Naruto Chapter 384

[Yukimura]

Why is Kakashi being touted as the end all be all ninja? IMO his on-screen/ on page record just doesn't support that assessment. Yes he does sweat badass out of every pore and I don't doubt his skills are super elite but he needs to win a high level battle or two without looking flustered and completely worn out at the end before I can really get behind him as 'strongest in the village'. I am confident Pein would wipe the floor with him, I think Itachi could probably still beat him, though he may be able to resist Tsukiyomi more readily now with his own Mangekyou so that's a bit of a toss up. He failed to kill Diedara, though Diedara was running instead of trying to kill him, and he failed to kill Kazuku, though he technically didn't but Kazuku needed to be killed 5 times. But still, for a ninja a failure is a failure. The fact that Akatsuki level ninja's exist yet Kakashi, who is supposedly the strongest regular ninja in Konoha, has to go to the red line to even have a chance at beating them worries me greatly. The only way I can justify it is if Konoha is the strongest village because it's average ninja are better than other villages average ninja, not because it's best ninja are better than other villages best ninja.

What is with the emo fag thing, I never got that. We have seen ninjas far more emotional than Sasuke was and I don't see anyone calling them emo fags. Besides the only emotions I've seen Sasuke display are anger/hatred/resentment so I don't get how he is emotional.

I'm guessing your thinking calling someone 'emo' is another way of simply calling them emotional, however that is not the common usage of the word 'emo', at least in online parlance. Being called 'emo' usually means a person tends to constantly express emotions like angst, anger, hatred, misery and/or resentment toward someone or something in their life. Said emo persons tend to live their lives consumed and strongly controlled by these feelings, basing many of their lifestyle choices around them..

People who hate their lives and want to slit their wrists, people who hate their lives and try to act out by dressing in weird clothes and wearing strange hairdos and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' (usually punk) music, people who hate their lives and sit at home writing angst filled poems about their feelings of hate for their lives while dressed in weird clothes, and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' (usually punk) music, these are all examples of people who would be called 'emo' by online society.

Sasuke has been considered emo for as long as I've been following Naruto, and I suspect it is because he gets so angsty and whiny whenever he's reminded of Itachi or of defeat (and hence Itachi again). He also tends to take actions based in some way on his anger towards Itachi. Plus, he has a fairly emo hairstyle, but that's just my personal opinion.

Post time skip Sasuke seems to be less, or at least differently emo than pre skip Saskue due to reduced angst, however once you're seen as emo it's pretty much impossible for people to not see you as emo until you've completely eliminated any emo tendencies (and sometimes not even then). Until Sasuke stops living and breathing only to kill Itachi he's probably going to be considered emo by quite a few people.

[Abdula]

Ah Yukimura, No one is saying that Kakashi is the end all be all ninja atleast thats not what I was saying. What DS was saying is that Kakashi is probably the most gifted ninja currently in the village which I feel is true, nothing else. No one thinks that Kakashi is the strongest ninja or anything of the sort he is not even in the same league as the major villages in Naruto.

Now I'm just going to randomly quote you:

The fact that Akatsuki level ninja's exist yet Kakashi, who is supposedly the strongest regular ninja in Konoha has to go to the red line to even have a chance at beating them worries me greatly.

That because they are Akatsuki. They comprise the strongest ninja from whichever particular village they are from and Kakashi at best is an upper-mid level opponent no way he could take on an S rank ninja one on one.

The only way I can justify it is if Konoha is the strongest village because it's average ninja are better than other villages average ninja, not because it's best ninja are better than other villages best ninja.

Which is true I think something to that extent was said earlier on in the series. Look at Kakashi for example he is the leaf’s best ninja but he was only on par with Zabuza who was the weakest of the mist swordsmen and I’m guessing only about mid level rank in the village.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Being called 'emo' usually means a person tends to constantly express emotions like angst, anger, hatred, misery and/or resentment toward someone or something in their life. Said emo persons tend to live their lives consumed and strongly controlled by these feelings, basing many of their lifestyle choices around them..

People who hate their lives and want to slit their wrists, people who hate their lives and try to act out by listening to angst-filled 'alternative' music, people who hate their lives and sit at home writing angst filled poems about their feelings of hate for their lives while dressed in weird clothes, and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' music, these are all examples of people who would be called 'emo' by online society.

