Learning a new language

[bagandscalpel]

Mandarin Chinese is hard (Cantonese is worse).

This's piqued my curiosity, but how so? As far as Chinese goes, the written language is all the same; shouldn't the spoken dialects simply be different pronunciations for each character?

[Psyke]

This's piqued my curiosity, but how so? As far as Chinese goes, the written language is all the same; shouldn't the spoken dialects simply be different pronunciations for each character?

The written language is largely the same, but there are differences enough to confuse people who don't understand the different dialets. Just in Singapore alone, there are already 4 different types of dialets, which are generally used by the elders and senior citizens. The younger generation mostly only understand Mandarin, and perhaps 1 more dialet used within family members, such as Teo Chew, Hokkien, or Cantonese.

As for Mizuchi, the text books I'm using now are completely void of English, and I haven't seen the Japanese for Dummies book. I'm sure it's a good starting point to understand the basics as well as the character sets.

[Ryllharu]

with latin and greek we did vocab first, translating little stories and such.

We almost entirely switched to grammar after one set of first and second declension nouns and the first and second conjugations. We only learned vocab as we went through the declensions after that. By the time we got to poetry, it was a piece of cake.

Subsequently, I have forgotten nearly all of it in the four years since. Non-use will do that.

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Which brings up the next important point. Immersion. Since we're already here, most of us watch anime. Granted, much of it is very simplified, or twisted into "cutesy" ways of speaking, but it helps far more than you think. That's how you can maintain (or retain) what you've learned.

Immersion is absolutely key to learning any language with any amount of actual fluency.

[Idealistic]

Every language is hard to learn if you weren't taught it as an infant.

[XanBcoo]

Every language is hard to learn if you weren't taught it as an infant.

I dunno, Esperanto is reasonably easy to learn if you know any romance language.

Also re: Cantonese and Mandarin, I would have thought learning one would be really easy if you already are proficient in writing the other. Maybe a bit confusing at first, but it seems like it'd just be a matter of assigning similar words to the same concepts. But then again I really have no idea how mutually intelligible the two are.

[Animeniax]

I've seen enough Star Trek to know that English is the only language you need to know. If space creatures from 2 parsecs away speak English, what do you need these other languages for?

[masamuneehs]

Good sites for teaching yourself Japanese:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ - Good basic overview
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/japanese/ - Another good basic overview with some audio files

http://www.realkana.com/ - Flash site to learn the Kana alphabets
http://www.realkanji.com/kanji/ - Same makers, for Kanji

[Psyke]

Also re: Cantonese and Mandarin, I would have thought learning one would be really easy if you already are proficient in writing the other. Maybe a bit confusing at first, but it seems like it'd just be a matter of assigning similar words to the same concepts. But then again I really have no idea how mutually intelligible the two are.

It's not really that easy. My mum's cantonese while my dad's hokkien. However, I can't speak both dialects and can only speak mandarin, which is the official chinese dialect for use in schools, media, etc. I can understand both dialects, but can't speak both of them. I was struggling to speak in cantonese when I was in Hong Kong for a trip a few years back. No problems in Taiwan because we share very similar spoken mandarin (but different writing), but I'd expect some problems in China due to slangs and certain native phrases.

[Mizuchi]

Good sites for teaching yourself Japanese:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ - Good basic overview
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/japanese/ - Another good basic overview with some audio files

http://www.realkana.com/ - Flash site to learn the Kana alphabets
http://www.realkanji.com/kanji/ - Same makers, for Kanji

Domo masu-chan

[Psyke]

Domo masu-chan

Masu......chan?

[Koyuki]

Masu-san.

Anyways. It's easier to learn if you're more people, get some of your friends with you. Also watching anime without subs are a nice way to learn somthing, you'll catch some words here and there.

Don't give up, hang in there. Gambatte Mizu-kun!

[Animeniax]

I'd have said "masa-sensei" since he's instructing Mizuchi, but how much bigger a head can we give masa than he already has?

