Did making the Naruto chars older hurt the series?

[Assertn]

You should check again because I can give you numerous examples of people sent flying through rocks and trees and even walls without much consequence. The rules of what can and can't be done in Naruto were never fully established and even those that were are subject to change at will.

Can you list them? I can't actually think of a time when any characters were physically sent through rocks and trees without much consequence.

Well, the only exceptions (if you can even call them that) that I can think of, are chouji's pill-powered meat tank through the rock wall and Kimimaro's bone spear through Gaara's hardened sand.

[Abdula]

Sure I could list them but the fact that I didn't means I have no intention to. There are a few I can remember but actually looking for references in the manga and or anime is not something I intend to do right now, maybe later.

[Yukimura]

You are right Abdula, I forgot that Naruto characters bodies are, empirically speaking, harder than stone. Because of the magically high resistance to physical damage possessed by seemingly all ninja the assertion that the Rasengan doesn't do much damage does have merit, but then again, Kabuto, even with both ninja toughness and his super healing, was incapacitated by the Rasengan (for all of the maybe 10 minutes that the Sannin fought).

Some Examples (My Job sure is boring some days):

Sandaime vs Shodaime & Nidaime:
Sandaime uses Katon: Karyuu Endan against both and they are completely engulfed in the flames, within the inferno they showed token signs that the flame bothered them and then Nidaime calmly cast a jutsu to counter the flames.

Shodaime runs at Sandainme, who shoots fire bullets at him. Said bullets are blocked by Shodaime's bare hands (or his magic aura/ AT field).

Naruto vs Kabuto:
Kabuto's body deeply deforms the rock behind him when he hits it after taking the fist Rasengan.

Sannin Battle:
Orochimaru: hit by multiple Super Strength Tsunade punches that can shatter stone walls, not particularly happy about it but not incapacitated by them either.

Chouji punches Jiroubu/Jidanbou/Fat Sound Four guy with all his strength, Jidanbou's body displaces the ground around him.

Naruto vs Sasuke:
Naruto Takes Either a Katon Gokakyuu no Jutsu or a Katon: Ryuuka no Jutsu right to the face and is fine afterwards.

Naruto+Kyuubi enhanced speed/strength vs Sasuke No Curse Seal:
Naruto throws Sasuke through into a wall hard enough to displace the stone in the wall

Naruto Creates a clone whip and slams Sasuke into a cliff, Sasuke's body displaces the cliff side.

Naruto then takes a point blank Katon: Ryuuka no Jutsu and is only momentarily stunned but suffers no apparent fire damage to his person or even his clothes.

Naruto is then thrown off a cliff at least 10 stories high and lands on his head with Sasuke's weight added to his own, the rock under his head is damaged but his head and neck maintain their positions perfectly.

Naruto in 1 tailed Kyuubi Mode vs Sasuke Curse Seal Level 1: Naruto punches Sasuke into a wall destroying a large section of the wall behind him.

[Abdula]

One of my favorites was during the Sasuke vs Naruto battle at the valley of end when Sasuke used that wire he always does to tie Naruto to a rock and the wire cut straight through the rock itself but Naruto's skin and clothes were completely immune to any damage.

Thats why I said the rules of Naruto are subject to change at will because Kishimoto changes the rules of his world whenever he deems it convenient.

[Kraco]

However, saying the rules are subject to change depending on how many squirrels Kishimoto counted in the park during his evening stroll also means rasengan could be extremely efficient as well if needed!

So, in the end it's plus minus zero. But somehow I tend to think we are more likely to see people avoiding the effect than just absorbing it.

[Assertn]

Well ok, but in all honesty....

Sandaime's flame was blocked by Nidaime's water shield. Didn't engulf them.
Anything dealing with the 1st and 2nd Hokages should not count anyway, because it was quite clearly revealed that in the zombie form they were physically immortal.

Pretty much every scene mentioned in reference to Naruto vs Sasuke was fabricated by the Anime studio, and therefore was in no way part of Kishimoto's vision.

Chouji's punch on Jiroubou kills Jiroubou.

I'll give you the Kabuto and Oro scenes, however I think they've justified those characters well enough to make it at least plausible.