I find that offensive.

[SilentSnake]

His emotions didn't backfire on him when he met Oro, if I remember correctly when Oro did that doujutsu thing he always does Sasuke was able to keep his head together and manage to escape. He was going to give up the scroll in order to save their lives because it was pretty clear that there was no way they would be able to defeat him what backfired on him was Naruto as usual.

When I joined here it was like ep 39 released IIRC, it was when I got hooked up to Naruto and rewatched those eps 2-3 times so I remember it quite clearly :

You forgot this crucial moment when Sasuke stood mortified in front of Oro while Whiny and Completely Useless Sakura was criticizing him after saving Naruto's life by throwing a kunai to hold unconscious Naruto from falling to the ground. (or was it before that?)

Anyway = he got emo and couldn't do shit, I was always Sasuke-liker, but it's just true.
No point in denial.

[Abdula]

Um his thought process then was that if he fought and died he won't be able to achieve his goal of defeating Itachi and Itachi told him to run and live solely to defeat him. The reason he was like that was because he had to decide whether or not he should throw away his goals in order to help Naruto and the others.

It wasn't because he was emotional nor really was it because of Oro it was because of how Itachi told him to live. He had to survive no matter what so going into a battle where his chances of surviving were pretty much nil didn't make any sense which is why he was going to give up the scroll and walk away in the first place. The only thing there is that he was in utter shock at how stupid Naruto was and so was I.

Honestly why Oro didn't kill Naruto then didn't make any sense to me especially considering that Oro was a member of Akatsuki and knew what there goals were. Even later on during the Sannin battle when he tried to kill Naruto it was because he knew what would happen if Akatsuki got there hands on him, he told Tsunade that killing Naruto would be doing them a favor and he was right. I guess the reason he didn't kill Naruto then was because Kishi probably didn't plan on the whole Akatsuki angle yet but still given Oro's character or atleast what his character was made out to be he should have killed Naruto then.

Reeks of plot holes.

[Yukimura]

@Abdula You just find it offensive because it describes you don't you...
As to Oro not killing Naruto some potential spackle would be that Oro saw Naruto as a potential test subject to play with later and didn't think Jiriaya would ever show up and remove his seal, or he might have simply figured sealing the Kyubi chakra and dropping his limp corpse a few hundred feet would do the job.


Another Plot Hole that I find distressing is the Akatsuki membership itself.
The fact that Akatsuki is made up of so many people who demonstrate skill levels at or above the kage level, gives me great cause for concern. Sasori beat the Third Kazekage, Oro beat the Fourth Kazekage, Diedara beat the Fifth Kazekage (I'm starting to think the Sand just plain suck), Oro also compelled the Third Hokage to use a suicide attack, and Pein beat the potential 5th Hokage. Itachi has resoundingly defeated two of those people already (Itachi vs Sasori would have been a really interesting fight I think) putting him on the list, and Kazuku fought the First Hokage and lived to tell the tale. It feels like something is wrong when the 'strongest ninjas in the village' are so often beaten by rejects. Maybe being in a village really does make you weaker as an individual fighter, like [whoever said that] said.

[Abdula]

Actually apart form dressing "weirdly" yeah it does describe me or someone I used to be I should say then again a refined scholar from a middle class family could've described me back then too (oh how things have changed). I'm sure it could describe alot of people too but I don't particularly care I was just being funny.

I highly doubt that Oro thought that dropping Naruto would kill him and if he was going to kill him he certainly would have done so in a more direct manner. Certainly putting the seal won't have stopped Akatsuki from capturing Naruto, in fact it would have only made it easier if Naruto couldn't use the kyuubi at all. Oro supposedly wanted to stop are atleast hinder Akatsuki for some reason other than the fact that they were trying to kill him ( I suppose a group of S rank ninjas who control the bijuu dominating the world didn't sit too well with him)and since the Kyuubi is their biggest target I think eliminating it then would have been what he would have done since he did attempt to do it later.

Anyway this brings up another plot hole, whether or not killing Naruto would kill the Kyuubi but it doesn't make sense discussing that now.

