Gundam 00 Episode 04

[Death13a]

Union couldn't attack Gundam because the only way is to get visual on Gundams (NO radar, heat(no exhaust) or sound(no engines) and maybe infared going to work to detect them). So how are you suppose to defend when you are ordered to attack country and you have no idea from where Gundams will come and who they will attack? And when you figure out who they are attacking, you are died. Taribia's forces were counting on Gundams for them to fight. Without Gundams they are just waiting for bombardment from ships to be recycled to local background.

[Yukimura]

For the Tarabian's 1) they wouldn't have had working communications thanks to the G-Particle interference and 2) They were probably expecting CB to come and help them and thus shocked when the Gundams opened fire.

The Union's actions seem like they could be blamed on smart budget management as much as unrealistic writing. It's cheaper to animate a Gundam flying past a bunch of static ships or shooting at immobile Tarabian troops than to animate a full scale three sided battle. Seeing the Union ships try and fight them on the way in would have been completely worthless to the story (other than adding realism) so I don't think it was that big a deal for them to just not have them do anything. I'd rather have awkward inactivity during unimportant battles than terrible animation quality in the final episodes because they wasted money on a big navel battle that was insignificant to the overall story.

[Kraco]

Union couldn't attack Gundam because the only way is to get visual on Gundams (NO radar, heat(no exhaust) or sound(no engines) and maybe infared going to work to detect them).

Well, visual alone would be plenty and enough. Even today you could build a homing system relying on the visible area of electromagnetism. And radar would work just fine from such a short distance. And it's not like the Gundams even look particularly radar deflective, but I suppose they could be from longer distances, but there should be no troubles from shorter distances. The fact they are perfectly visible tells they don't have any uber electromagnetic dispersion capabilities.

They didn't move an inch when the gundams appeared and that seems weird to me. At least take some kind of Defensive position if they noticed the gundams early like you said they should have done.

There aren't anything a ship could do when a high speed aerial vehicle suddenly flies over, aside from using AA fire and countermeasures. Ships are slow things. They can't be moved fast enough into any defensive positions (and what would those even be, anyway?). A ship of that size is practically a stationary target for a Gundam.

Well, other than that, the ships should theoretically be quite resistent. The shield the Gundams use can take plenty of hits, yet they are light enough to be carried by a flying vehicle. So, it's more than reasonable to assume the ships are extemely tough because they don't need to fly. A ship is a thing that can economically carry huge loads. So, the Gundam would have been hard pressed to sink even one ship before all the others would have opened fire and taken the Gundam out of the sky. So, I deem it wasn't a bad gamble for the Americans.

[Yukimura]

Kraco are you on crack today or something? Visual guidance is not generally used for a good reason...it's extremely easy to fool. As to radar working, the first episode showed pretty clearly that radar would NOT pick up a Gundam (Exia was spotted visually by one of the people in the tower at the AEU base and the radar operator commented that his scope showed nothing). And in ep 04 the Exia was again picked up visually by some guy on the bridge and blew by faster than anyone on the bridge could even react.

And just because you can see something in the visual band doesn't mean it will appear on radar at all. Radio frequency EM radiation and visible frequency EM radiation are not the same and don't always behave same way in similar environments. The F-22 is plainly visible to the naked eye but has the radar cross section of a pigeon.

As to the ship armor. Gundam beam weapons have always been able to cut through metal like it was tissue paper. If Exia had started shooting at those ships with it's beam cannon the ships would probably have had enormous holes in them and immediately started to sink.

[masamuneehs]

some good points, but there's still no reason that they can't use satelites to track the Gundams movement. and, although you'd need to extend your forces in a large radius to counter the Gundams' speed, having visual scouts is the only way I can imagine them having any chance of preparing for them...

But, to move on to other matters, I'm interested in what people think about that brown haired woman with glasses who appeared alongside the Middle Eastern Queen (Setsuna's future love interest). She reeks of bad guy...

Also, seems that Tairibia = Venezuela.

[Yukimura]

Megane-chan is currently my favorite character (Sorry Graham, you're too crazy). I have high hopes that she will stop the Princess from fully maturing into Relena 2. She reminds me of Noien, but as a political specialist instead of a combat specialist.

[Buffalobiian]

So, the Gundam would have been hard pressed to sink even one ship before all the others would have opened fire and taken the Gundam out of the sky. So, I deem it wasn't a bad gamble for the Americans.

Dynames (Lockon) could probably take out every single bridge in moments.

some good points, but there's still no reason that they can't use satelites to track the Gundams movement. and, although you'd need to extend your forces in a large radius to counter the Gundams' speed, having visual scouts is the only way I can imagine them having any chance of preparing for them...

