Gundam 00 Episode 14

[fireheart]

When was it ever said they had to return to space to recharge the Gundams???

The whole thing about gundams needing to return to the ship for recharging was mentioned in one of Nyoro~n subbed episodes. Wasn't there a link somewhere around here that had a link to someone that compared Nyoro~n and Mendoi & Conclave subs to each other. The Mendoi once said that the only flaw would be that the gundams have to return in order to charge Ptolemaios while Nyoro~n said well the opposite. I might be mistaken but think that's where it comes from anyway.

Do like the new op, one thing in particular that I liked is the lack of hints concerning any end gundams for CB if there even is any end gundams in it unless you count those new 3 menacing gundams. It'd be something to watch them go on with the same gundams from start to end but somehow guessing it won't be happening. Question is if the solar furnace technology going to leak or if they're going to manage capturing one and finding out the secret or simply just manage to figure it out on their own.

Didn't have any problems with the end and the whole haircutting/food preparing/modeling they did say they were going to aim for a broader audience after all. Plus in a way I liked the contrast of something seemingly normal and then switching to them being in war torn places, sure they pose but hey what else are they going to do? The cha-cha?

Am I the only guy who doesn't care for how much or little skin Sumeragi shows? More interested in their counter attack considering she's been informed of their plans to wear the gundams out so wonder what their plan will be. Also considering she knows their goal wouldn't it be better to not participate at all in their little "training session"? It's not a war yet nor does it really incite to any war unless they show up.

[masamuneehs]

The whole thing about gundams needing to return to the ship for recharging was mentioned in one of Nyoro~n subbed episodes. Wasn't there a link somewhere around here that had a link to someone that compared Nyoro~n and Mendoi & Conclave subs to each other. The Mendoi once said that the only flaw would be that the gundams have to return in order to charge Ptolemaios while Nyoro~n said well the opposite. I might be mistaken but think that's where it comes from anyway.

I trust Menclave. and i'm almost positive that their version said it was the flagship, the Ptolemaios, that needed the Gundams to come back to it so it could keep its energy up. And, it really makes sense, from a design view point. The Ptolemais is essentially worthless in combat (at least on offense), and is only used because Sumeragi and the planning staff aren't the pilots (and to house Veda, I suppose...)

On the other hand, everything CB does depends almost entirely on the Gundams. It'd be a nightmare (and an easy ambush) if they had to go recharge somewhere all the time. All combat units must be autonomous to be worth their grain on their own.

And, I also really hope that the new gundams in the OP turn out to be enemy units. It'd be a fantastic twist to have the good guys stop getting new units, while everyone else gradually catches up in technology and starts to really challenge them. Honestly, though, I'm banking on them making some 'second generation' Gundams for CB, at least a significant upgrade to each unit that will let them sell more model kits...

[Yukimura]

Lol...please don't use Nyoro~n translations as evidence for anything other than the poor quality of Nyoro~n translators. Their record is so poor that anything they say really should be corroborated by a second source. The idea that the Gundams charge Ptolemaios is supported by every peice of evidence I can google except for people who are talking about the Nyoro~n release.

But don't take my word for it, take this guy's, he actually speaks Japanese AND he has a blog, how could he be wrong?

After wtching the OP 10-15 times I have some info to share. The new mobile suits (2:19-2:22) in the the OP all appear to produce red shimmering particles leading me to believe they are equipped with some form of GN Drive. From the colors of the suits that we can see, dark reds and black, as well as the color of the particles themselves, red, it seems extremely likely that these suits will be enemy suits. Also the one that was on the left that gets zoomed in on has a shoulder profile reminiscent of a Tierens (HRL Girls Pink suit) and the left arm (our left) of the one in the middle looks vaguely similar to the shape of the gun Graham has on his Flag. This leads me to believe that each superpower may end up producing it's own Gundam.

Further evidence for their hostility comes from the fight sequence (2:24-2:36). The sequence starts with Virtue firing at where the three new ones were, then the new suits scatter up left and right. Dynames is seen firing at the one that went right, then it cuts to a new location and we see drones coming in from the left and they are trying to surround and attack Kyrios. Those little things attack Kyrios with red lasers and then Kyrios and Exia each destroy one leading me to believe they were not under Kyrios's control at all.