The Kazekages being killed of so easily bothered me too. It just goes to show that the hokages really aren't always the strongest ninjas in the village. But you could look at it another way as you've said being in a village really could make you weak. The kages are all S rank ninjas but they are always in a village which could create complacency and since they are in a village they would come to rely on others and not increase their own strength. Come to think of it isn't that one of the reasons why Itachi killed the Uchiha clan, because they became complacent and didn't "test the limits of their capacity." Two the kages are a protected position so they don't actually participate in many or any battles and no matter how strong you are/were if you go a long time without fighting your skills will become dull.

On the other hand the Akatsuki members are all rogue ninjas who survive on their own and are in constant battles. Since their survival depends entirely on their own strength they will unceasingly attempt to become stronger and keep growing and the constant battling would only further heighten their senses and allow them to hone their skills.

So Akatsuki members will always be at their peaks and they will always be ready for and expecting battles where as the hokages are sheltered and protected. If you look at it that way then in a battle the rogue ninja will always defeat the sheltered one.

[SilentSnake]

Um his thought process then was that if he fought and died he won't be able to achieve his goal of defeating Itachi and Itachi told him to run and live solely to defeat him. The reason he was like that was because he had to decide whether or not he should throw away his goals in order to help Naruto and the others.

If he chose to stand and think about THAT instead of saving a friend or at least DO something then he must have been thinking way too deep = emo

And not very ninja'ish either...

Even Sakura was less distracted, and at the time Sakura was the winner of every "Who should die first" or "Which character Kishimoto should remove from Naruto" polls cause her mastery of uselessness was too annoying for anyone to handle...

Just face it, he screwed up back then

EDIT: It was clearly said in anime/manga that if Naruto dies = Kyuubi dies

That's pretty much why Kyuubi chose to help him at all in the first place.

[Abdula]

I don't really think of it as screwing up he was in a lose lose situation and he did eventually make the "right" decision so.....

When was it clearly said and even if it was said Kishi changes things ever so often. If the Kyuubi will die if Naruto dies then why were they afraid of the Kyuubi being released in the event of Naruto's death and why did the Kyuubi warn Sasuke not to kill Naruto.

I thought the Kyuubi just tried to help Naruto because he was attempting to gain Naruto's trust and convince Naruto to release him. If the kyuubi's existence rely depends on Naruto's life then he should have started "helping" Naruto earlier and if his life really depends on Naruto then he certainly doesn't seem to care much about it.

[SilentSnake]

I don't really think of it as screwing up he was in a lose lose situation and he did eventually make the "right" decision so.....

I didn't critize him for his decision, I only wanted to pinpoint the fact that his emotions did backfire at him at this very point, nothing more.

Right now he doesn't lose control over himself cause he matured.

His fights are awesome to watch, he's focused and brilliant with indifferent face as if he was just solving yet another riddle, He seems well prepared for this encounter, but I think it's just Kishi playing with us.

On the other hand, I doubt that Itachi will just own Sasuke easily, I place my bet on tactical retreat with some smart talk at the end with Itachi being pleased that Sasuke got stronger than he anticipated.

EDIT: I think they were afraid of Kyuubi being released in a way that Naruto dies BECAUSE he is taken over by Kyuubi (tails formation and Naruto losing control over himself). Can't be sure about that one though. Kyuubi would never help Naruto if his death meant his release, he helps him because that's the only way he can live longer and wait for a chance to be released. As for Kyuubi warning Sasuke to not kill Naruto = dunno, can't remember

[Abdula]

Thats the way Itachi fights he is always reserved and never goes all out. Itachi and everyone else expects that Sasuke will eventually surpass him and this is just another test, I hope we'll soon find out for what. Sasuke's fighting style and tactics are obviously heavily influenced by his training with Oro, Kabuto and Oro were the same way. Most of the ninjas in Naruto are too its has more to do with knowing your own strengths and limitations than anything else.

At the rate its going Naruto being taken over by the Kyuubi will literally kill him and destroy his body not just simply release the kyuubi so I don't think thats it.

[SilentSnake]

At the rate its going Naruto being taken over by the Kyuubi will literally kill him and destroy his body not just simply release the kyuubi so I don't think thats it.

