Did making the Naruto chars older hurt the series?

[Abdula]

I don't think there was any chance of Naruto breaking the seal. At that point the seal was still very strong and he wasn't yet able to even access the Kyuubi's chakra so again I
chalk that up to the series just beginning. Anyway this seal thing isn't very clear from what I saw when the third used it I don't know how it could've been used to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto although it was originally the fourth's technique so I think only he would know.

At one point it was said that the seal was in the process of breaking, then it was said that it wasn't because the seal was designed so that Naruto could gain access to the Kyuubi's chakra, then it was said that the seal was incorporating the kyuubi's chakra with Naruto's.

It was also said that Naruto could release the Kyuubi at anytime by just willing the seal to break which I don't think is true because we have seen him get desperate many times and literally beg the kyuubi for chakra yet the seal didn't break and designing the seal so that it would break just because the host got angry and wanted some extra chakra is foolish.

Now I know some idiot is going to say that the seal is breaking because how else would Naruto have been able to go one tail but it isn't. As we've seen from the very beginning Naruto has been able to access more and more of the kyuubi's chakra over time but that is simply due to his chakra capacity increasing as he grows older and uses the Kyuubi's chakra more not because the seal is breaking but because it is designed to allow Naruto to use the Kyuubi chakra.

What jounin level opponents has Naruo defeated?

The thing with Kiba and Lee is that they are far more skilled than Naruto is and they have more jutsu at their disposal. The only person Lee fought was Gaara and we all know he really stood no chance, and Kiba only fought the sound ninjas and none of the leaf ninjas involved in that mission really 'won' anything. The only two people anyone could make a case for is Choji and Neji and they by all rights should have been dead.

Yeah I don’t think I’m biased. Biased would mean that I’m prejudiced and predisposed to act in a particular way or have a certain opinion and I’m not. My opinions and conclusions are all the result of what I’ve seen and are supported by evidence therefore I’m not bias. “Naruto is a classic close combat idiot,” who is overemotional and only knows a total of three jutsu, whose only strategy is to charge at his opponents and he didn’t even graduate the academy. That is all fact.

[Jessper]

he didn’t even graduate the academy. That is all fact.

All fact but you know, that last point. He did graduate the academy, graduating the academy means you are a real ninja, and thus the headband. You mean that he didn't pass the final exam the FIRST time. He displayed he was able to do more than the exam asked for and so the teacher passed him.

If in college I fail a class the teacher still has the power to change that grade (it will almost never happen, don't get on my case about this) if the grade is changed then in fact I passed the class.

Now back to your "facts" gogo!

[Abdula]

Lol, why would you post something and then ask for people not to get on your case about it.

Fact is Naruto failed the exam therefore he failed to graduate. The exam required Naruto to perform the bunshin technique because he can perform the more difficult kage bunshin doesn't mean that he is able to perform bunshin. If the teacher changed your grade it doesn't change the fact that you failed. The truth is the truth it is not subjective.

I forgot to mention that Naruto failed the academy three times not just the FIRST time. He should be much older than he is then again there a lot of instances in Naruto where time didn't make any sense.

Like how Orochimaru was supposedly in Akatsuki when Itachi was there because he was supposed to have left Akatsuki tens years ago and at that point Itachi would've only been 10 so not only would he not have been in Akatsuki yet but he wouldn't have even killed the clan yet. I always wanted to know how the hell did Akatsuki ever have ten members the numbers just don't add up.

[Yukimura]

Jounin level opponents: Pre Skip, Shukakku and Kabuto(though at the cost of his life in Kabuto's case). Post Skip, clone Itachi and Diedara = Forced to retreat.

Failing the exam is objective, but the exam itself is subjective. It comes down to what you think is more important, practicality or 'the book'. If you only consider the practical use of the Clone jutsu, creating a diversion, the Shadow Clone jutsu is superior because shadow clones are real bodies that can affect and be affected by the world while regular clones can't (a perceptive person will notice that the wind doesn't move the hair of a clone, or that they don't leave foot prints). But if you want to go exactly by 'the book' then sure, he didn't deserve to graduate the academy because he didn't know a specific skill. The book doesn't care that he would never have a real world use for that skill because he knows another skill that perfectly replaces it.