@Mizuchi, the entire -chan -kun -san honorific titling scheme is very important to the Japanese. The point at which people start calling each other -kun or by their first name is serious business. Do it too early and you risk offending them and completely ruining the relationship. If you're serious about learning their ways and culture, that's one of the first lessons you need to understand.

[Koyuki]

@Animeniax: Masa just gave him some links, but ok. I remember the -kun, -chan, -san. It was the first chapter in my "Learn Japanese" book. It's really important.

@Mizuchi: You should read about Japanese culture on Wiki. It's good to learn about the culture to understand them.

[Animeniax]

Well it's more than just the links. masa lords overs us from on high with his infinite wisdom. We really should refer to him appropriately as masa-sensei or masa-sama, lest he take offense and smite us.

Are you planning on college, Mizuchi? If so, you should take Japanese classes. They'll fulfill any foreign language requirements for your degree, plus it's Japanese, so its win-win. It would be good to get a head start before taking Japanese classes in school. The only concern is learning things wrong. Like I'm learning to write kana on my own now, and a lot of my characters would never pass a teacher's grading, though they are legible and you can figure out what they are. And then there's that time at a restaurant when I told a waiter "chotto matte yo", when I completely did not mean to be rude or forceful in that situation. I still wonder if that was spit or just grease on my steak .

[Mizuchi]

@Animeniax: Masa just gave him some links, but ok. I remember the -kun, -chan, -san. It was the first chapter in my "Learn Japanese" book. It's really important.

@Mizuchi: You should read about Japanese culture on Wiki. It's good to learn about the culture to understand them.

lol nah i know the suffixes and what they mean. Thats why I put the little face next to it, referring to it being a joke, as the suffix should've been -san or -sama (since hes admin). I probably shouldn't joke like that though, as it may become a bad habit and I may accidently do it when in japan and unintentionally offend someone .

@animen: yeah i plan on taking japanese in college, but I would like to learn to speak it rather well before college, as I'm still a sophomore in highschool and would like to go at a faster pace, and I still have over 2 years before college.

[Animeniax]

Wow, you're in high school and you can afford Rosetta Stone software?

You're best bet at this point would be to make some Japanese friends (or gf, even better). You could also look into studying abroad in Japan and student exchange programs. And what better vacation than to do a 1 or 2 week homestay visit with a host family in Japan? Learning Japanese from watching anime is probably the worst option.

[Ryllharu]

Learning Japanese from watching anime is probably the worst option.

If you are after fluency, definitely. The simplified forms, the "cutesy" verbs, etc. If you're only learning it for watching anime, that's fine. Otherwise, watch a lot more dramas and news shows off channels like AZN.

[Animeniax]

J-dramas help you learn colloquialisms, some slang, and common usage. They also seem to speak slower in dramas than in normal conversation, so it's easier to follow and differentiate words. Talking to a Japanese person when they're talking full speed is difficult unless you're fluent.

By far, learning the 2 kana syllabaries and as many kanji characters as you can is what I've found to be the biggest hurdle to learning Japanese. Next would be the sentence structure, but I think once you figure the basic placement of subjects, objects, verbs, adjectives, participles, etc, it's not that difficult to string a sentence together. Especially since they often omit subjects and objects in normal conversation.

[Psyke]

I thought the easiest were the Hira and Kata, while the Kanji is relatively easy to me since they are based on Chinese characters. The hardest are the multiple forms for verbs and the honorifics. Each verb can have as many as 8 different forms, such as passive, causative, causative-passive, transitive, intransitive, etc....... This is by far the harddest to grasp, and the only way to learn is to practice speaking.

[Animeniax]

If you're used to character systems, I can see the kana being simple to grasp. I think Americans who are only used to roman characters will have a harder time differentiating between the different squiggly lines.

I don't see the honorifics being that complex, though it seems to boggle a lot of the people here who can't help throwing them around too casually.

Verb forms can be a problem, but in spoken language, I imagine non-native speakers have a hard time differentiating between the forms, so they all end up sounding the same. I don't think this would hinder you from becoming at least fluent in spoken Japanese, though you'll fail some written tests in school.