Kyuubi just being released out of Naruto's mouth/ass with Naruto undamaged would be fun to see

[rockmanj]

Kyuubi just being released out of Naruto's mouth/ass with Naruto undamaged would be fun to see

I wholly disagree with that; I mean i know its a spirit and all, but still...well, actually it probably wouldnt be that bad. It seems most powerful justus come out the mouth anyway.

[SilentSnake]

I wonder how long would it take for Naruto to puke almost Infinite amount of chakra out of him.

Sounds like an idea for a filler episode, or even an arc...

I bet Oro would be able to pull it off 5 times faster

[Darky]

Well it could just be the Kyuubi warning Sasuke not to kill Naruto could just be about self preservation. Make it sound like a threat and it looks like it has a deeper meaning to it while all the Kyuubi wants is to have Naruto survive long enough for Kyuubi to take over.

And Oro should really just be a girl, i'm pretty sure it would've driven Jiraiya crazy back in the days. Oro who would be able to do just about anything involving her mouth and well we know Tsunade.

[darkshadow]

Ok lets see. according to the databooks, and his known history, kakashi is currently the most gifted ninja and strongest jounin in konoha.
During the 3rd great ninja war, that we see in the gaiden, minato AND kakashi became pretty famous, minato for his crazy yellow flash thing technique, and kakashi for beating the shit out of jounins at his young age.
After jiraiya asked tsunade who would become hokage if she died ( or something), she stated 1st, we have kakashi.......and naruto, not gai, anko or the other strong jounins we know.

Kakashi stated himself that his stamina isn't that high, and from what i concluded from the zabuza fight, he doesn't feel like tiring himself needlesly, at first the fight seemed to be pretty even or even in favor of zabuza, but after kakashi got serious he turned it around so fast, he was back handing zabuza with his eyes closed.

Also jiraiya mananged to fight 3 peins before seeing he needed to go hermit (iirc), I don't think 1 pein would "wipe the floor" with kakashi, you are forgetting that sharingan is a very powerful tool, without it, sasuke wouldve never beaten kyuubi naruto. Also i think its fair to say since pein beat jiraiya, he would beat nearly anyone else.

He failed to kill deidara yes, but he was using his attack for the very first time, he even needed to activate it via a handseal, which is unusual for normal mangekyou, still he managed to zap off an arm at that altitude/movementspeed. He zapped away an entire explosion later on.

Deidara beating gaara, well deidara was just the perfect opponent for him(flight, mixing clay with sand), actually deidara is the perfect opponent for everyone if there is a wide open space, gaara managed to counter so well cause of his control over sand, which was all over the place, i bet that if sasori went in there he would've died a horrible death.

Also don't forget his ability to open gates.

For known genius lvl konoha ninja i think it would be ranked as:
1. sarutobi, youngest hokage ever "god of all ninja" "the professor"
2. minato, yellow flash
3. kakashi, pure absolute genius, mangekyou sharingan
4. Itachi, pure genius, mangekyou sharingan.


Been awhile since i did a long post. meh

Oh and that's why i dont think some barely semi-genius ninja (sasuke) couldve attained mangekyou in a similar fashion.

[Abdula]

Two important things you left out were that Kakashi’s goal was not to kill Deidara what he was trying to do then was protect Naruto who was chasing after Gaara’s dead body and then get back to Sakura and Chiyo. Killing Deidara was not his intention and like most of the leaf ninjas Kakashi is pretty laid back more so than anyone else in the village besides Shikamaru ofcourse, so if they can win or finish a battle without having to go too far or push themselves then that is what they would try to do.

About Deidara defeating Gaara, Gaara should have and would have won that battle if not for him having to save the sand village. Gaara was stronger than Deidara, he had a superior technique and he had a massive advantage. The reason he lost was because as Deidara said he did the typical Kage thing and sacrificed himself to save the village.

Sasori v Deidara....... ha.

Minato was the youngest Hokage ever not the third and although the third was regarded as the strongest that was strictly because of the fact that he knew so many jutsus. Secondly the fourth like I said in previous posts would have to have been the strongest strictly because of the plot and he was said to be the greatest ninja the village ever produced so I don't see how Sarutobi could have been better than him. Plus I never heard of Sarutobi having any original jutsu's and the strongest jutsus we've seen thus far Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and Rasengan were the fourth's original techniques thus he was stronger than Sarutobi just by the level of his techniques alone.