Gundams can swim, so satellite tracking would be easily lost. You can track the gundams again after another operation, but that's assuming CB doesn't take out the satellites first. I can't imagine how CB will justify their actions though.

[Kraco]

Kraco are you on crack today or something?

Unfortunately my crack isn't quite as potent as yours, though.

Visual guidance is not generally used for a good reason...it's extremely easy to fool.

Somehow it seems to me your forget we are talking about a situation far into the future. And one Gundam flying in the empty sky doesn't quite sound like an error prone situation. Who knows what countermeasures the Gundams have but that hardly prevents from trying, does it? Or perhaps you belong to the people who think it's better to just sit still and accept death if you only have 10% chances of surviving...

As to radar working, the first episode showed pretty clearly that radar would NOT pick up a Gundam (Exia was spotted visually by one of the people in the tower at the AEU base and the radar operator commented that his scope showed nothing).

There was a bloody scene in the middle of this episode where they were tracking three Gundams and it looks pretty much like screen presenting radar information (or intel from other accurate means - what's the difference, anyway).

The F-22 is plainly visible to the naked eye but has the radar cross section of a pigeon.

And what's the problem about shooting down a pigeon, eh? You don't need more than that.

As to the ship armor. Gundam beam weapons have always been able to cut through metal like it was tissue paper. If Exia had started shooting at those ships with it's beam cannon the ships would probably have had enormous holes in them and immediately started to sink.

Well, I'm not really talking about plot devices here. It's all well to say the Gundams are invincible and will win every battle by default, but that wouldn't make a very exciting series, would it (nor would it explain why Setsuna was trying to avoid Graham's shots in this episode)? I don't know if that's a Gundam tradition, though, because this is my first Gundam, but I still hope it's not.

Still, those ships probably were nuclear powered and thus they would have plenty of energy for their own beam weapons or rail guns that could send the Gundam back to the orbit (in pieces) in necessary. If the Gundam could take the damage from future ships' main guns and missiles without a scratch... Well, then it would be the high time to drop such a children's series. But once again, I'm hoping that's not the case.

[Yukimura]

I didn't realize this is your first Gundam series Kraco but that explains some things. It's basically a tradition that at the beginning of a new Gundam time line beam technology at a mobile suit scale is pretty much unheard of if it exists at all. Then the first Gundam(s) of that time line tend to come along and utilize beam technology and everyone else is completely shocked and overwhelmed by it until they acquire the technology themselves and put it into newer models. It's also tradition for Gundams to be significantly faster, more maneuverable, and harder to damage then any of the grunt suits they fight against unless said suit is piloted by a named character. 00 has not really demonstrated that the Gundams are as indestructible as some of the other suits to carry the name but at the end of the day this show is a Gundam show so I wouldn't expect to see a bunch on nameless soldiers disabling or even damaging any of the Gundams no matter what tricks they might have up their sleeves. And as to your comment about the dodging that's another Gundam tradition. A 50-60 ton machine being able to dodging rail gun shots or laser blasts from a few hundred meters away is par for the course assuming the pilot of the machine has a name. If that sort of thing bothers you you might as well just stop watching.

And you're right about the scene at 15:49 looking like a radar display. That scene is in direct conflict with most of what we've seen so far with Gundams and radar. Since the screen was acting very much like a real radar screen I must assume either the writers don't know how to maintain both current technological accuracy and futuristic technological continuity or the Gundams can simply turn their radar cloaking on/off at will.

As to the weapon guidance issue I don't doubt that in the future guided weapons could be made capable of switching to visual guidance depending on the situation. However I don't see any reason why anyone would ever put that sort of technology into a guided weapon. As I mentioned before it's extremely easy to fool. A visually guided weapon would be significantly less effective at night and wouldn't be able to cope with something as simple as a smokescreen, why would anyone spend the time and money to developing such a sophisticated visual guidance system when an enemy could so easily counter it? Your point that a Gundam probably wouldn't fool a visual guidance system is not a compelling reason for the militaries of the world to have paid for the R&D and mass produced weapons incorporating such guidance systems in a world where there main concern would have been potential war with one of the other super powers.

[Kraco]

Well, that could be true. The major power weapons so far as mass production models, after all. I have to admit that's a very good point. Still, it's hard to imagine the major powers wouldn't have any drastic electronic warfare methods of their own (though how helpless they are when facing the Gundam caused disturbances kind of suggests they have forgotten to do their homework...).

