmed with a different goal, or is this thing really running the whole show?

edit:

Sumeragi has his second personality

In case you're still confused, Sumeragi is the big bossomed strategist who you saw come out of the shower.

[masamuneehs]

I'd expect that the "Surveyors" (the mysterious group mentioned by Corner) have a Veda, or something like it, but that they either disregard what it tells them to do something that will conflict with their objectives, or it's been reprogrammed to have their goals in mind.

One thing that's different about this Gundam series is that it doesn't take place in the midst of a huge, open conflict. In most Gundams, the main characters are limited in their range of operations. Targeted enemy is based in this region. Country X has the Earth on lock down, etc. (they also almost never arbitrarily skipped entire months at a time between episodes). So far, we've seen the Gundams have missions in space, then on Earth, then in space again, etc.

But, one thing that caught my eye from the OP is that when the three new Gundams are shown, they are rising up FROM the Earth. This is followed by the portion where the Gundams and new units are fighting each other up in space. Usually, the later in an OP something is revealed, the later on in that season it will show up.

That and the unlikeliness of the new Gundams (i'll wait a little while longer to call them 'the Surveyors' Gundams') instantly fighting CB's Gundams make me think we won't see their intentions until around the end of episode 20 or so. But, at this early stage, even I think I can make up a plan that they'd be following:

1. Use CB to introduce the Gundams to the world as 'good guys'.
2. Whittle down the three powers using CB
3. Step in whenever CB screws up, support them.
4. Once the three powers are weakened, seize control of the solar energy systems and elevators.
5. Enjoy ruling the world while everyone regrets laying down their weapons and wasting their best pilots fighting against CB.
6. Hope CB goes along with it all, or that your own Gundams will be able to defeat them if they oppose you.

Clearly, step 4 is taken up under the premise of "Resources and energy have always been a source of conflict. We believe the three powers will continue to fight so long as they control the orbital elevators and solar energy systems. Accordingly, we the Surveyors will now take control of the energy system and distribute it as we see fit. Remember, we're not like those stupid old nations that fight."

Step 6 always seems to be the one that comes back to bite them in the ass...

So far it seems that the three nations are hopelessly concerned with protecting their orbital elevators from each other (and now with getting an advantage over each other by capturing a Gundam). They really don't seem to have much interest in space, and are woefully inept up there. (HRL station in episode 1 would have been destroyed by that pathetic terrorist attack, CB is freaking sitting out in a Union asteroid resource field, lax security again at HRL's Lagrange colony)

So, yeah, that's my take on it. Seems pretty simple on the Surveyors' part... just sit back and let your idealist puppets destroy any potential military power that could stop you from running the world from wherever you are up in space.

[Kraco]

That sounds like a viable theory. Although you would need to include the three powers still somewhere in there. They spent far too much time introducing characters to just forget them and have Gundams fight each other.

[fireheart]

Ryll: Never asked so better do it now, do you mind that I call you ryll? You do have a valid point but I usually expect people to ignore what I say since when I get into things I pump out a lot more text trying to cover as many points I can and trying to be as clear as possible (Which I ultimately seem to fail most of the time). So most will go too much text to read, nothing new about it. But I shall try

I can agree they're not made for war or longer battles which means you're probably right that they're strike forces, I just think they can hold their own for some time. If they can't do that much it'll be hard for them to continue on for the rest of the series. They already started exploiting their weaknesses, granted 3 new Gundams joined the fray but seeing how early it is in the show it still doesn't bode well for CB.

The way I see it they either shape up and become a force that can be used even in war situations/outside of strike missions or they'll just use the old upgrade thing and start leveling the Gundams to be able to handle it. I'm still hoping they won't be uprgrading the Gundams to any kind of über forms or any at all, if they'd stay in the first level all the way through I'd be impressed.

Naruto_RNG: Hahahah do as you wish though you usually use someone else's word so far anyway. Besides ryllharu seemed to agree that Sumeragi should have had made more plans at least so seems weird that you suddenly agree with him when that's the one thing we argued about.


Anyway something I been thinking about. They can notice the Gundams coming usually by tracking some kind of energy that they release right? Thinking back a couple of episodes and didn't they do something like that? Anyway my thoughts are simply should they notice that they new Gundams are coming? Even if they can't notice them by the means I mentioned they're bound to fly over some forces in order to get to the other Gundams. Unless they suddenly don't notice them or don't report it they should be able to at least try using the same tactic against the new ones.

[Ryllharu]

I don't mind what you call me, everyone with nicks longer than two syllables ends up abbreviated (masa, terra, Yuki, etc.)

The Gundams have been tracked before under the principle that they can't be tracked beyond visual inspection. Gaps or interference with tracking, radar, and communications indicate the presence of the GN particles emitted by the Gundams.

I don't know what will happen in the next episode. A lot of this appears to be Sumeragi's fault, but we don't know what kind of information was passed around where. She certainly doesn't seem as devastated as she did when she fell into Sergei's plan to destroy the ship up in space.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Kraco]

The way I see it they either shape up and become a force that can be used even in war situations/outside of strike missions or they'll just use the old upgrade thing and start leveling the Gundams to be able to handle it. I'm still hoping they won't be uprgrading the Gundams to any kind of über forms or any at all, if they'd stay in the first level all the way through I'd be impressed.

There just a few Gundams around. No matter what they do, they will always have a disadvantage in numbers, and that means a limited operation time, due to the fact that even if the machine holds, the pilot won't. And we still haven't actually seen the three super powers trying to destroy Gundams. I deem they will continue to perform primarily precision strike missions. They have a vast advantage in those against any opponent (except the red Gundams if it turns out they will become enemies of the old Gundams).

[fireheart]

ryll: Well I've already sen the next episode so I'll refrain from commenting, but thanks for the info about the tracking thing.

kraco: Because they'll always have that disadvantage it's about time they take it more into consideration and try and over come it. The way they've operated so far mostly involves them going in by themselves taking care of the problem with their missions. Which is why I'd like to see some teamwork instead, besides from most of the Gundam shows I've seen most of them are on their own against the troops. Either way guess it's just my wish to see some more teamwork

[Buffalobiian]

Because they'll always have that disadvantage it's about time they take it more into consideration and try and over come it. The way they've operated so far mostly involves them going in by themselves taking care of the problem with their missions. Which is why I'd like to see some teamwork instead, besides from most of the Gundam shows I've seen most of them are on their own against the troops. Either way guess it's just my wish to see some more teamwork

Considering how each Gundam can usually hold their own, I guess it's more efficient to deploy them separately, especially considering the scale of most of their missions. Instead of sending them in as an entire team of four, they instead specialised their missions and course of action. For large scale missions, such as this one, or the one against the PM Trust, they did use all four gundams, and in stage 6, all four came out of the ravine and destroyed all the suits at their headquaters. They started off using teamwork here too, but just got separated.