Ebisu and Tsunade also used the Shadow Clone technique and the Chunnin exam examiners recognized it (and were impressed that Naruto could use it). Ever since then I've been under the impression it is less a banned technique and more of a 'for high level ninja's who know what they're doing only' technique. If they taught it as an academy skill stupid kids would probably try to use them like Naruto does and drain their chakra to nothing very quickly.
Yeah, clearly the Shadow Clone Jutsu was retconned from a "forbidden technique" to a "technique that only skilled ninja know" after the first episode.
<@Terra> he told me this, "man actually meeting terra is so fucking big", and he started crying. Then he bought me hot dogs
The shadow clone technique is taught to all ninjas when they become Jounin. That was clearly stated at some point but I can't remember when. Most people wouldn't use the technique because it supposedly divides up all of the user's chakra among the clones, like when Naruto used it against Neji.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
How did this become a discussion about rasengan and shadow clones? Those topics have nothing to do with the age of the characters and how they affect how you feel about the show. Get back on topic, people.
I stopped watching Naruto Shippuuden at episode 19, because it lost all of its humor and the characters were so unlikeable, since they hadn't changed at all in 3 (2.5) years.
“For God will not permit that we shall know what is to come... those who by some sorcery or by some dream might come to pierce the veil that lies so darkly over all that is before them may serve by just that vision to cause that God should wrench the world from its heading and set it upon another course altogether and then where stands the sorcerer? Where the dreamer and his dream?”
So I take it that you haven't watched any of the recent episodes, because if you haven't you should for those very reasons.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
What I really don't like about the series as a whole is that they keep introducing new characters instead of developing existing characters. I guess all long running shounen anime are that way, but it's such a waste.
“For God will not permit that we shall know what is to come... those who by some sorcery or by some dream might come to pierce the veil that lies so darkly over all that is before them may serve by just that vision to cause that God should wrench the world from its heading and set it upon another course altogether and then where stands the sorcerer? Where the dreamer and his dream?”
I don't personally think the characters being older is hurting the anime. Personally i think it has given the show a more mature vibe, which i like. The problem as i see it is this: At the beginning of the original "Naruto" he was pretty much just useless and annoying, but we got to watch him grow as a ninja and by the end he had become a fitting rival for Sasuke. Now Shippuuden has started, and it's like we're going to have to watch him go from loud suckbag to kick ass all over again. It's just kind of rediculous and it puts me off quite a bit. Sakura spends 3 years training with Sunade and comes out vastly improved and a much cooler character, but Naruto spends all that time with Jiraiya and thus far it seems he has almost nothing to show for it. Well except for a bigger version of his Rasengan. Whats killing Shippuuden for me is that it seems like Naruto is almost starting over in terms of skill, instead of showing any improvement from pre-timeskip. Hopefully this new arc will change that.
Bravo. I couldn't have said it better.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Ok so someone neg reped me and wrote a list of "skills" most of which i don't recognize the names of. Of the things he listed, i think the Shuriken and the Rasengan are the only ones we've seen thus far. He brought up the "Fox Cloak" as well, but i don't consider what amounts to a berserker state where he's completely out of control of himself, to the point of attacking his friends, to be an actual skill.
In any case i suppose i should clarify my meaning. When i refer to "Skill" i don't mean simply acquiring techniques. Example: Pre-time skip Sakura didn't just lack techniques. She was scared, unconfident, over reliant on others, and just plain had no fighting spirit/sense. All those things made her a huge liability. As we've seen post time skip after 2.5 years of training with Sunade she has overcome those intangible flaws.
Pre-Time skip Naruto was reckless, over emotional, and like Sakura lacked a lot of basic fighting sense. These things were often liabilities as well. Post-Time skip it appears he's overcome none of that. Yeah they showed what i thought would be some promising things in the Kakashi battle at the beginning of the series, but when it really mattered all his flaws were still there. As soon as he saw Gaara he completely lost his head (over emotional) and charged after Deidara on his own (reckless). Then he lost his cool beating on Deidara and went into berserker "Fox Cloak" mode and tried to kill Kakashi (over emotional and reckless). I'm not saying i wanted Naruto to be the cold calculating fighter Sasuke is, but i did hope that 2.5 years training with one of the Legendary Sanin might have afforded him some of the same self-control and intangible fighting assets Sakura managed to aquire.