It's not like I was so far THAT disturbed by the emerging Gundam traditions, after all, we haven't really seen that much yet. The Gundams have only fought against clearly inferior opponents so far, aside from the last fight with Graham that Setsuna (surprisingly) had the balls to avoid when he could. I'm only hoping eventually we will see some.

All the latest talk in this thread was, after all, nothing but speculation of what might have happened if the Gundam attacked the fleet. But because that didn't happen, anybody's guess is as good as anybody else's. I'm only saying that if a single Gundam will start to annihilate fleets like that clearly from within the point defense distance and doesn't get a scratch out of it... Then I might decide Gundams simply aren't meant for me. FMP is one of my most favorite series but it never gave that kind of feeling, and you can't say it doesn't share some similarities to even this series.

[Yukimura]

Lol it's funny that you mention a Gundam raping fleet scenario considering that in an episode of Gundam Seed Destiny the main character got pissed off and sunk around a dozen surface ships all by himself armed with only a double sided sword (he took no damage either). However, 00 has not introduced the type of technology that the SEED universe had that allowed for such a feat to take place.

[DeathscytheVII]

Interesting episode, i like the small surprise when the gundams started attacking the small country's forces. However, I do wonder if CB is treating the three big factions differently. Considering their declaration stated that they will attack any country with a military agenda, yet they left the Union fleet alone. I dunno, but sending an armed force to coerce a country back into a union counts as a military agenda to me.

I guess CB wants to avoid the sort of power vacuum that destroying one of the three powers would entail, so their declaration does not apply to countries who have a military agenda to wipe out CB but how will they deal with them i wonder.

[masamuneehs]

I do wonder if CB is treating the three big factions differently. They left the Union fleet alone. I dunno, but sending an armed force to coerce a country back into a union counts as a military agenda to me.

i don't think they'll need to wait long to try to fuck over the Americans (who, in this episode were expressly named as one of the warmongering superpowers, showing the Union to just be their political front after goat raping over Central and Southern America). Considering they've got the most effective anti-Gundam unit operating so far (named Graham Acre; since those two guys with him is cannon fodder).

i wouldn't be surprised if the Union fucks up and does something overly aggressive soon, getting CB to really target them for a true confrontation between Setsuna and Graham.

[shinta|hikari]

It is almost a sure thing that the gundams will eventually start destroying enemy fleets in the future, but that is probably after they give them their first power up and want to show it off to start attracting buyers for the model kits.

[Buffalobiian]

And you're right about the scene at 15:49 looking like a radar display. That scene is in direct conflict with most of what we've seen so far with Gundams and radar. Since the screen was acting very much like a real radar screen I must assume either the writers don't know how to maintain both current technological accuracy and futuristic technological continuity or the Gundams can simply turn their radar cloaking on/off at will.

The Gundams can indeed turn off their cloaking at will, and vice versa. This was demonstrated in ep1 where they picked up Exia on radar, lost it, then tracked it again using visual means.

Also, when Graham met Setsuna while still using the unmodified Flag, he said the most likely reason he found him was that he wasn't cloaking himself. (ep3 I think).

In both scenarios, the Gundams were using those light particles as propulsion. I guess it might be the intensity (unlikely though), or some other property (such as, wavelength, hence frequency) that may contribute to the jamming action.

As for treating the large powers differently, I don't really agree. From the way they talked about their objective (CB's objective as a whole) and the way they speak and act, they are doing everything by the book, or their book. They deemed the "starter of conflict" Tairibia and they felt that was all that they needed to justify their attack. If America started some sort of conflict openly, I'm positive they would take similar action, cept they'll send Virtue in there too. CB is powerful, but they're cautious and not overconfident about it. As for the civil war in Sri Lanka, they both sides seemed really keen on taking each other out, so they both started it. Result: CB got them both.

[Kraco]

I guess CB wants to avoid the sort of power vacuum that destroying one of the three powers would entail, so their declaration does not apply to countries who have a military agenda to wipe out CB but how will they deal with them i wonder.

Destroying one fleet would be far from destroying one of the major powers, though. It didn't look like that big of a fleet, anyway, probably only enough to beat whatever forces the small rebel country might have had.

If they really tried to destroy all the armed forces of a major power, they would face nuclear weapons and that wouldn't serve anybody's best interests... But then again, they only said they want to stop wars, not destroy things as such. This time it worked well like this because it's unlikely the USA would start a genocide in Taribia or anything like that.

[Y]

This series is coming along pretty decently (since it hasn't endorsed the ideas behind Celestial Being overtly yet). I still find it hard to take a giant man-shaped robot seriously as a weapon of war but at least they make efforts in explaining why the Gundams are actually worth a shit compared to traditional weapons, even if it is just "They are powered by SUPER SCIENCE!"