Kimi ga Nozomu Eien season 2

[shinta|hikari]

Your analysis of Haruka is unfair. Her situation is not her fault at all (unless being unable to dodge a fast-moving vehicle is a shortcoming). The issue of her going back to a coma if she receives the shock of being told the truth is not in her control either. She cant just "move on", since even the doctor recognizes the danger of telling her the truth. Its not that she was a wuss and cant accept facts, but her condition at that time is just too risky, being unstable both mentally and physically. Time would have gradually solved this problem. It just took a greater toll on everyone else than they expected.

[Ryllharu]

Takayuki made the wrong choice when Haruka woke up, it would have been better for everyone (except maybe himself) if he had stayed with Mitsuki and let Haruka's parents tell her that he had to move on while she was in the coma. It would have been hard for him since he did care about her, but in the end it would have destroyed Mitsuki and she didn't deserve to be tossed away like that.

Haruka couldn't really make the choice to give him up since everyone lied to her, but you can't live in the past. She needed to accept reality or just go back into her coma or die. If she can't face reality why should everyone have to play along in her fantasy at the expense of their own happiness. Is it nice? Yes. Does it demonstrate a very deep love? Yes. But is it an ultimately stupid and doomed course of action, causing more aggregate pain to everyone involved then just forcing her to deal with life... YES!

You are free to defend Mitsuki all you want (I didn't do a bad job just going over it objectively) but attacking Haruka is not the way to defend Mitsuki.

There wasn't a choice for Takayuki. He did genuinely love both girls, which is why he's often attacked as wishy-washy. He liked Mitsuki first, loved Haruka first, and loved Mitsuki later. He's not so cruel a person to leave Haruka alone, thinking she woke up days after the accident. The doctor's analysis was correct, she needed to be eased back into the present. Akane proved that when she broke down from all the pressure.

Mitsuki didn't get tossed aside. Akane forced her away. She refused to let her anywhere near Haruka after "what she did" and that's what allowed Takayuki to so easily fall back to Haruka. It forced them to separate.

In the end, Haruka knew that from the start. The picture book was one of her favorite stories, and she recognized that she had become one of the roles immediately after she woke up the second time. She had become trapped in the past, and came to terms relatively quickly. Well, not so fast if you watch the Akane Maniax OVA (which takes place in between the end of the series and its epilogue during the final credits). She knew that she couldn't keep Takayuki captive, it wasn't fair to anyone. Haruka made the selfless decision to let him go, all on her own.

The doctors made the correct decision to keep Haruka uninformed. They were right. Luckily, Haruka came back out of it again, and reached the appropriate conclusion quickly.

Unlike School Days where no one was innocent, KgNE has characters with consistently good intentions. Akane feels awful at being so cruel to Mitsuki, her idol. Misguided anger is the only thing that lets her pull it off. Akane prevents Mitsuki from overcoming her guilt at indirectly injuring Haruka. Why? She doesn't want to see her sister hurt by Takayuki's change of heart. Takayuki feels the same, and that's why he goes back to Haruka. Mitsuki took the opportunity to comfort Takayuki because she didn't want to see him kill himself.

If she had wanted to, Mitsuki could have stolen Takayuki back in high school. She didn't have to let Haruka confess first. She could have coldly turned her back on Haruka long ago, and confessed to him. It would have worked, he liked her too. Akane could have never forgiven Mitsuki, but she proudly proclaims her to be her idol during the epilogue. Haruka didn't have to let Takayuki move on. She could have clung to him even after she woke the second time.

[Yukimura]

I understand it is unfair but I don't mean to blame her personally for her condition. However her condition created a similar situation as what would have been created if she was an ordinary girl who abruptly went away from her bf for three years without a word and then came back and became obsessively clingy to the guy as if nothing had been changed between them by her three year absence. Such a girl would cause strife in the lives of all the people around her. In that situation I would say the girl was being selfish and needed to accept that time had moved on while she was away and she had lost the right to pursue the relationship with her old boyfriend.

In Haruka's case the parameters of the situation are very similar, yet it's completely not her fault that she acts the way she does. There's no malicious intent, which means instead of hating her for being a weak willed clinger, I pity her for being a weak-willed, mentally unstable clinger. However, I don't think the proper course of action changes. The fact that she might not have been able to handle the situation does not make it 'right' for her to continue to disrupt the lives of all the people left behind. It's so much more tragic in Haruka's case, since she's so innocent, yet I still feel the burden of responsibility falls on her. I agonized over this when I watch the series because life was so unfair to Haruka, forcing her into the situation she was in, but still, she was in that situation and as hard as it must have been I think she took the only proper path.