One thing that bothers me though, the new suits seem to have tech that is comparable, if not superior to, CB's (funnels/bits/DRAGOONs, giant lasers, high speed, etc).
What I can't understand is how they would anyone be able to be produced such things without some sort of time skip. Even if the countries managed to capture a Solar Furnace the tech for the Gundams is supposed to be 20+ years ahead of every one else's, you can't just close a gap like that in only months.

[Death13a]

In 200 years of Gundam development i doubt someone wouldn't have ulterior motives for technology.

[masamuneehs]

i agree with yukimura entirely on his dissertation. it's bogus that they've been able to dupe CB's technology to such a high level, at least in such a short amount of time.

this show has taken place across a supposedly pretty decent time line, but that kind of advancements, to be having the tech they do in the OP, is throwing every scrap of realism out of the supposed 'Anno Domini' Gundam universe...

one thing, though, is that from how Tieria goes on and on about how they revealed the Dyanames Super Scope and the Nadleeh GN-04, that I'm guessing the Gundams still have a few things up their sleeves (like funnels/aerods/bits/lancers/possessedsand) that the power blocks won't be able to deal with.

[Kraco]

One thing that bothers me though, the new suits seem to have tech that is comparable, if not superior to, CB's (funnels/bits/DRAGOONs, giant lasers, high speed, etc).
What I can't understand is how they would anyone be able to be produced such things without some sort of time skip. Even if the countries managed to capture a Solar Furnace the tech for the Gundams is supposed to be 20+ years ahead of every one else's, you can't just close a gap like that in only months.

Hah. The fact some tiny private organization like CB would ever have significantly better technology than practically speaking the rest of the world combined is, to begin with, the single greatest breach of realism in this entire show. And honestly if they acquire the solar furnace technology from fallen Gundams, I'd expect them to take a few months at max to equip new frames with it.

Honestly, just today I read how a modern tractor factory spits out 60 specifically customized tractors out in a single day. So, lets jump a couple of hundreds of years into the future and we will have production capabilities that will produce any high tech mobile suit in mere hours from blueprints on a computer screen. Anybody who thinks it will take amazing amounts of time to adapt new technology is hopelessly jammed in the past.

Scientific breakthroughs take time. Not adapting them. That's why the major powers are so desperately trying to capture a Gundam; they have no idea of the science of how it works.

[animus]

Lol...please don't use Nyoro~n translations as evidence for anything other than the poor quality of Nyoro~n translators. Their record is so poor that anything they say really should be corroborated by a second source. The idea that the Gundams charge Ptolemaios is supported by every peice of evidence I can google except for people who are talking about the Nyoro~n release.

But don't take my word for it, take this guy's, he actually speaks Japanese AND he has a blog, how could he be wrong?

After wtching the OP 10-15 times I have some info to share. The new mobile suits (2:19-2:22) in the the OP all appear to produce red shimmering particles leading me to believe they are equipped with some form of GN Drive. From the colors of the suits that we can see, dark reds and black, as well as the color of the particles themselves, red, it seems extremely likely that these suits will be enemy suits. Also the one that was on the left that gets zoomed in on has a shoulder profile reminiscent of a Tierens (HRL Girls Pink suit) and the left arm (our left) of the one in the middle looks vaguely similar to the shape of the gun Graham has on his Flag. This leads me to believe that each superpower may end up producing it's own Gundam.

Further evidence for their hostility comes from the fight sequence (2:24-2:36). The sequence starts with Virtue firing at where the three new ones were, then the new suits scatter up left and right. Dynames is seen firing at the one that went right, then it cuts to a new location and we see drones coming in from the left and they are trying to surround and attack Kyrios. Those little things attack Kyrios with red lasers and then Kyrios and Exia each destroy one leading me to believe they were not under Kyrios's control at all.

One thing that bothers me though, the new suits seem to have tech that is comparable, if not superior to, CB's (funnels/bits/DRAGOONs, giant lasers, high speed, etc).
What I can't understand is how they would anyone be able to be produced such things without some sort of time skip. Even if the countries managed to capture a Solar Furnace the tech for the Gundams is supposed to be 20+ years ahead of every one else's, you can't just close a gap like that in only months.

I just read through all those comments, and thank god I only watched their first "translated" ep. That was some good dorama.

[fireheart]

Lol...please don't use Nyoro~n translations as evidence for anything other than the poor quality of Nyoro~n translators. Their record is so poor that anything they say really should be corroborated by a second source. The idea that the Gundams charge Ptolemaios is supported by every peice of evidence I can google except for people who are talking about the Nyoro~n release.