As to his past failures all they prove is that in the past, he wasn't ready to graduate when he took the test in the past. All it takes is one time convincing the teachers that he deserves to pass and he does, that's how tests tend to work. Once he was recognized by Iruka as having sufficient skill to rate being a ninja he passed, I don't see what the number of times he tried and failed has to do with it. The whole point of testing is to make sure he was proficient enough to be a ninja, eventually, though it took 3-4 tries he knew enough to be proficient and thus he got his headband.

[Abdula]

I only mentioned the amount of times Naruto had failed because Jessper said that Naruto had only failed once. I was merely disputing whether or not Naruto failed the final exam or graduated because even though he did earn his headband and become a genin he did fail. Fact is fact.

Jounin level opponents: Pre Skip, Shukakku and Kabuto(though at the cost of his life in Kabuto's case). Post Skip, clone Itachi and Diedara = Forced to retreat.

This is far more interesting. I consider none of those to be "defeats."

Naruto didn't defeat Shukakku I didn't even consider it to be an opponent. Naruto defeated Gaara, he summons Gamabunta who then fought with Shukaku. Gamabunta knew that there was no way he could defeat Shukaku so he came up with a plan for them to awaken Gaara. I would hardly consider punching Gaara in the face to wake him up defeating Shukaku.

Naruto didn't defeat Kabuto that one is pretty much self-explanatory. Like I said before in my opinion Kabuto won that battle, simply because he got rasenganed doesn't mean he lost. Without Tsunade Naruto would've been dead and Kabuto had completely healed himself in a matter of minutes. Tsunade got slashed to pieces but I never heard anybody saying anything about her losing because she healed herself and then got back into the battle, Kabuto did the same thing albeit a bit slower while Naruto was lying there half dead. So plain and simple Kabuto won.

Itachi's clone I guess I could give you that one if not for the fact that is was just a clone whose intention was not to defeat them but to delay them. Naruto may have blasted him with the Rasengan but that battle was between Kakashi and Itachi and once again if it wasn't for Chiyo and Sakura Kishi alone knows what Itachi would've done to him in that genjutsu. Anyway my main point is that I don't consider Kakashi's clone holding Itachi's clone so that Naruto could Rasengan both of them to equate to Naruto defeating Itachi and apparently neither do you.

I don't think that there is much to say about Deidara. He didn’t even try to fight back against Naruto. Naruto only hit him with all but one punch. Deidara’s goal was to separate Naruto from Kakashi. Once again this battle was between Deidara and Kakashi. Without Kakashi, Naruto would’ve been defeated in about 2 minutes. Naruto himself was aware of just how useless he was during that entire battle. All his efforts being ineffective is what made him angry enough for the Kyuubi’s charka to begin taking control of him. Who knows what he would’ve done if Kakashi hadn’t suppressed the charka

I want Naruto to finally defeat a serious opponent one on one without any help. The one an only chance he got was against Sasuke and although he did put on an impressive show the outcome was inevitable.

[Yukimura]

Whatever, no matter what Naruto does you'll always think of some way in which to rationalize away any goodness on Naruto's part even if you have to make assumptions based on things there's no way to gauge. Since you are dead set on denying Naruto any credit for anything he's accomplished regardless of the circumstances there's no point in trying to convince you.

I would concede the last three are not sole Naruto victories, however the fact that you would deny Naruto credit for the actions of Gamabunta when he summoned Gamabunta to help him fight, (something the Third Hokage and Sannin all did) indicates to me that you are simply incapable or unwilling to accept that anything Naruto has done.

[Abdula]

I give Naruto a lot of credit, certainly more than you think. I don't deny him credit for the battle or summoning Gamabunta or defeating Gaara or any of the other stuff he has done. I just don't think that punching Gaara awake equates to him defeating Shukaku.