EDIT: @ Ryllharu: It wasn't my intent to attack Haruka to defend Mitsuki, it was my intent to lay the responsibility of controlling the outcome of the situation on her and point out what I think the best choice she could make for everyone involved was. I can't attack Haruka because she got the shit kicked out of her by life and it sucks balls, but I don't let the amount of shit that has been kicked out of someone absolve them of responsibilities.

If Akane never snapped, Haruka could have held on to Takayuki for God only knows how long unwittingly destroying Mitsuki and increasingly burdening Akane and her parents. I think Takayuki would have stood by her indefinitely out of both duty and the remains of his love. If this had continued eventually my pity would crumble and I would begin to feel anger (just like Akane did). I know it wasn't Haruka's intent to cause all this pain but the results are what they are.

MORE EDIT: Where do you all think Akane fits in here? By my thought process the terrible thing she did to Haruka was for the greater good, but it was still a terrible thing to do. Supposedly it could have killed Haruka, but instead it forced the situation into a state where it could more easily be resolved. If not for Akane I have little doubt I would have eventually come to hate Haruka even knowing how unfair it was to her.

[Ryllharu]

You can't blame Haruka for anything. She doesn't even know she's a "weak-willed, mentally unstable clinger." To her, it's only been a week. That's what the doctors tell her anyway. She has no idea it's been three years.

If they had told her right away, and she didn't fall back into a coma, I believe she'd come to the exact same conclusion she did at the end of the series. She would let him go. That's the kind of character she is.

Granted, it seems to take her another 2-3 years to finally get over losing Takayuki to the flow of time, but she knows it was the right thing to do.
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I wonder what will happen to Mitsuki in the alternate ending...She's not quite as selfless as Haruka, right now I can't see a good ending for her at all.

[shinta|hikari]

@Yuki - Being innocent means that you have no burden of responsibility. She didnt know she was disrupting their lives, and had no intention to do so in the least bit. She couldnt have done anything even if she wanted to.

Its not even about her being pitiful, or getting the short end of the stick. I really dont understand how the responsibility can fall on her, unless you are going to say that her very existence/life is wrong, which is very very contentious.

[TheBladeChild]

Dang i never imagined that this thread would grow so quickly. Anyway all I want from this season is for her to have some sort of peace and for everyone not to have their lives so screwed up.

[shinta|hikari]

I guess no one really expected a second season (a real one), and now that it is coming all the pent up feelings about the show simply resurfaced.

[Ryllharu]

We've already exceeded the number of posts in the old thread.

http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=12364

I see I wrote an equally long-ass post in there as well. Interesting to see what I thought of the series then compared to now. At least I remembered the details a little more clearly. I've got no exams today, so I'll probably spend some time rewatching the series once more.

[Yukimura]

You can't blame Haruka for anything. She doesn't even know she's a "weak-willed, mentally unstable clinger." To her, it's only been a week. That's what the doctors tell her anyway. She has no idea it's been three years.

@Yuki - Being innocent means that you have no burden of responsibility. She didnt know she was disrupting their lives, and had no intention to do so in the least bit. She couldnt have done anything even if she wanted to.

I must disagree with you two because of my own personal beliefs about blame and responsibility. I think we're going to start going down the path of the School Days thread soon, but I'm not MFauli so I think we can discuss this civilly.

After having Oedipus rammed into my conscious back in high school I felt he got a raw deal. He didn't know, he couldn't have known, and it shouldn't have been held against him yet he did commit a crime, and when he found out he manned up and faced the consequences (most people wouldn't rip out their own eyes, but hey Oedipus was pimp like that). Anyway, by the same logic I can't brush aside the fact that Haruka, while she didn't know what she was doing and couldn't really do anything else, was still hurting people left and right. Though she was completely ignorant of this I feel she must still bear the blame of committing the 'crime' of hurting the people around her.

The situation is complicated greatly by the catch-22 that if any of her loved ones had told that she was hurting them it would have hurt her which would have in turn hurt them. The whole cast chose to accept the pain Haruka caused them in order to spare her (and potentially themselves) from suffering even more pain. That was their choice to make and I can see how it . The whole situation was basically a perpetual pain machine with the off switch being Haruka finding out that she was 3 years in the future and Takayuki was with Mitsuki.