[Abdula]

Choji's punch did kill Jiroubou but it should have made a huge hole in his chest rather than leave a crater in the ground.

[Yukimura]

If we're going to keep bringing the manga up and ignoring anything from the anime that wasn't in or conflicts with the the manga why don't we just move this all over to the manga thread?

In the anime (which we're supposed to be talking about) the flames do engulf the zombie-kage's but don't seem to do anything to them, then a few seconds later, while surrounded by flames Nidaime does the Water Wall technique and blocks further flames from reaching them. But as you mentioned, they were zombies, so it doesn't really matter that they couldn't be harmed by them.

In the anime (which we're supposed to be talking about) bodies often slam through solid rock without taking significant or incapacitating damage themselves, these are facts of the anime regardless of how things played out in the manga.

[RyougaZell]

More than ignoring the anime-only events... I think Assertn was trying to say that such examples are not Kishimoto's faults, like Abdula is pointing at.

[Abdula]

I never said anything was Kishimoto's fault, I was just saying its creative freedom but whether you like it or not and whether it is in the anime or not it is still Kishimoto's creation. Most of those things did occur in the manga as well, including the entire Sasuke Retrieval arc.

[Animeniax]

The first time we saw Jiraiya use rasengan on that petty criminal in town, the guy didn't die or seem that bad off, but probably because it was meant to be a comical situation.

[Abdula]

Yeah, the normal Rasengan is pretty lame. I always wanted to know why only JIraiya, The Fourth and Naruto could use the tecnique because that has never been explained to my satisfaction. Creating a large amount of chakra and compressing it into a self sustaining ball of energy can't possibly be more difficult that generating fire or lightning not to mention genjutsu. I mean it can't possibly be that difficult if Naruto can do it, I always thought it had something to do with the amount of chakra but then it was stated that the Rasengan uses less chakra when compared to Chidori which wasn't surprising but only further confused me as to why other people can't use Rasengan.


-Off topic, I would love to meet the craven vermin who choose to hide behind the anonymity of this forum's rep system.

[XanBcoo]

Coming a bit late into the argument here, but:

I actually agree with Ani about Naruto being able to throw Rasengan's around at will.

Does anyone else think that Projectile Rasengans would be a pretty awesome development?

I mean, if we can't rely on Kishimoto to think up anything besides more powerful versions of old techinques, then that's definitely something I'd love to see. Naruto chucking a Rasengan from each hand.

I mean it can't possibly be that difficult if Naruto can do it, I always thought it had something to do with the amount of chakra but then it was stated that the Rasengan uses less chakra when compared to Chidori which wasn't surprising but only further confused me as to why other people can't use Rasengan.

It's all about Chakra control. Creating jutsu like the Gokakyu no Jutsu are relatively more easy, I assume, because they use the hand seals as a medium. Kind of like simply chanting to cast a spell. The Rasengan just requires a lot more of the user. I'm surprised Neji hasn't taken the time to learn it. It should be pretty easy for a guy like him.

[Abdula]

But Naruto was the worst at chakra control and he still is so that one doesn't make sense either.

[Yukimura]

@Animaniax: The rasengan seems to be a pretty flexible skill since the user controls the amount of chakra comprising it as well as the amount of spin. If you make one that's not that strong and not spinning too rapidly then it's not going to do as much damage as if you fill it with as much power as possible and make it spin like mad.

@Abdula: Naruto is the underdog hero so they make it out that h's terribleat everything when in reality he's just not applying himself to his full potential. Besides nearly ALL of Naruto's training has revolved around chakra control of some form. When you only focus on one thing eventually you'll get good at it.

As to the difficulty I believe Jiraiya mentioned that it was an A rank technique because of the difficulty of the component steps. Getting your chakra into your hand is pretty straight forward, but getting it to come out of your actual body and then making it spin doesn't seem like something that would be so easy. And then once you can get some out and spinning you have to be able to handle pumping out enough to shatter a rubber ball. The only other time we've seen raw chakra do anything close is Neji's Kaiten. Then the third step requires intense concentration and to contain and control all the power and rotation and that doesn't seem like something just anyone could do without intense focus and training on just controlling one's chakra (Naruto who only trains for chakra control has to create a whole separate consciousness to manage it). Of all the ninja we've seen the only one who's displayed a high level of of direct chakra control is Neji so I would expect him to have little trouble learning it but none of the others seem good enough with direct chakra control to pull it off.