I criticize Naruto as much as I criticize all the other characters in the show, the show itself or life for that matter. I just never talk much about any of the other characters because no one else does. I remember criticizing Shinuze and Sakura awhile ago and criticizing just how difficult the rasengan was and the inconsistencies of the rules of Naruto a few pages back.
Remember that whole thing about people flying through rocks and stuff and their seemingly impervious bodies and clothing.

So while it may seem that I just plain hate Naruto that is untrue. My main problem with Naruto is that thus far he hasn't really been living up to his potential at least not in my opinion. It may seem that I'm heavily critical of him but I can assure you I am the same way with all the other characters in Naruto, its just never come up.

[Jessper]

Lol, why would you post something and then ask for people not to get on your case about it.

Fact is Naruto failed the exam therefore he failed to graduate. The exam required Naruto to perform the bunshin technique because he can perform the more difficult kage bunshin doesn't mean that he is able to perform bunshin. If the teacher changed your grade it doesn't change the fact that you failed. The truth is the truth it is not subjective.

I forgot to mention that Naruto failed the academy three times not just the FIRST time. He should be much older than he is then again there a lot of instances in Naruto where time didn't make any sense.

No it doesn't change the fact that he failed, but it does change the fact that he didn't graduate. He graduated the academy, that is all there is to it.

And I posted that because saying "no way it doesn't happen" just means you are ignorant, it is like someone watching an event then people saying it didn't happen to that person, the argument is useless.

He is a ninja, to be a ninja you must have graduated, Iruka passed Naruto and therefor he graduated, just not on that go.

EDIT: Reading the next post down also!~

I only mentioned the amount of times Naruto had failed because Jessper said that Naruto had only failed once. I was merely disputing whether or not Naruto failed the final exam or graduated because even though he did earn his headband and become a genin he did fail. Fact is fact.

I didn't say he only failed once (just that I thought you meant the first time, which I guess instead would be the third time) Also, failing the final exam and graduating are clearly not mutually exclusive events, if Naruto failed the exam 4 times he can still graduate (obviously since he has his headband).

Really I do wish Naruto was less useless but in the mean time I can watch for stuff like the Sasori fight, or the Sannin fight. It is probably silly to watch the show for the side characters but /meh

[Kraco]

Deidara’s goal was to separate Naruto from Kakashi. Once again this battle was between Deidara and Kakashi. Without Kakashi, Naruto would’ve been defeated in about 2 minutes.

Or Deidara might be dead, which is something Kakashi failed to accomplish. After all, we have no idea how good Naruto actually would be in a real fight to death match now post time skip. He might have needed to go kyuubi coated, but if he had, Deidara probably would have been dead meat or forced to retreat, because he wouldn't have had any nice seal tags to subdue Naruto.

Although it's hard to judge because the one armed Deidara had enabled the cheat mode giving him unlimited clay (that was still all the time running out according to him, yet never did), so who knows, he might have molded a nuclear bomb and defeated kyuubi Naruto that way if needed.

[Buffalobiian]

You can deny Naruto every defeating a Jounin. He skipped right past the Jounin target and tried straight for Sannin, and almost had him. I'd put that on par with the ability to defeat a Jounin, considering how many tried that feat and failed. The only other person I know who had done something similar was Tsunade, another Sannin.

It was also said that Naruto could release the Kyuubi at anytime by just willing the seal to break which I don't think is true because we have seen him get desperate many times and literally beg the kyuubi for chakra yet the seal didn't break and designing the seal so that it would break just because the host got angry and wanted some extra chakra is foolish.

Back when he first learned about using Kyuubi's Chakra, he couldn't get it unless his instincts kicked in when something was about to kill him. As he learns to master it's control, he releases more and more. At the beginning of Shippuuden, the fox was tempting him to release the seal, but Sasuke stopped him. That leads my to believe the fox knows Naruto can undo the seal.

[Abdula]

Really I do wish Naruto was less useless but in the mean time I can watch for stuff like the Sasori fight, or the Sannin fight. It is probably silly to watch the show for the side characters but /meh

For some reason when I read your posts something always makes me laugh. Its not silly to watch the show for the side characters, no show would be anything without the side characters. The secondary characters in Naruto also get a lot more attention and screen time that characters in other shows.