To explain how my blame system works I'll make a crime analogy. There are some crimes where the victim has to press charges for the perpetrator to be tried and punished, and there are some where it doesn't matter if the victim doesn't want press charges the perp will still be tried. I see the pain that Haruka caused as the latter type. To me, her ignorance and mental frailty are not an absolution of the blame she is be due for hurting others, because hurting others is 'wrong', and if you do something is 'wrong' you are a wrongdoer.

I don't think either of you are incorrect in presenting a defense based on her circumstances because I think you both see what happened as something that can be forgiven completely based on the circumstances. But to me a crime is a crime and a criminal is any person who commits any crime, the only place circumstances would come into play for me would be in the assignment of punishments.

While I believe causing someone pain gives you the blame for that pain no matter the circumstances I also believe that only the intent to cause pain or willful negligence that leads to pain warrants some sort of penance being owed.

If I were judging the cast I would find them all guilty of causing undue pain for somone else, but the only person who I wouldn't think owed a penance to anyone would be Haruka
.
I don't think that my belief system is fair nor do I think everyone else should have this same belief system (that would actually be pretty terrible), but I believe it is the 'right' way to deal with accountability, as laid down by the old white people who decided what 'right' and 'wrong' meant a long time ago.

If you see the pain Haruka caused as something that you can't get away with no matter what the circumstances then she holds blame for the consequences of her own condition, even though it was completely out of her control. If you see the pain Haruka caused as something that was a product of a situation and don't assign blame without intent/knowledge then she deserves no blame. It all depends on personal values.

[Ryllharu]

Have you seen Akane Maniax, Yuki?

Haruka suffered pretty badly as far as I'm concerned, as did Akane. Haruka lost the one she loved, came to the realization that her accident, which wasn't even her fault, ruined 3 lives (Takayuki's, Mitsuki's, and to a less extent, Akane's) and had to deal with the knowledge of that for another 2-4 years. We see her in the KgNE epilogue happy (if a little sad still) but certainly functional. The Akane Maniax OVA takes place in between and shows a rather different picture. She sits in the dark, clutching the picture book, alone.

If anyone is to blame for all the tragedy of the series, it is of course, Mitsuki. Moreover, she knows it, and paid a huge price for it.

Mitsuki delayed Takayuki in order to have him give her a "birthday present." A ring is far more symbolic than a simple birthday present to a friend, especially considering what finger she puts it on. Furthermore, she hesitates just a little when she tells him it is her birthday, so we can't even be sure she's truthful about that.

Mitsuki had to deal with all that guilt. She quit swimming (and as a result, angering Akane further) and never went to college, where a she would have gotten a free ride on a sports scholarship. She became a simple OL, and had to deal with everything that she knows she was the cause of. That's part of the reason she goes to comfort Takayuki. Then, even though she knows she liked him for a long time, Mitsuki still feels awful for "stealing" her best friend's boyfriend. All this guilt is magnified when Haruka wakes up, and Mitsuki eventually breaks down.

[Yukimura]

Lol, no I haven't and after reading all that I don't think I would want to. It sounds like an even bigger pile of depression than KgNE. I think everybody in the story got bent over and reamed in the ass something fierce, which is why I found it so moving. When the shit hits the fan it really hits the fan, and it screws over everyone involved, much like a real life scenario would.

What I really liked about Mitsuki is that she's able to deal with it. She does show a penchant for distracting herself, but she is at least able to live a productive life even with all the guilt somewhere in her heart. Takayuki, I felt, could have just blamed Mitsuki for delaying him, turned his sorrow into anger, and used that to get him through the loss without turning into a Hikkikomori. In the end he would probably still be an empty shell of a person, but at least with anger at Mitsuki replacing sorrow and guilt he might have been able to function without her. Though I think this scenario could still lead to Takayuki and Mitsuki together after he realizes he can't really hold it against her that Haruka got hit by a car and sees how she is an empty shell of a person thanks to her suppression of all her feelings.

On a random note, do they ever mention anything about the person who hit Haruka? I hope that person at least paid for the medical bills or something.

[Ryllharu]

I don't think we watched the same series. (Didn't want to say it but after that, I have to)

Mitsuki couldn't deal with it at all. That's why she has that awful scene where she's about to get raped by some random guy after drinking so much, but she just starts laughing and crying at the same time outside a love hotel.

Then Shinji has sex with her after saving her. (ref. eps 10 and 11)

And Akane Maniax is a comedy. The main character of the animated version has no appearance in any of the games, is a parody of sports/mecha lead characters, and only serves to get Akane out of her depression. Haruka appears for all of 2 minutes, if that.