As for your list, this is what mine would look like although there are far too many ninjas to mention them all but the major ones would be:

1. Madara, major villain in the story thus most likely stronger than almost everyone else, genius founder of the Uchiha clan also he supposedly summoned the Kyuubi.

2. Shodai, founder of the leaf village, first hokage, supposedly defeated Madara

3. Minato, greatest ninja the village ever produced, youngest hokage, creator of the strongest jutsus, defeated Kyuubi.

4. Jiraiya, Oro, Itachi. I put them before the third because the rule is in Naruto that the next generation always surpasses the previous ones and I believe Oro and Jiraiya most definitely surpassed their teacher. Oro is an obvious mad genius and although people don't view Jiraiya as one he most certainly was. Itachi is there because he is an obvious genius, he is incredibly strong and he did wipe out the most gifted clan in leaf history including his father who I assume was also considered a great "genius." I didn't want to put him in front of Jiraiya since I don't think he was "stronger" than Jiraiya although I would consider him more of a genius than Jiraiya was. Itachi did defeat Oro something Jiraiya was unable to do yet I don't think Jiraiya would lose to Itachi but based solely on "genius" it would be Itachi, Oro, then Jiraiya but I'm putting them on the same level.


5. Sarutobi. He was trained by the Hokages and taught the Sannin. Old man was great, clearly he had to be a genius just to learn every technique in the village, he couldn’t master them all ofcourse but still to know all of them damn.

6. Sasuke, not a semi genius a true genius who already defeated one of the people I put above him namely Oro and is destined to defeat Itachi. I also put him in this spot because by rule the next generation is supposed to surpass the previous one and Sasuke has clearly surpassed this next person. In case anyone was wondering I would put Tsunade in the five spot as well behind Sasuke but I don't care to talk about her.

7. Next up we have Kakashi, son of the genius White Fang, student of the fourth hokage, teacher of team seven, leaf's number one ninja and clearly a gifted ninja.

Then we have Shikaku and Shikamaru Nara although strength wise I'm not sure where they would rank but they are exceptionally intelligent and fulfill the role of the more traditional genius. Then we have Neji and the Hyuuga clan followed by the rest of the riff-raff.

- Now that is what you would call a long post.

[darkshadow]

Minato was the youngest Hokage ever not the third and although the third was regarded as the strongest that was strictly because of the fact that he knew so many jutsus. Secondly the fourth like I said in previous posts would have to have been the strongest strictly because of the plot and he was said to be the greatest ninja the village ever produced so I don't see how Sarutobi could have been better than him. Plus I never heard of Sarutobi having any original jutsu's and the strongest jutsus we've seen thus far Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and Rasengan were the fourth's original techniques thus he was stronger than Sarutobi just by the level of his techniques alone.

lolwut? why would I say something without having a profound reason for it, sarutobi WAS the youngest hokage ever, and i don't think there will be ever anyone younger then him, he was the ultimate ninja who didn't have any special abilities like bya/shar/rinnegan, or a crazy hax jutsu like hiraishin no jutsu the 4th had, yet he became the strongest ninja ever.
If 1st in his prime could've beaten Madara, I don't think sarutobi in his prime would've had any problem with him either.

For this same reason I place kakashi as a higher lvl genius then itachi, since kakashi became chuunin/jounin/anbu all younger then itachi and without sharingan, which he gained at the aftermath of the 3rd war.
Same reason i don't regard sasuke as a genius, cause just like obito said:
"Though i'm called "Elite" cause i was born into the Uchiha clan.........I'm a loser."
Yet Obito activated sharingan with 2-2 tomoe's, sasuke only 2-1 tomoe's.
Sasuke came as far as he is now cause of orochimaru's teachings and ofcourse sharingan, not cause of some innate genius.

Oh and if we are gonna place more dead ppl in the list of genius ppl, kakashi's father is prolly up there with sarutobi.

Oh and here is proof ofcourse, since you won't believe me:



The more i look at it the crazier sarutobi becomes for me.

