Sorry, double post ....
Sorry, double post ....
Last edited by Vash72; Wed, 02-06-2008 at 12:56 AM.
"I got lost on the path known as life today." - Kakashi
"Happiness is a choice that requires effort at times." - Anon
The Kyuubi's chakra probably isn't "limitless" unless he has access to all 9 of his tails. As the more tails manifest, the more chakra seems to become available.Originally Posted by Abdula
Lol save your breath Vash, history has shown Abdula will always post exactly what he thinks which will include his reasoning for thinking everyone who disagrees with him is wrong, which he has done here.
Anyway
** Steps on Soap Box
@Abdula: Don't go thinking that just because people are ignoring what you say you are automatically 'right'. Your argument about the blue chakra sphere's doesn't seem to stand on much other than that you don't think it was like that in the manga. However this is not the manga forum and the manga is not supposed to have any bearing on the discussions here (though since all the mods have left it really effectively doesn't matter). Still in Naruto the anime, Kyubii Naruto shat out balls of what looked like Normal (blue) and Kyubii (Red) chakra, your points seem to patently deny this Blue chakra could have been Naruto's chakra because normal and kyubii chakra have supposedly never mixed before AND it's not what appeared to have happened in the manga.
Well to the first point there's a first time for everything and the argument that something unprecedented didn't happen because it's unprecedented is just silly (even if the unprecedented thing makes no contextual sense this is shounen, it doesn't have to make sense). And to the second point, as I said, this is (supposedly) an anime discussion, if the people here are interested in the manga they should read it and talk about it there, otherwise they shouldn't have to read posts involving a comparison of the differences between the manga and anime in the anime discussion section. If anything you should be complaining in the manga thread about how the anime is altering the impressions of things from the way they appeared in the manga, but the anime is the anime and what happens in it is all the Narutoverse that exists for many people and you have no right to stomp all over that with your manga prophecies.
**Steps off soap box**
The whole idea of the bubbles seems like a GFX gimmick regardless of what color they were. I mean Kyubiruto essentially tossed them out of his body, compressed them, put them back in his body, and then spat them out. I don't see what purpose the intermediate steps served other than looking cool. If he could eat that thing without completely exploding instantly why couldn't it have simply been compressed internally and then spat out...
Last edited by Yukimura; Tue, 01-15-2008 at 01:24 AM.
I think this will come in handy, I did read most of the things you all wrote here btw.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ayy1aXSoXc
to sum up :
1. 2 kinds of chakra can be used to create a technique even if naruto's is small part.
2. Kyuubi is huge
3. This is the very moment i wrote about before proving that Kyuubi dies with Naruto.
4. Jiraiya was explaining to Naruto somewhere in this or ep before that he has 2 kinds of chakra - blue and red (y, we discussed it already). My point is -> anime fantasy for colouring or was it in fact in the manga?
I win
one last : random chakra balls didn't spin at all inside, why would anyone think they were rasengans ??
You know what else was weird?
Supposedly all that chakra came out of naruto. But it wasn't until after he compressed it into this little ball of dark matter and reingested it that it became incredibly heavy.
So...regular chakra is weightless, and compressed chakra weighs alot? Even though it's originally the same amount of chakra?
Interesting.
Might be like air -> theoretically weightless, but when you pump a ball with air it does weigh more.
I consider it a way to just show that it was an incredible amount of chakra put into it.
The air density at sea level is about 1.2 kg/m3. It's not weightless. Especially not theoretically weightless. Moreover, I think chakra is some sort of energy so speaking about weight is probably irrelevant.
I really can't understand why you guys feel the need to always state that even though I myself have done it on many occasions. Yes it is an anime forum and actually no one knows, its all just theories, hypotheses, and speculation. There are things in Naruto on which these are based but even those aren't concrete since even the rules of the Naruto world can and are changed rather often.
That is just stupid. I honestly don't care whether I'm right or not its just my opinion but if people ignore my posts because of the lengthiness then that negates the time I take to type them. Although its only a few minutes but I try to read every post in every thread I read but thats just me.
That is both ignorant and untrue.
If someone is on the forum and holding differing opinions and not stating them then there really isn't much point to them being here. Its a forum if you have an opinion post it. I'm also well aware of my style of writing but that doesn't mean that my opinions are right nor should you think it means that I think they are superior to anyone else's.
