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Thread: Learning a new language

  1. #41
    Yondaime Hokage Psyke's Avatar
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    The honorifics I mean don't just refer to the ones used for addressing people, but also the way of speaking, etc. There are generally a few types of honorifics:

    1) Talking to a superior (family or work)
    2) Talking to a person of similar level
    3) Talking to a person of lower level
    4) Humbling sentences, meant for politeness

    It's not just about adding -san to a name for respect, but your entire sentence structure can change.

    Simple example:

    "Can I borrow a book?"

    To a person of same/lower level: "Hon o kashitte mo ii?"
    To show politeness : "Hon o kashitte mo ii desu ka?"
    To show respect: "Hon o kashitte kuremasen ka?"

    This is just a very simple example, and there are much more complex forms for other verbs, such as eat:

    "Have you eaten?"

    normal: "Tabemashita ka?"
    honorific: "Meshi agarimashita ka?"

    And this is just the tip of the ice berg, as the Japanese practices very different style of speech to different audiences. Most of the time, the words you hear in anime belong to the more impolite category, and my sensei used to tell us to avoid some of the terms which I thought were part of everyday language.
    "Our hearts are full of memories but not all of them reflect the truth. The heart isn't a recording device. Even important memories change with time. They warp or fade, leaving us with but a shadow of what we hoped to remember." 天の道を行き、全てを司る。これは僕の世界。

  2. #42
    What's up, doc? Animeniax's Avatar
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    Ahh so. Yeah that part can be tricky, though I think it waters down to casual versus respectful phrasing. Something I find that complicates learning Japanese is knowing what's old-fashioned compared to what's currently in use.


    For God will not permit that we shall know what is to come... those who by some sorcery or by some dream might come to pierce the veil that lies so darkly over all that is before them may serve by just that vision to cause that God should wrench the world from its heading and set it upon another course altogether and then where stands the sorcerer? Where the dreamer and his dream?

  3. #43
    Fails at reputation Mizuchi's Avatar
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    oh god, this is starting to scare me... lol. It's hard because we don't have any japanese people at my school *cries deeply* so i found the next best thing and got my chinese friend (shes hott but speaks no japanese or even mandarin/kanji for that matter lol, only her dialect) to learn japanese with me. It's hard to practice speech though because we have no book or reference we can use to practice what we learn.

    For example, like in the first 2 days we were learning japanese we got to like page 45 in the Japanese for dummies book, and I am pretty much still on that page after a month, maybe a little ahead, because its so hard to memorize everything that I've learned because I don't practice it.

    Does anyone know any good books or programs or ways I can practice what I learned? Like I feel stupid cuz its so early in the learning and im already stuck, liek with all these rules.

    Like how verbs change whether they are a u- or an ru- verb, and like this big table of suffixes i didn't even bother to memorize like -iru and -desho and -nagara. Also the table of pronouns, like even if I take notes, after a few days I just forget all of the rules and memorized things, so Im looking for a way to retain the information. Me and my friend cant really speak it to each other cuz we don't know enough to make sentances yet =/.

  4. #44
    Moderator Emeritus NM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuchi
    For example, like in the first 2 days we were learning japanese we got to like page 45 in the Japanese for dummies book, and I am pretty much still on that page after a month, maybe a little ahead, because its so hard to memorize everything that I've learned because I don't practice it.
    Well, that's the main problem right there, lol. The key to ANY language is to practice, practice, and more practice. Just following along the book isn't enough, you should be speaking what you learn from the book with your friend (which is really good that you were able to find someone since you can both converse with each other). This brings back the point that Ryullharu said, immersion. If you're in an environment where nothing but that language is the only spoken dialect, you will catch on to it MUCH faster. This will be great for Masa since he's going to be going to Japan.

    In high school, I took French (went up to French III) and during the time, it was not my best class. I'll admit I slacked most of the time during lecture and only tried hard just to pass the exams and any reports (mostly journal entries). Granted had I put in the time and effort and really studied and put what I learned to use, I would have understood and could speak it to this day.

    I can tell that you really want to learn though and I think its great that you are getting a head start on it. Even if you don't get it now, don't fret. When you take it in college, you will already have some grip on it (your Japanese for Dummies book, Rosetta Stone, and through anime) and you will have an instructor to tell you how to prepare. Just don't be like me and only study to pass.
    This fantastic Sousuke sig was made by the one and only Lucifus! Thanks man!

  5. #45
    Fails at reputation Mizuchi's Avatar
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    it also gets confusing because im learning another language as well, as I am taking the highest level of spanish my school has to offer.

    And yes I know im supposed to immerse myself in a japanese environment and practice, but i just dont know how. I only have a brief understanding of the structure, but i fail to remember any rules or vocabulary . Maybe I should get another textbook that has practice excersizes at the end of each section? Does anyone have a suggestion?

  6. #46
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    I've got Tell Me More from Auralog.
    And although the interface is really old and It has some flaws regarding Kanji learning, the speech recongnition part is nice. You can tune the level you have to pass for prononciation. I put it to the max from the beggining because I think good pronounciation has to be done from the start. After it's too late because you're already used to the bad way you pronounce.

    So you can start in a lexical fashion, and then you also have scene dubbing and everyday life chat etc... all with voice recognition, even for long phrases.