But don't take my word for it, take this guy's, he actually speaks Japanese AND he has a blog, how could he be wrong?

Not using it as evidence haven't even seen any of their releases so wouldn't know, just saw that link you posted in one of the other threads and from the best of my knowledge that's the only place where it's been mentioned that the Gundams need to be charged from the Ptolemaios. Which is a pretty obvious answer to your own question about where it's ever been mentioned.


masamuneehs: Frankly though does it really matter how realistic the show is? If we wanted realism we wouldn't be watching Gundam in the first place and it isn't the first lack of realism in the show.

[KrayZ33]

Hah. The fact some tiny private organization like CB would ever have significantly better technology than practically speaking the rest of the world combined is, to begin with, the single greatest breach of realism in this entire show. And honestly if they acquire the solar furnace technology from fallen Gundams, I'd expect them to take a few months at max to equip new frames with it.

do we really know that CB is "small"? and even if it was a small organization, as long as it gets support (which i think CB does because who are all these [rich] guys who only observe the gundams) it is possible to get far ahead.. wasn't it even mentioned that CB is probably a 200 years old organisation and that CB could be involed in the disappearing of many good scientist?

and i don't think it would be that easy to copy that technology.... World War 2 showed us that advanced technology was really difficult to copy and ended up in building hundreds of useless tanks or weapons which never worked properly. (take the MP44 or MG42 for example :P these weapons areeven used in modern warfare -> AK47 and MG3 so basicaly you can say that these weapons were far ahead of others..)

they might get some new frames, but they simply won't be as good as the originals because it takes a lot of time to understand technology which is far ahead... and then you have to optimise it which is even more difficult.

[Kraco]

Oh. I didn't say they would be better right away. But like I said, they should be able to produce 20 of them during the first days after cracking the new tech. That's something CB shouldn't be able of even in this series - well, they wouldn't be able to even find enough weirdos for pilots. The three super powers wouldn't have such problems. They should have practically infinite production capabilities and an endless supply of decent pilots.

CB might be 200 years old but honestly if it was a big organization a lot of people would know of it, and when a lot of people know about something it's going to leak sooner or later, and 200 years is many times enough for either soon or late. Especially if the organization has made lots of prominent people disappear. We have seen the intelligence services of the major powers suck to high heavens but even without any agencies they would know if it was big (actually they might be totally without intelligence services based on what we have seen).

[DDBen]

Oh. I didn't say they would be better right away. But like I said, they should be able to produce 20 of them during the first days after cracking the new tech. That's something CB shouldn't be able of even in this series - well, they wouldn't be able to even find enough weirdos for pilots. The three super powers wouldn't have such problems. They should have practically infinite production capabilities and an endless supply of decent pilots.

Actually I'm pretty sure they said in the show itself that it takes decades to fully develope a new line of mobile suits. So no the random earth based groups should have no ability to mass produce the gundam tech.

Hmm as for the above mention of how terrible Nyoro subs apparently are I guess I'll have to switch my archives around if they really are that off but it seems fairly hard to believe to me. I've been downloading some conclave releases depending on if they were released first or not and I certainly haven't seen such drastic translation differences but again that could be based on the episode.

Now assuming that the Conclave releases are correct and its pretty likely they are I find it moronic the Ptolemy uses the Gundams as a power supply. I mean if they can build the Gundams they should obviously be able to make a solar furnace for there own ship being that it runs on the particles they make. Simply put thats one of the most illogical and moronic things I've ever heard. On top of that one would assume they could have just made a Gundam that stays with the ship at all times to both keep it charged and you know DEFEND it considering it has no weapon systems.

well guess I'll get to changing over that archive shame Conclave releases are so stupidly large.

[masamuneehs]

Now assuming that the Conclave releases are correct and its pretty likely they are I find it moronic the Ptolemy uses the Gundams as a power supply. I mean if they can build the Gundams they should obviously be able to make a solar furnace for there own ship being that it runs on the particles they make. Simply put thats one of the most illogical and moronic things I've ever heard. On top of that one would assume they could have just made a Gundam that stays with the ship at all times to both keep it charged and you know DEFEND it considering it has no weapon systems.

Right, that's the problem. The Gundams need to put in work down on the ground, or wherever else they're needed. You might as well make another Gundam than build a solar furnace for a freaking ship that doesn't do anything (unless you just want it to be captured).

Like i said before, there really is no need for a flagship except to house Veda and Sumeragi. They can supply the Gundams without it, as we've seen, and communicate mission orders to them.