Also the Rasengan doesn't utilize hand seals, I've always viewed hand seals as a sort of short cut for the mental effort needed to take chakra and do stuff with it. When Sasuke learned the Fireball Technique he was able to turn his chakra into fire with seemingly no experience with fire chakra just by directing chakra to his chest and performing the seals. It must still take some effort but I think the seals are meant to do a good portion of the work in making a jutsu do what it's supposed to, be it turn chakra into fire or lightning or a shadow. The fact that the Rasengan is as potent as it is but has to be fully controlled by the users mind instead of seals is another thing that makes it more advanced.

[XanBcoo]

But Naruto was the worst at chakra control and he still is so that one doesn't make sense either.

Naruto is the main character. He can do anything by trying hard enough, it's as simple as that.

The Rasengan lies in precise Chakra control. That was clearly explained when he learned it.

[Abdula]

Neji is obviously really good at chakra but so was Sakura and most medical ninja including Tsunade, yet Tsunade herself said that only JIraiya and the Fourth could perform the jutsu when she met Naruto.

In terms of concentration it couldn't be more difficult than trying to control lightning as with the chidori, or genjutsu which requires the user to not only have complete control over their own chakra but their opponents as well..

Yeah, I know the handseals were a shortcut but I seem to remember both Kakashi and Sasuke using the chidori without forming seals.

Naruto is the main character. He can do anything by trying hard enough, it's as simple as that.

I suppose we could just all go with that and forget this whole discussion but where is the fun in that. Projectile Rasengans will never happen that goes against the entire principal of the rasengan and the need for direct contact. Besides if you did that then Naruto really wouldn’t have to do anything now would he.

[XanBcoo]

Neji is obviously really good at chakra but so was Sakura and most medical ninja including Tsunade, yet Tsunade herself said that only JIraiya and the Fourth could perform the jutsu when she met Naruto.

First, I think in that context she meant "Jiraiya and the Fourth are currently the only ninja who have used that technique". She didn't say that she couldn't, but rather implied that she didn't. I think it's logical to assume that if she tried hard enough, she definitely could use it to some extent. Maybe she just doesn't want to. It's not her style. There's nothing about Tsunade that tells us she can't use her Chakra to near perfection.

In terms of concentration it couldn't be more difficult than trying to control lightning as with the chidori, or genjutsu which requires the user to not only have complete control over their own chakra but their opponents as well...

It's not lightening. Kakashi described Chidori as "body activation". Sasuke just forces a shit ton of Chakra into his arm and lets it burn haphazardly. The Rasengan is "Chidori Plus" because it directs the Chakra into a spiral-ball and compacts it without using handseals.

As an aside, I was really annoyed when I found out that Sakura and Tsunade's super strength were merely Chakra concentration. Basically a weakened form of Chidori, minus the Chakra burning. But I guess that tells us that there are obviously different flavors of "chakra control".

Yeah, I know the handseals were a shortcut but I seem to remember both Kakashi and Sasuke using the chidori without forming seals.

The Chidori uses handseals. Every time.

As for projectile Rasengans, I was only being half-serious. I'd love to see it, but you're right that it wouldn't work.

[Abdula]

I got the impression that she thought it was impossible not just improbable.

I thought that body activation, was so that he could simply generate the amount of chakra required for the technique. I don't think holding a ball of chakra is so difficult especially since once it is completed it is self sustaining, I can't imagine someone holding a ball of lightning which of course would constantly consume chakra not to mention how difficult it must be to turn chakra into lightning.

Anyway I'll leave this discussion alone until the anime progresses a bit.

[XanBcoo]

I don't think holding a ball of chakra is so difficult especially since once it is completed it is self sustaining, I can't imagine someone holding a ball of lightning which of course would constantly consume chakra not to mention how difficult it must be to turn chakra into lightning.

I'm going to ignore the fact that you ignored my earlier response explaining the difference between Chidori and Rasengan and just ask you: Why do you keep saying the Chidori "is" lightning?

It's not....