@ Kraco: As we've seen in the past long range fighters trump close range fighters and Deidara had previously defeated Gaara so I think he would have easily been able to defeat Naruto. I think you're forgetting that before Kakashi attacked Deidara with his MS and distracted him enough so that Naruto could get close to him neither one of them had any way of attacking or stopping Deidara

@ Buffalobiian: What sannin did Naruto almost defeat, I think you're imaging stuff. Anyway Naruto defeating a Sannin or jounin doesn't really stand for anything. Yes it would be a great accomplish meant but its not really saying much. Its not like bleach where defeating a captain would automatically make you a captain class opponent. Defeating a jounin in Naruto doesn't mean you would be able to defeat other jounins or stand any chance against them whatsoever. The fighting styles and techniques in Naruto are far more diverse and they affect the outcome of battle in Naruto much more.

The preview in the beginning of Naruto isn't much to go on. The fox was asking Naruto to use his power a la tailed Naruto. I just feel it would be stupid if Naruto was so easily able to completely undo the seal and release the Kyuubi since the fourth went through all the trouble of sealing it in the first place and because the seal also allows Naruto to use the Kyuubi chakra without releasing the Kyuubi. He just needs to learn to control it.

Anyway releasing and being able to use more and more of the Kyuubi chakra is not releasing the Kyuubi itself. If Naruto is able to go nine tails and have control over himself that is not releasing the Kyuubi, even if he can't control it and he runs around destroying everything that would just be him going berserker mode because he can't control the Kyuubi's power. Its not the same as releasing the full power competent Kyuubi.

The only thing that would qualify as Naruto releasing the Kyuubi would be if he learned a jutsu similar to the one Gaara used to release Shukaku but there hasn't been any evidence to indicate that Naruto may be able to use a jutsu like that because of the seal the fourth used. I was always under the impression that if the seal was released or broken that the Kyuubi was out plain and simple and that there would be no more Naruto.

[Jessper]

For some reason when I read your posts something always makes me laugh. Its not silly to watch the show for the side characters, no show would be anything without the side characters. The secondary characters in Naruto also get a lot more attention and screen time that characters in other shows.

I am not really sure if this is an insult or a compliment so we will go with the latter, THANKS! =P

[Kraco]

@ Kraco: As we've seen in the past long range fighters trump close range fighters and Deidara had previously defeated Gaara so I think he would have easily been able to defeat Naruto. I think you're forgetting that before Kakashi attacked Deidara with his MS and distracted him enough so that Naruto could get close to him neither one of them had any way of attacking or stopping Deidara

I think you missed the "plot device" text printed on Deidara's forehead during the Deidara vs. Kakashi & Naruto fight. Seriously, Kakashi used his jutsu a few times and got so exhausted, even without receiving any wounds, that he must sleep for a week in a hospital. Deidara fought Gaara, lost a fricking arm, flew over the desert, pumped god only knows how much chakra into the bijuu sucking stone statue for a couple of days, without rest, and then proceeded to fight against Kakashi and Naruto, plus the whole Gai team. It might be just me but this just doesn't compute.

I don't know what purpose the whole Deidara chase served in the end, but I certainly wouldn't judge Naruto's strength based on it.

[Abdula]

That just shows you how strong Akatsuki members are thats why I keep saying that against them Naruto's amount of chakra isn't anything special. What plot device did you forget that Kisame and Itachi had projections of themselves extracting the bijuu from Gaara while their bodies were somewhere else and they still had copies of themselves fighting Gai's and Kakashi's teams.

Akatsuki members are just really strong, plus Kakashi has low chakra capacity. That is why he has so much trouble using the sharingan and why he can't use raikiri much he just doesn't have the chakra.

The purpose was to try and get hot-headed Naruto away from Kakashi so he could attempt to capture him. I'm not using it to judge Naruto's strength its just shows that against a long range fighter like Deidara, naruto doesn't even have anyway to attack him. It has nothing to do with strength it just shows that Naruto would not be able to fight someone like deidara, thats why I said long range fighters trump close range fighters.