A Gundam purely to defend the ship is also an absurd waste of resources and further proves that having a flagship is just a bad idea in the first place.

[DDBen]

Right, that's the problem. The Gundams need to put in work down on the ground, or wherever else they're needed. You might as well make another Gundam than build a solar furnace for a freaking ship that doesn't do anything (unless you just want it to be captured).

Like i said before, there really is no need for a flagship except to house Veda and Sumeragi. They can supply the Gundams without it, as we've seen, and communicate mission orders to them.

A Gundam purely to defend the ship is also an absurd waste of resources and further proves that having a flagship is just a bad idea in the first place.

except in having the gundams come back to space to recharge the ship they are send in cargo containers why they are not maned making them extremely easy to capture. Thats a enourmous risk.

One would imagine if the ship had its own power supply they could at least give it some weapons to defend itself instead of a shield with a very finite amount of power.

Also a Gundam for defense would be more of a last resort the pilot doesn't have to be perfect for a unit that doesn't have to actively go seeking out combat. To find the ship period it cost absurd amounts of money because they had to use thousands of probes to do it and they still failed completely.

Also your correct there is no reason for the ship they have its certainly not a flagship its a transport. A flagship would be a active warship that thing only has shields and is clearly not needed in any way for the missions they have completed so far. It does provide a place to hide the gundams in space and repair/upgrade them at least. Still it seems moronic to have a Gundam repair bay that requires them transporting the Gundams in crates up one of three elevators controlled by the enemy.

[Kraco]

I fully agree. CB's hidden resources should be already spread pretty thin just building and maintaining the awesome mobile suits. By all logic they should be quite careful of how to use any extra production capabilities they might have. And like Masa said, I don't see any reason to invent them in useless endeavours.

Actually I'm pretty sure they said in the show itself that it takes decades to fully develope a new line of mobile suits. So no the random earth based groups should have no ability to mass produce the gundam tech.

Give me a break. It wouldn't take decades to develop a new fighter plane or attack helicopter today, if really needed. In fact, it didn't take even during WW2, and they didn't even have CAD back then, not to mention simulations. In the future of this series they should be able to use AI pretty far to get good designs ready in no time, and then CAM to get the work done fast. If they said somewhere in this series it takes decades then it was just propaganda to get prices higher, or peace time talks. But you can bet if they got their hands on the CB technology they wouldn't develop the new types on low budget. No, it would be quite a race with infinite budgets.

Edit: Fixed a logic error caused by an erroneous negative form.

[masamuneehs]

This is what Graham Acre thinks of your arguments:


But, seriously, I know sending the Gundams back up into space without an escort is retarded as hell. I never said it wasn't. Don't blame that on the fact that the Ptolemaios needs to be recharged. That's like blaming the horse for the crappy horeshoes you bought.

to add yet another uselessness... the Ptolemaios doesn't go pick them up or anything like that, so...

And, finally, I know it's not really a 'flagship' in the sense of a fleet's flagship. But, in that it houses Sumeragi and Veda, it's at least a mobile command center, which, when coupled with other ships, would probably be called the flagship. Weapons aren't really an issue here.

[KrayZ33]

Give me a break. It wouldn't take decades to develop a new fighter plane or attack helicopter today, if really needed. In fact, it didn't take even during WW2, and they didn't even have CAD back then, not to mention simulations. In the future of this series they should be able to use AI pretty far to get good designs ready in no time, and then CAM to get the work done fast. If they said somewhere in this series it takes decades then it was just propaganda to get prices higher, or peace time talks. But you can bet if they got their hands on the CB technology they wouldn't develop the new types on low budget. No, it would be quite a race with infinite budgets.

you know how long it took from the very first aircrafts to the aircrafts we use now?
i don't think he was talking about small improvements like "stealth bomber type 1a" to "stealthbomber type 2.b" or something like that

we've got gundams here.. there isn't a mobile suit which is nearly as strong as exia etc.

so when a Flag from the AEU is for example a propeller driven aircraft, then a gundam is a F-22 Raptor.

but yes if the world gets its hands on one of the gundam then (after 3 years of study) they would probably be able to even improve these and/or to reproduce gundams..