[Abdula]

Dude I'm very disappointed with you. One you called Hiraishin a hax and completely ignored the fact that I also mentioned Rasengan and Shiki Fujin. The latter of which was the only thing the "great" third could do to even hinder Orochimaru.

Then you say the old man who couldn't even beat Oro would have been able to defeat Madara, pure BS.

Then you talk about you consider Kakashi more of a genius that Itachi because he became a chuunin etc before Itachi. Kakashi graduated at about age 5 and became a chuunin at age 6, Itachi graduated at 7 and became a chuunin at ten, they joined the anbu at around the same age. Now the reason I think your reasoning is flawed here is because a few years especially when they are that young doesn't really mean anything and Itachi has already clearly surpassed Kakashi. Secondly what age you achieve your accomplishments doesn't matter, its how far you go look at Kakashi he started early and he peaked early. Its about potential and when you talk about potential Kakashi isn't even in Itachi's league. I suppose you think Kakashi was more of a genius than someone like Orochimaru too then.

About the sharingan so you discredit all of Itachi accomplishments because he had the sharingan, so it doesn't count because he had natural gifts that gave him an advantage over everyone. That doesn't make any sense he had natural gifts, talents and abilities you can't take anything away from him because one of them happened to be a bloodline limit. So Neji isn't talented because he had a bloodline limit right, or someone like Shikamaru who though you may dispute it his talents, and his intelligence are also natural and are a result of his "bloodline." If so you should take away from Kakashi's accomplishments too because he is the son of The White Fang, a ninja who was on the level of the sannin and who for the early part of Kakashi's life trained him personally. If not for him not only would Kakashi not be as talented as he is because his talent too comes from his "bloodline" but he wouldn't have had his accomplishments so young if he wasn't trained since birth by someone who essentially was a sannin.

Now we come to Sasuke he activated his Sharingan when he was twelve, Obito when he was thirteen not much difference there and the fact that he had only one tomoe in one eye at that point doesn't matter because almost immediately afterwards he was 2-2 as you put it. Then you go on to say that Sasuke came as far as he did because of Orochimaru's teachings and the sharingan not because of innate genius. Well how could he have learned and progressed so much if not for some innate genius. IF you take the time to think about it the reason Naruto was not able to progress much during the time skip was because he has no innate genius or talent and you certainly won't be able to learn, master or excel at anything like Sasuke did if you have no talent for it. How about the fact that Sasuke was the number one ninja from his graduating class and was obviously above all the other rookies even though at that point he didn't have the sharingan.

Its funny that you disregard Sasuke and Itachi because they have the sharingan yet you think so highly of Kakashi who if not for the sharingan would be just an average level ninja. Certainly without the sharingan he wouldn't be the leaf's number one ninja and he would be completely useless against Akatsuki. He most certainly won't have the copy ninja moniker without it.

Oh and if you are talking about people being as strong as they are solely because of who taught them, I know I already mentioned Kakashi and his dad but what about the third hokage who you regard so highly. He was trained by not one but two hokages, one of which happened to be the founder of the leaf village.

The reason I didn't put some people on the list like Kakashi's dad, or the second hokage for that matter was because we have seen and or know very little/absolutely nothing about them.

As for your "proof" if you're idiotic enough to believe that the third became hokage at that point when he was about I would say 12 then you are a complete idiot. Things that disprove this, one the fourth was said to be the youngest hokage, no way a 12 year old was the hokage, if he did become hokage then and the first was obviously still alive at that point then when did the second ever reign as hokage. Since the third died when he was 69 you're saying that he was hokage for a span of 57 years not including the fourth's reign. The faces of the hokage on the mountain alone disprove this since you would think that the faces would be carved into the mountain soon after a new kage is appointed. It happened sometime within the 2.5 years since Tsunade became hokage yet the third is obviously in his late 30's or early 40's there.

Another reason why that is wrong is because the third wasn't the hokage when he was the teacher of the sannin, the hokage has many responsibilities and certainly the hokage doesn't have the time to be teaching their own teams. Take team seven for example Kakashi only got his own team of genin to teach after he left the anbu because at that point he had no other responsibilities beyond completing the missions he was assigned. The third became hokage after he taught the sannin because after he became hokage he had immediately decided that Oro would be his eventual succesor at that point Oro was still "good." Yet another reason why that is wrong is because of Danzou. Danzou was supposed to have competed against Sarutobi for the position of hokage and based on his appearance I would say he is either in his late 50's or early to mid 60's so he would be even younger than the third.