I already know my opinion the reason I'm here is simply to state it, read others and then discuss the similarities and/or differences. If one of you guys has an opinion and doesn't feel like you are able or should post because of something I did then sorry but you should know better. Seriously if someone has something to say and they didn't because of me then they must not have had any strong opinions in the first place.
By the way I very much like your style, oh and Ignore Yuki's comments at the beginning of his post.
Uh I think I should clear this up. What I mean is that the Kyuubi itself supposedly has limitless chakra I don't mean to suggest that Naruto has access to that amount of chakra as yet. I already said that there is a limit to the amount of chakra he has access to.
@ Yuki: very disappointed that you think I could be that ignorant and I wasn't "discussing" the manga I just gave a few examples to show that the color of chakra isn't much to go on.
I also think that expelling the chakra from his body, just to compress and ingest it only to expel it again was a complete waste. Think it was done just for show, more specifically just to show that the Kyuubi has a large amount of chakra to waste something we all already know.
I think it would have been much more logical and effective if the Kyuubi had just compressed the chakra within itself in the first place and then suddenly fired it out. It should have been much easier for it to compress the chakra within Naruto's body and the Kyuubi suddenly firing a massive beam of chakra at Oro would have been far more impressive than having to take all the time it did to build it up.
I mean its the Kyuubi if it has to take so much time to build up the chakra to create a powerful attack then whats the point. The kyuubi is supposed to be a huge mass of chakra and transformed Naruto is supposed to have that chakra at his disposal if he has to take that much time to create and attack that still ends up being blocked its a complete waste.
@ SilentSnake: That video could also go to my point that using the Kyuubi's chakra forces Naruto's out first.
@ Darkender: Regular chakra is not weightless. If you look at the battle between Oro and The third for example the anbu ninjas who were watching the battle said that by just being so close to the two of them the weight of their chakras was pushing down on them and making it hard to move. Its sounds alot like Bleach to me anyway, the point is that regular chakra isn't weightless and compressed chakra especially the amount the Kyuubi is using must weigh exponentially more.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Never said it didn't, but no chakra = person dies.
By the way we were shown it was just that Naruto wanted Kyuubi to lend him chakra, wasn't really shown that it forces out Naruto's first, it was more like Jiraiya's way to force Naruto to use Kyuubi's chakra for the first time consciously.
Either way, you can make a jutsu with 2 chakra types IF you possess them, if we use the info we were shown that is.
Kraco = what I meant by theoretically weightless was that we don't literally feel it's 'weigh' on us, but there of course is pressure. It was only a comparison.
We don't really know what happened inside Noob-iruto, since chakra is a body's product we don't know much about (at least about specifics we talk about now) we can just assume that it has some kind of weigh to it.
1 ton of feathers being 1 ton of feathers, so if we compress it it's still 1 ton of feathers, right?
That's at least the way I perceive it by what was shown in the story.
Yeah one ton of feathers is one ton of feathers. So one ton of chakra should be one ton of chakra but if you compress the chakra it would take up less space so although it would weigh the same it would seem heavier and it would be alot harder to use.
Yeah you can make a jutsu with two types of chakra sure I'll accept that but there is no evidence that Naruto can use the two types of chakra simultaneously. One the seal is there and two Naruto is an idiot, he can barely manage to use one type properly so I highly doubt he could use two.
Anyway like I said before everything else suggests that its either or not both. Either he is using his chakra or he is using the Kyuubi's chakra. I would think if he was indeed using both one of the characters would comment on it since they regularly talk about such things.
Last edited by Abdula; Tue, 01-15-2008 at 02:07 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
He managed to pull it off with gamabunta summoning though. So Naruto gotta be close to death to be able to use a jutsu with both chakra types simultaneously
But honestly, since Naruto isn't in control I don't expect him to do such a complicated thing, but I do believe Kyuubi can. Why is he using some of Naruto's chakra then?
1. Naruto just allows it, since he's controled by Kyuubi and he started the transformation himself after all.
2. We can use the 500/1500 chakra "theory" (
We've known for sennen (goroshi) that seal is weakening and that's probably one of the reasons all of this is taking place, which is also why your argument with seal being there is being ignored by me.
EDIT: I think it's not that big of a deal with them not commenting on 2 types of chakra, they sometimes explain some stuff and sometimes don't.