[DDBen]

Give me a break. It wouldn't take decades to develop a new fighter plane or attack helicopter today, if really needed. In fact, it didn't take even during WW2, and they didn't even have CAD back then, not to mention simulations. In the future of this series they should be able to use AI pretty far to get good designs ready in no time, and then CAM to get the work done fast. If they said somewhere in this series it takes decades then it was just propaganda to get prices higher, or peace time talks. But you can bet if they got their hands on the CB technology they wouldn't develop the new types on low budget. No, it would be quite a race with infinite budgets.

Actually it does take that long to get a new aircraft into production heck why do you think the space program uses such out of date tech as well as our tanks. The overall fact is when you start developement of something you use the best tech available at that time as you go along you don't keep upgrading the Tech as you go along you stay with the outdated base because you know it will work in what you initially designed. Absolutely nothing in the current military uses todays best processors it uses a much much older base as thats what was available when the project was initially started.

Now don't get me wrong if they had any understanding of what they were looking at they could certainly use some very basic concepts to improve existing equipment but they couldn't turn around and mass produce anything this tech is decades ahead of anything they currently have and as such developing a way to produce and use that would not be a instant thing by any stretch of the imagination. As KrayZ33 said this isn't the basic difference of a slight advancement by any means your talking about starting over from scratch and building a Gundam and that wouldn't just happen overnight.

Now the only possible way for this to happen is if CB purposefully leaks them some plans on how to build a gundam but I don't really see that happening any time soon or if like they did in Gundam wing they have a OLD suit that they had nobody capable of using which they dig up and aim to complete that was designed by someone who disappeared in the past but that certainly isn't going to give them something they can turn around and make out of the blue.

I fully expect for those outside CB to eventually get more capable suits of some form capable of at least letting the pilots force the Meisters to get new suits as thats the formula but your blatantly wrong about what your stating here in a realistic setting. Money can't buy everything.

[Yukimura]

Kraco I think you're just full of Gundam haterade because you're starting to sound pretty contradictory. You keep talking about how in the future X,Y, and Z will be the different and therefore the super powers will be able to do things which we would think should be impossible today. Then you say that Celestial Being shouldn't be able to do things because you, looking at it from a 2008 perspective, think they would be impossible/impractical. How can you sit there and pick and choose what will change in the future and what won't? On the one hand you're saying the world of the future won't fit our current preconceptions and what was said in the show (mobile suit development cycles), but on the other hand it will still fit your preconceptions (capabilities of private organizations). Since no one knows what the future will actually holds and both sides are speculation, do you not find anything wrong with the fact that you're essentially trying to predict what will change about the world and what won't and make claims based on your predictions being accurate?

Plus you are willing rationalize away comments stated in the show when they don't meet with your assumptions, but then use others comments in the show to support your assumptions...

[Kraco]

Ho...

I never said the three super powers would build Gundams. I only said they would study the CB tech and adapt it to be used in new frames. We have already seen ace pilots can fight, to a degree, against the Gundams with their "basic" prototype suits. So, throw in a solar furnace (whatever that is) into such a prototype suit (plus the indestructible materials) and you would already have who knows how big a performance boost. And in the process they would probably learn how the CB can communicate despite the interference. This together with a whole fleet of new mobile suits, and they might beat the real Gundams.

Plus you are willing rationalize away comments stated in the show when they don't meet with your assumptions, but then use others comments in the show to support your assumptions...

Sorry about that. A basic fault, I know. Too bad my mind is built so that I try to see logic even where none is present.

You keep talking about how in the future X,Y, and Z will be the different and therefore the super powers will be able to do things which we would think should be impossible today. Then you say that Celestial Being shouldn't be able to do things because you, looking at it from a 2008 perspective, think they would be impossible/impractical.

We are talking about a terrorist organization and countries here. As far as I know the highest achievement of Al-Qaeda is a shoe bomb. They aren't attacking the West with fighter planes of their own, nor submarines of their own. However, the USA has pumped Iraq full of high tech weaponry to hunt down its enemies. That's the logical difference between a super power and a terrorist organization. Why it's the opposite in 00, who knows, but I'm just having difficulties believing it can be so, and thus I try to find holes in it.

EDit: And if I really was filled with hate, I wouldn't be watching this. I'm merely annoyed by some aspects of it. But it's true Gundams aren't meant for me. I should stick to my FMP...

[Yukimura]

Gundam 00 - 14 (1280x720 H264) - [Conclave-Mendoi]
Gundam 00 - 14 (704x400 H264) - [Conclave-Mendoi]
Gundam 00 - 14 (704x400 XviD) - [Conclave-Mendoi]

We got the manga and have some official names so the last names of some characters might be different