[Yukimura]

When it all started to go to crap and she was falling apart I already liked her. I started liking her from what I saw of her right after the time skip before Haruka woke up and in the flashbacks when she was helping Takayuki not die. She certainly had her shit more together than he did, though I suspect a good deal of that was "faking it till you make it". I liked the flash back Mitsuki, and so I could empathize more with the fucked up Mitsuki because she basically got abandoned by her primary support mechanism at the same time that she needed him the most due to the weight of all the shit catching up to her at the same time.

In a way I guess she got the same deal Haruka would have gotten if Takayuki never came back to play lie land with her.

[shinta|hikari]

Believe it or not, I actually to a certain extent agree with your sense of values. I also believe that ignorant people who cause harm and pain to others deserve to be held responsible for it even if they didnt know it was happening (the law calls this negligence). But that is only because if they had been smarter such pain would have been avoided, in a sense tilting the balance of accountability towards their shortcoming.

Haruka's case was clearly different as you stated, which makes it impossible for me to put blame on her. She wasnt ignorant, she was innocent. There's a big difference. She couldnt have known, and she couldnt have done anything to stop it, even if she had been a genius or a zen master.

Your argument is clearly bordering on blaming her very existence at that point as wrong and that she should be held accountable, not for her actions or choices, but for simply being herself. I do indeed agree that it is a matter of personal beliefs. I also think that there is no right or wrong in opinion, just a better or worse one.

[Kraco]

Well, I always thought the doctors were unrealistic anyway in the way they wanted to keep her in the dark. It was a textbook method that works only under perfect circumstances, which don't exist in the real world as was illustrated by this series. The patient could take it but the others couldn't. However, it wouldn't even have started without the others agreeing to it, which was pretty much a question of common sense not requiring special knowledge, making the doctors free of guilt.

In short, I don't think Haruka was to blame because she wasn't free to make her own decision as long as she was fed false information by the others. Kind of like if somebody secretly sabotages the brakes of your car during night and in the morning you cause a traffic accident because you couldn't stop. It could be said it's your car and you should know whether it works or not and if it doesn't, don't drive it. But at the same time your knowledge was that it works and it didn't only because somebody damaged it.

In this particular case the others themselves took out the brakes of Haruka's car and she then crashed into their cars... Who do you blame?

[shinta|hikari]

Yup, yup. Though the final analogy of Haruka and the car is kind of stretching it.

[Yukimura]

I also think that there is no right or wrong in opinion, just a better or worse one.

What is your criterion for judging one opinion better or worse than another?

Anyway, I do believe the state of her existence 'wrong', even though it was through no fault of her own that she was in such a state. If she had awakened and started spontaneously infecting people with a deadly airborne virus I would be in the front of the line advocating she be either isolated completely or killed to remove the threat she represented (unless of course she was in my family in which case I probably wouldn't behave rationally). This is a much more extreme example but to me the same logic applies.

I am however inclined to agree with Kraco now. It occurred to me that though she was around the age where personal responsibility kicks in, Haruka was still at the mental level of a minor the whole time she was being lied to. I had always thought of her as an adult who had a social imperative to bear responsibility for her actions. But it's easier to relieve her of that responsibility remembering that she was basically a teenager and thus her parents were the ones ultimately responsible for her.

They were essentially doomed to make a harmful decision either way though. Either hurt Haruka by telling her the truth before she was ready, or tear up their own lives and the lives of Akane and Takayuki to give Haruka the time she needed to recover.

[animus]

TBH, if I happened to have a wife/girlfriend I loved dearly and I either died or went into a coma for an extremely long time, I'd rather her be with my best friend. A friend that has been with you thick and thin, that has always been there for you and someone you trust will treat your lover equal or better than you can.

[shinta|hikari]

@Yuki - Criterion for judging the quality of an opinion is how well you can defend it, and if it makes sense to people who listen to it. If it doesnt stand up to criticism, then thats that.

Killing that virus spreading person isnt because she is at fault, but because you have no choice. It isnt because she is"wrong" but rather because you dont want to die that you choose to kill her.

EDIT: I realize I dont really care, thus the edit.

[Kraco]

A good point, Animus. I have to agree. It would suck to wake up and find out she's taken by another (anybody), but it'd also be quite unreasonable and uber selfish to expect a person to wait forever, and certainly would prove you aren't thinking what's best for that person but only what you want yourself. That's something only the villains of stories always do.