    I don't know if that will be great in the end, but it seems it's not too bad to train oneself when no japanese people is around for help.
    Maybe after sometime like this, a japanese chatroom would be next, and then voip

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  7. #47
    Yondaime Hokage Psyke's Avatar
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    For Vista users, you can try adding this Japanese Audio Word of the Day gadget to your side bar. It's a good and simple way to increase your vocab and Japanese word bank. Ranges from simple words to fairly difficult ones, and includes pronounciation.
    "Our hearts are full of memories but not all of them reflect the truth. The heart isn't a recording device. Even important memories change with time. They warp or fade, leaving us with but a shadow of what we hoped to remember." 天の道を行き、全てを司る。これは僕の世界。

  8. #48
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    Regarding appropriate use of words/level of language/hierachy/sex
    Where is it possible to find a complete database of words/kanjis/rules that clearly specifies all of this?

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  9. #49
    Yondaime Hokage Psyke's Avatar
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    I don't think there's a database that stores all the words. It would be too huge, and won't really make sense to people learning the language, due to the many forms and tenses the words can be in.
    "Our hearts are full of memories but not all of them reflect the truth. The heart isn't a recording device. Even important memories change with time. They warp or fade, leaving us with but a shadow of what we hoped to remember." 天の道を行き、全てを司る。これは僕の世界。

  10. #50
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyke
    I don't think there's a database that stores all the words. It would be too huge, and won't really make sense to people learning the language, due to the many forms and tenses the words can be in.
    I guess there are some rules, indications to follow? even though I'm sure there are lots of xceptions/local customs.

    I'd really like to be sure I don't learn the language the wrong way.

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  11. #51
    What's up, doc? Animeniax's Avatar
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    There are electronic word banks like
    http://www.jbox.com/PRODUCT/GW9600
    or
    http://www.goodsfromjapan.com/produc...20Dictionaries
    might be useful, though expensive. I don't know if they teach usage rules. The Casio model has an input area for writing kana, which is pretty cool. Looking at the specs for the Canon, it has something like 500000+ entries, though many will be duplicates.


    For God will not permit that we shall know what is to come... those who by some sorcery or by some dream might come to pierce the veil that lies so darkly over all that is before them may serve by just that vision to cause that God should wrench the world from its heading and set it upon another course altogether and then where stands the sorcerer? Where the dreamer and his dream?

  12. #52
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyke
    I don't think there's a database that stores all the words. It would be too huge, and won't really make sense to people learning the language, due to the many forms and tenses the words can be in.
    I've tried Thoosje Dock bar, that looks like Vista, but doesn't seem to be compatible with original Gadgets.
    It seems there was a bar developped for XP by microsoft, but not officially released so considered piracy, floating on the internets.


    And Many thanks to Masa for the links he provided.

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  13. #53
    What's up, doc? Animeniax's Avatar
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    What about my links? You ingrate.

    My high school didn't offer Japanese, as I imagine few in the US would, so I wasted 5 years on French. And all those suckers who took Spanish because it would be needed in the real world more and more? They can't remember more than 5 phrases.

    My personal view is that I want fewer foreigners learning Japanese and immigrating to Japan. For visits its ok, but I'm against them living and working there and badly influencing the people and culture. Long live the Republic!


    For God will not permit that we shall know what is to come... those who by some sorcery or by some dream might come to pierce the veil that lies so darkly over all that is before them may serve by just that vision to cause that God should wrench the world from its heading and set it upon another course altogether and then where stands the sorcerer? Where the dreamer and his dream?

  14. #54
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animeniax
    What about my links? You ingrate.

    My high school didn't offer Japanese, as I imagine few in the US would, so I wasted 5 years on French. And all those suckers who took Spanish because it would be needed in the real world more and more? They can't remember more than 5 phrases.

    My personal view is that I want fewer foreigners learning Japanese and immigrating to Japan. For visits its ok, but I'm against them living and working there and badly influencing the people and culture. Long live the Republic!
    Sorry for not patting you

    In a way I understand that you don't want Japan to be "spoiled" by other cultures.
    However it has always been influenced no matter how.
    But I guess their main problem is fertility and the fact that the population is getting older
    everyday.

    But it should'nt stop anyone for learning the language/culture as much as they can.
    And don't be afraid, I think I wouldn't be able to live in Japan for many details are just incompatible with what I seek.

    Maybe somewhere deep in the country where you meet almost no one... but in reality I wonder if such places exist. Plus I don't really need to go that far (distance, language and culture wise) to find such a place.

    I guess you'll despise me for writing that I would like to learn japanese as a personal challenge first, as ways of maybe meeting "open minded" japanese and also for personal confort... being able to read and understand anything japanese (including, but not limited to anime)

    Regarding the casio device, it's interresting. thanks.

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  15. #55
    Hai, your ambition is great. But learning Japanese language is very difficult for you. So leave this ambition and take another one. Best wishes........................................

  16. #56
    Burning out, no really... David75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarathi
    Hai, your ambition is great. But learning Japanese language is very difficult for you. So leave this ambition and take another one. Best wishes........................................
    Why me particularly?
    I guess it's difficult for a lot of people.
    Why would I change my ambition? Do you know what is my ambition for this?

    I know I will never achieve something perfect. I only want to be able to hold basic
    reading and conversations. Be able to understand radio or video shows.
    I leave litterature to the ones born there...

    All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.

  17. #57
    Diego Quality rockmanj's Avatar
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    Hmm...I wonder if there's anyone who can give me some pointers on Hanguel...i can never get enough help with that...

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