There is nothing yet to convince me that the seal is breaking. Its still intact both on Naruto's body and in that dimension where he talks to the Kyuubi. There has also never been any evidence that any seal would just break over time. When Oro sealed Naruto for example he said the only way Naruto would be able to use the Kyuubi is if the seal is removed and it was. If any seal was going to break you would think one as simple as that would have been easily broken. Another thing is that seals are supposed to be permanent, like the sealing statue Akatsuki uses I don't consider that to be as powerful as the one the fourth used and that contains multiple beasts but nothing suggests that its breaking. So don't see the seal breaking without some outside interference.
I think whats happening here is this, the seal in Naruto is intact but the seal allows Naruto to gain access to the Kyuubi and Naruto is simply using more and more of the Kyuubi's power. Look at the seal Kakashi put on Sasuke's curse seal for example, that seal was working fine whether it was effective or not completely depended on if Sasuke wanted it to be.
Its just hard for me to believe that the fourth gave his life and used his most powerful attack to create a seal that would break in a fews years. I mean it did use a shinigami and if the seal on Naruto is breaking then the first four hokages will be released eventually then because they were sealed using the same technique and Sarutobi said it was for eternity. I mean why would the fourth give his life to seal the Kyuubi if it only meant that the Kyuubi would be released a few years later.
So because of the reasons I stated above I really don't think the seal is breaking. Naruto has access to the Kyuubi and he has control over the seal and just how much chakra is released. Why else would the Kyuubi be asking Naruto to remove the seal, if it was indeed breaking there would be no need for him to do that.
However if the seal was under Naruto's control then Naruto would be able to dictate just how much chakra is released and whether or not the Kyuubi is released just like Gaara was able to control if Shukaku is released or not. To transform to the state he is in, they showed us that Naruto actually traveled behind the seal to where the Kyuubi is.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
When Kakashi was fighting Zabuza, in the first arc, at one point he sensed the Kyuubi's chakra. His immediate response showed him worrying if the seal had broken. (it's episode 16 or 17, I don't recall which) So, in that situation, what was causing Kakashi to believe the seal could be breaking?
This seal is different than the one Kakashi used on Sasuke, which utilized Sasuke's will as the primary component for that seal's success. This seal has a special name... I forget what it is called... maybe 4 element seal or something? Anyways, Orochimaru names the seal on episode 29 when Naruto goes berserk and fights him. At that point, the seal is very weakened and the Kyuubi's chakra is pouring out into Naruto. Orochimaru then re-seals it to prevent this from happening. Later on, Jiraiya unseals the seal so that Naruto can once again use the Kyuubi's chakra. So, even though the seal is "unsealed", it's still not broken. Meaning these are two separate things.
I do agree with your logic on the fourth sacrificing his life to seal the demon. I think to some extent Naruto being in control of his emotions may be the key to controlling the Kyuubi.
I don't think it's breaking, but they did say it's weakening whatever that means.
I think it was Oro who said it first, that's why he put his seal on Naruto, but he (or me) just might confuse it with the innate ability of the seal to enable Naruto get Kyuubi's chakra at all.
AFAIK we are led to believe that the seal could break only if Naruto goes totally wacko and 9th tail appears.
About emotions -> they are a trigger to many things, we've seen that already in Naruto.
A friend of mine had this theory that sharingan is triggered by emotions.
IF IT AIN'T IN THE ANIME, DON'T FUCKING POST IT ABOUT IT
WARNED
Sasuke -> haku fight, faced death, and didn't want to die because of Itachi could be yet another motivation -> sharingan appears
Sasuke fights Naruto -> When Sasuke acknowledges Naruto being strong( not as strong as he was ofc) and they have all the emo talk -> 3rd dot in sharingan appears
Itachi's way to get MS -> kill your best friend
I don't know how much truth there is to it, but we can say for sure that emotions are indeed important
Last edited by masamuneehs; Tue, 01-15-2008 at 04:30 PM.
Good job quoting a spoiler. You've been warned also
I thought this was already widely accepted as truth. In fact everything short of them explicitly stating that suggests its true.Sasuke -> haku fight, faced death, and didn't want to die because of Itachi could be yet another motivation -> sharingan appears
Sasuke fights Naruto -> When Sasuke acknowledges Naruto being strong( not as strong as he was ofc) and they have all the emo talk -> 3rd dot in sharingan appears
Itachi's way to get MS -> kill your best friend
I don't know how much truth there is to it, but we can say for sure that emotions are indeed important
Last edited by masamuneehs; Tue, 01-15-2008 at 04:31 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
I agree with the conclusion that the seal is simply set up to allow chakra flow from Kyubii to Naruto (since it was explicitly stated when Jiraiya analyzed it way back when) but the reasons given as to why the seal is not (or could not) be breaking don't hold up well.