Ignore the closed-minded, idiotic naruto fanboys. Naruto at this point hasn't grown much, his battle strategy, use of jutsu and his ability to assess his opponent’s strengths and weaknesses are still the same. So while he may have more charka/stamina now and he has a more powerful rasengan nothing else has changed. I suppose his lack of growth is most likely due to Jiraiya's training method with him. Naruto is not a good student and Jiraiya doesn't seem to have much patience with him so if his training with Jiraiya for the last 2.5 years was anything like when Jiraiya taught him the rasengan there would have been very little actual hands on training.
If Naruto had grown that much his character would have changed a lot which is not something I think Kishi wants to do at this point. Besides if Naruto had suddenly become so strong the battles he has been in would've certainly had different outcomes and the show itself would’ve had a different feel. Naruto is supposed to be the inexperienced, overemotional underdog who blindly rushes into things. That is what most shonen protagonists are.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
I thought it was considered 'forbidden' because it was dangerous to unskilled users, since their chakra is divided equally between the bodies. There's no reason not to use it if you have the chakra to make it worthwhile.Originally Posted by XanBcoo
Also note that Naruto hasn't perfected it, and probably shouldn't be using it at all if it weren't for his monster chakra. Consider that Sarutobi's kage bunshins could take clean hits without dissolving, whereas Naruto's can't. I'm guessing the chakra "stored" in that kage bunshin just disappears.
And in support of the first point, there are only been 3 known kage bunshin users. Naruto, Kakashi, and Sarutobi. I'd expect the fourth Hokage had the chakra to use. Jiraiya too. All these guys have/had ridiculous amounts of chakra.
Everybody else seems to settle for things like mud and water clones.
Edit: Somebody mentioned Ebisu and Tsunade using it. I don't remember Tsunade, but I'll concede Ebisu did. And I guess he's "just" a "Special Jounin", not a real Jounin.
Last edited by poopdeville; Thu, 11-29-2007 at 10:17 PM.
Tsunade did it but that was a filler episode, where she was chasing Naruto around Konoha.
"They call it 'The American Dream' because you have to be asleep to believe it" - George Carlin
Oh would you people stop with this ridiculous discourse.
The shadow clone technique:
1. Is not forbidden
2. Any jounin level ninja can use it
3. Most people don’t use it because it wastes charka
4. Naruto himself doesn’t utilize the shadow clones properly just like with everything else he does.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
The Kage Bunshin is forbidden, but the real danger comes with the Taju Kage Bunshin, which is the mass replication one. Also, I don't think the other characters are actually doing Kage Bunshin. And if they are, you also have to ask youself, when did the technique become forbidden? So that some of the older characters know it, doesn't make it any less of a forbidden technique.
That aside, having older characters doesn't hurt the series. "It's annoying how he acts like a dumb kid", the thing is that he's still a kid. He isn't "grown-up" as some have made him out to be.
Last edited by Munsu; Fri, 11-30-2007 at 03:51 PM.
^^ yeah no kidding... He's like 15 or 16 right now. That's still pretty much a kid.
Like I've said, the older chars aren't hurting the show. It's the animation and the lame pathetic dialogue "let's get stronger!" that ruin the show.
I don't know if the technique is forbidden because it was said that if Naruto was to read that scroll that he would somehow be able to release the Kyuubi blah, blah, blah and we know that wasn't true.
Also the first few episode/chapters in the series were absolute crap, I don't think Kishi knew back then exactly what direction he wanted the whole Naruto/Kyuubi angle to go in. If the scroll and what was in it is such a big deal I would think that the third would have made more of a fuss about it so I just chalk all that up to the series just starting off.
The shadow clone technique can't be forbidden because, forbidden techniques have a tremendous risk to the user and although using it would quickly use up the majority of your chakra unlike chidori it doesn't seem to have much risk to your life force. All one needs to know to be able to use the shadow clone tecnhnique is one seal, I think a forbidden technique would be more difficult to perform than that and secondly it was said that the technique is taught to all jounins so if the technique is forbidden they wouldn't still be teaching it.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
He seemed to be doing a pretty good job with his jutsus since the start of shippuuden.