You know why its crazy because its wrong, the text could have simply been wrong or it was obviously intended to show that at that point they began training the third to become the future hokage.

[Yukimura]

Abdula managed to wedge a rational and well supported point into all of his geneic "you're stupid" comments!? This is unprecedented...

I would have to agree that the Hokage's passing on the title scene was probably more of a "you're going to be next" type thing based on the other occurances in the story at times in the past. However I have to agree with DS about the innate special ability aspect. Having a special ability is cool and all and tends to make a ninja much better if fully mastered, however anyone who can go toe to toe with the best of the people with special abilities when they have only traditional skills, talent for picking things up, and hard work deserves more points.

Having a special ability doesn't automatically make a ninja amazing, but it tends to give them a much higher peak potential than a mundane ninja, as well as give them at least some degree of a natural advantage over a normal person. Even if a special ability user hasn't fully mastered their ability they still get some amount of benefit from it that a normal person wouldn't have through natural ability alone. Sasuke's Sharingan is a good example, seconds after it activated it helped him start turning the tide of a battle he was losing while still working with only a normal skill set. It also allowed him to instantly learn to perform techniques Lee had to train for years to perfect the form of. Sure Sasuke was great without it, but once he obtained it and started using it it cheapened him by giving him a shorter path to greatness than he would have had to follow without it.

Another good example is Hinata, she seems pretty weak and essentially useless as a fighter, however she has an innate special ability and a fighting style that is built around that special ability and these gives her a boost in combat that serve to offset her otherwise poor ninja stats. Without Byakugan and Genle Fist Hinata would just be a dumber pre-skip Sakura.

Then you have someone like Itachi, the Sharingan grand master. To my knowledge the only thing we've seen Itachi do without the Sharingan is cast a genjutsu on Naruto and move his hands very quickly. Since we haven't seen Itachi do anything major without the Sharingan activated, it's hard to guess how capable he would be if it was some how disabled. His accomplishments with the Sharingan are amazing and he has clearly trained it hard and honed it with effort, but it is still gives him a huge natural advantage that a non-user could never duplicate through simple training. When it comes to winning fights of course, having mastered the Sharingan is going to leas to a lot of success, but I don't think that success is as praiseworthy as that of someone like Jiraiya who only seems to possesses techniques he either created himself of learned from others.

[Abdula]

Really all of that is just the advantage you get from having natural abilities. Its no different from someone whose family has a history of being either athletically or intellectually gifted being naturally good at athletics or academics. Sure it would be easier to them than it is for others in some cases like Sasuke and or Neji compared to Lee, it may even be second nature but that cannot and should not take away from their accomplishments. Kakashi doesn't have any special abilities which is exactly why Kakashi he doesn't stand a chance against Akatsuki who all have special abilities. Sure it may be unfair that some things come easy to some people while others may work at it for years and still never be good at it or as successful as others but that is just life.

The fact that they have special abilities that give them obvious benefits or increase their potential far beyond what anyone else could hope to accomplish doesn't mean that anyone should belittle them.

Naruto for example has the Kyuubi which should give him a major advantage over everyone else but he can't utilize it properly. In fact you could say that if anyone else possessed the Kyuubi they would make better use of it. Then there are people like Lee would know they have no natural talent, gifts or abilities so they work hard to overcome that disadvantage. Then there are guys like Neji who despite all his natural gifts and abilities still works hard to constantly improve himself. Then there are people like Hinata who have no great aspirations and choose to just rely solely on their natural abilities. Its just life some people have to work harder than others to accomplish the same things and some people no matter how hard they work will never accomplish what someone else was able to do.

Abdula managed to wedge a rational and well supported point into all of his generic "you're stupid" comments!? This is unprecedented...

STFU, I always do that, this is not unprecedented. I know sometimes it may not appear that way but there are very good reasons for that. One of which is that sometimes I'm just in shock by the sheer stupidity of some posts I read.