First inferring the properties of seals in general from Oro's five part seal seems hinky. When Jiraiya saw the seal Oro put on Naruto I believe he commented that only he or Tsunade or Sarutobi would have been able to remove it (or maybe Oro said that when he saw it had been removed) either way, Oro's seal was certainly potent by the standards of the common ninja it just wasn't that great by the standards of the Sannin and thus the standards of human possibility. Which leads in to my next point...
As godly as he may have been the Fourth was still just a man while the Kyubii is a Force of Nature. Human kind in all it's collective wisdom and power could still be wiped off the face of the Earth by forces of nature we'd have absolutely no way to control. Now, I don't doubt it's possible that the Fourth created a seal so strong that it could permanently trap a Force of Nature, this is Naruto after all, however it wouldn't surprise me in the least if even his best effort could only slow the Kyubii down but not permanently seal it away. The Kyubii should have the brute strength to smash through any simple physical barrier, so it would come down to if the Fourth was clever enough to create his seal in such a way that pushing against it with more and more power does not slowly erode it away and cause it to weaken and ultimately break.
Finally, even if the Fourth was sure his seal would wear off in time his only choices would have been seal it temporarily in a manner that would tie its fate to a human in the village for a while or let it keep rampaging and destroy everything in its path (namely the village). I would think a decent Hokage would lay down his life even if just to give his people a few more years of safety and time to figure out a better solution It's better to have 15+ years to come up with a plan than to be destroyed immediately.
As to the way the seal works I believe in the absorption theory, where the Kyubii's force in pushing against the seal is converted into energy that gets absorbed into Naruto's natural chakra pool. This process would happen relatively slowly but it would make Naruto stronger and stronger over time, at least in terms of chakra capacity. I think that if this mechanism is in place then it has a loophole (or flaw depending on how you look at it), where Naruto's will can bypass the conversion process and he can take chakra directly from the Kyubii without conversion. I think the Kyubii knows Naruto can't handle the amount of chakra it can force through a direct interface and since its chakra can carry its will, once Naruto draws out more chakra then he knows what to do with he ends up being controlled by the Kyubii chakra and poof Kyubiruto.
EDIT: Three posts above made while I was writing
Shame on SilentSnake!
Last edited by Yukimura; Tue, 01-15-2008 at 04:25 PM.
Damn you type slow then and yeah sorry I didn't clearly state my points. They could have been stated much clearer and there are other reasons why I stated those. Anway your absorption theory I think was already mentioned or atleast hinted at by Jiraiya and others.
In any case even if that isn't true pushing against the seal could simply cause the Kyuubi chakra to be released to the outside world or simply used by Naruto like he uses it up now but I think you're theory is correct.
Anyway I'm way to tired to make another long post, only been getting 3 hours of sleep for the last few months and I have yet to eat breakfast. Can't even think straight, time to go start some trouble anyway should be back by Friday hopefully.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
At this point I think we determined that its actually the Kyuubi in control at this point. But with only 4 tails, I don't think the Kyuubi has access to all of his own chakra. That what I was saying anyway. So maybe he's using Naruto's because he has this attack, but doesn't have enough chakra to use it with only 4 tails.
Oops, my bad, sorry for that, shippuden's fault!
Anyway, all the seal thing makes me think that it can be weakened only to some point and when it reaches it, it won't weaken anymore.
As I said before, I honestly doubt that it can just break by itself after some time, there's a pressure put on the seal by constant Kyuubi chakra activation and training so it's only natural for it to bend.
I wonder what would happen if there was no kakashi/jiraiya/yamato/opponent to stop naruto in one way or another from kyuubi state.
Ofc, why would Naruto go Kyuubi without a reason? but what if he meets an opponent that he just defeats and there is no ally to prevent going more kyuubi? Would seal make him stay 4-tails eventually knocking him uncionscious or would he slowly deteriorate and grow more tails up to the 9th?
I'm guessing after killing everything around him he'd just wind down on his own.
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