You are just too ridiculously biased against Naruto.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
The problem is that Naruto didn't read the scroll, he merely read the first jutsu he saw in there.
I'm not biased, I'm fair. I agree with you that he has been using the shadow clones better since shippuden started the thing is before then the shadow clones were for the most part just a weapon of mass distraction albeit a good one.
Besides I doubt a justu like shadow clones would simply just be used to distract and enemy or provide the extra hands he needs to use the rasengan. Kisame and Zabuza utilized their water clones well and we all saw what the third did with his, although that is an unfair comparison but he was the one that was always going on about wanting to be hokage.
I suppose Naruto's misuse of the shadow clones may be a result of his lack of supplemental jutsu but that is a horrible excuse and really would only make him a failure of a ninja. Jiraiya did tell him to not conserve chakra so properly utilizing the clone is probably far from his mind but against Akatsuki level opponents on has to be more cautious. He can't just rely on rasengans and a large number of shadow clones to win all his battles. I would think that properly utilizing a few clones would be better than trying to defeat them with just sheer numbers especially because ninjas are supposed to be elite and by now everyone knows about his rasengan.
Still if all he needed to unseal the Kyuubi was a scroll that a genin, wait he didn't even graduate the academy when that happened so if all he needed to release the Kyuubi was a scroll that an academy level ninja was able to steal, read and decipher then what the hell did the fourth waste his life for.
Wait so not only is Naruto still a genin but he didn't even graduate the academy Iruka just gave him a pass.
Oh and the shadow clone technique isn't forbidden, forbidden means that the ninja that uses the jutsu would be putting his life at risk or that the jutsu requires the sacrifice of a life and there would be some kind of punishment if one was a known user of the technique. The curse seal, Oro's reincarnation jutsu, Chiyo's jutsu and Sasori's human puppet jutsu are perfect examples.
Last edited by Abdula; Sat, 12-01-2007 at 07:57 PM.
Dreaming impossible dreams.
Sapphire is awesome!
Lol I can't believe you don't think you're biased. But it's an unprovable theory so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Anyway, I think you're right about it not being forbidden. Back in episode 1 when Naruto reads the name of the first jutsu in the Scroll of Sealing he says Taju Kage Buunshin no Jutsu, not Kage Buunshin no Jutsu. It's a safe bet that if the scroll described how to perform Taju Kage Buunshin it probably went into some detail about how Kage Buunshin worked as well, which is how Naruto learned both. When Iruka saw the technique he recognized it and called it Kage Buunshin no Jutsu and referred to it as a "high level technique" indicating that he recognized and was familiar with it. I would be very surprised if a Forbbiden technique would be common knowledge for a chuunin middle school teacher.
And I don't think being dangerous is a concrete prerequisite for a jutsu to be forbidden, it's more of a commonly occurring theme in jutsu's that have been forbidden. If a Kage feels a jutsu shouldn't be used, then it is forbidden, and a good reason to not want a jutsu to be used would be that it is too dangerous to the user or it is too costly and not worth it (Edo Tensei).
As to the scroll breaking the seal, I don't think it was having the scroll that was going to allow Naruto o break the seal it was his mental state. The Hokage was afraid of what would happen if the Kyuubi was released through Naruto's anger and had possession of the scroll to boot. We've seen that the Kyuubi is an intelligent being and if a giant frog and demon raccoon can use jutsu why not a 9-tailed demon fox?
As to Naruto's use of clones, he has his own way of doing things and it's worked for him so far. Naruto isn't a strategic thinker, it's just not in his nature, yet he's proven himself effective in taking out opponents in the past with clever, but childish tactics and sheer determination. If you think about it neither Lee nor Kiba are particularly strategic either, but they both do well when the chips are down. Naruto has a better battle record than both of them, defeating jounin level opponents left and right while we've only see Lee win a battle against himself and Kiba has never won a battle at all.
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