[DarthEnderX]

I like how you've said "it was clearly stated at some point, but I don't remember when exactly" like 5 times now, and all for things that have never been clearly stated.


Did Animeniax make a new account called Abdula?

[Abdula]

Give me specific examples and then I'll tell you when it happened. As a matter of fact if it bothers you that much find it out yourself.

Did Animeniax make a new account called Abdula?

You know honestly, I've found myself thinking that exact same thing on a number of occasions but I have no intention of becoming what Animeniax once was or I guess I should say still is.

[Kraco]

What plot device did you forget that Kisame and Itachi had projections of themselves extracting the bijuu from Gaara while their bodies were somewhere else and they still had copies of themselves fighting Gai's and Kakashi's teams.

Kisame and Itachi's copies were using the bodies of some hapless fools. They burned those bodies out to the death, so I doubt they used very much of Kisame and Itachi's own chakra. Besides, didn't Kisame and Itachi leave Konoha at one point because Itachi was stretching his strength already when fighting Kakashi & Co? Itachi isn't some uber pool of chakra like Deidara The Armless Ninja seems to be. Although considering Deidara has unlimited pool of explosive clay, I guess generating chakra out of nowhere is one of his lesser skills.

Well, I'm outta this debate anyway. That arc was so ridiculous in general I feel like I'm losing IQ just by trying to remember its "finer" details.

[Abdula]

Actually it was expressly stated that both Kisame and Itachi had to give 30% of their chakra to their clones for the jutsu to work. They weren't using the chakra of the host or their abilties, I was under the impression that the bodies were just a physical host that was to be transformer into the likeness of the user similar to what Oro did with sound genin when he brought back the Hokages. That jutsu required the life of the sacrifices and I assume this one did as well so the hosts were already dead.

Itachi actually is some uber pool of chakra all the Akatsuki are.

[Buffalobiian]

@ Buffalobiian: What sannin did Naruto almost defeat, I think you're imaging stuff. Anyway Naruto defeating a Sannin or jounin doesn't really stand for anything. Yes it would be a great accomplish meant but its not really saying much. Its not like bleach where defeating a captain would automatically make you a captain class opponent. Defeating a jounin in Naruto doesn't mean you would be able to defeat other jounins or stand any chance against them whatsoever. The fighting styles and techniques in Naruto are far more diverse and they affect the outcome of battle in Naruto much more.

Where have you been these last two weeks? Specifically, where have you been when Jiraiya lifted his shirt and said Naruto almost killed him?? Agreeing with you that techniques matter more than actual rank. After all, Naruto is a genin. I can almost garuntee he'll beat all those new grads from the academy. But do you really think the skills he used against Jiraiya wouldn't mean a thing at all? I can't imagine some guy going "Oh, I defeated Orochimaru the other day." and his opponent: "Pff, your techniques are just his weakness, that's all. You're no match for me."

[DarthEnderX]

Give me specific examples and then I'll tell you when it happened. As a matter of fact if it bothers you that much find it out yourself.

Alright, here:

The shadow clone technique is taught to all ninjas when they become Jounin. That was clearly stated at some point but I can't remember when.

That has never, *ever* been stated anywhere in the show, and you've used that "fact" to support your argument multiple times now. And no, *I'm* not going to find it for you because, A. Its not for other people to support your arguments and B. I can't anyway, because you made it up.

If you can find it, I owe you an apology.

Its funny, because I actually agree with you. Naruto is a moron who doesn't win 90% of his fights. He's only really beat Neji and Kiba and one of those is was through slapstick comedy. All his other fights he either flat out loses like against Sasuke, or he fights to mutual elimitation like Kabuto. Or if anyone thinks that his fight against Gaara wasn't a draw(where he couldn't even crawl anymore at the end) they're crazy. Or someone else has to finish his fight for him, like Haku or Diedera.

Which makes it doubly annoying that you feel the need to make up things to support your arguments because in this case, the evidence is there already without you pulling shit out of your ass.