Naruto Chapter 363

[KCMmmmm]

I thought Zero WAS Payne?

Yeah, Zero is Pein. And, since it is spelled "Pein", lets go with that. He isn't the character from Final Fantasy X-2.

I just would also like to add another possibility to disprove the "Kakashi gained MS from guilt about getting Obito killed theory". Even if Kakashi's supposed guilt resulting from killing his best friend could awaken Mangekyou, there is also the question of who is truly his best friend. We know that Kakashi honors Obito as a soldier, and respects his final gift - judging by how he relies on Sharingan, and the change in his personality and tardiness after Kakashi Gaiden. However, I'd like to point out that Kakashi never liked Obito until just before his death; so I see at least a slim possiblity that - while he certainly respects him - Kakshi never considered Obito to be his single best friend.

In other words, Kakashi may have gained Mangekyou from killing another character, or may even have found another route to discovering MS. (I know I've elaborated on this idea multiple times before, but as it is regularly ignored, I felt I should point it out again.)

In any case, we should probably drop the whole argument....it's tiresome, and has never once led to any real certainty.

[Death BOO Z]

well, we never thought Sasuke cared about Naruto, but then he had all the cliche'd moments over at the cliff fight. so we can't relly on that.

there might be another way for the M.Sharingan, but nothing was hinted towards it, so it's as irellevent as saying "OMG! this new guy is Naruto's dad!" wherever someone new comes out. if there's something like that, then we'll find out about it, some day.
however, if there is more than one way, is it possible to get a double MS? like kill your best friend and then do the 2nd thing? maybe you can have a diffrent M/Sharingan type for each dot? up to six diffrent abilities? the ultimate way of cheapenning out what was once (about a gazzilion chapters ago) a cool thing.

who is zero? is it the leader? the newly introduced zombie? I don't remember the name coming around...

about my take on Kakashi's sharingan?
well, remember the purple haired girl? the one people keep refering to as Rin despite the hair color diffrence? maybe Kakashi told her about this MS thing and she made him kill her so that he could protect Sasuke?
stupid? yes. dumb? yes. Out of charecter? hell yeah!
but possible.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Nobody has the answer, that's why nobody else starts spewing random theories that are easily proved wrong. Also, I believe that Itachi merely told Sasuke that he had to kill his best friend to get the MS because he wanted Sasuke to feel pain and suffering (as if killing his clan wasn't enough)

Also, I dunno why I also thought Danzo (...the roots guy) was meeting Zero and Payne.

Oddly enough, that seems like a random theory to me. And my theory about why they placed the MS/KS in there has not been proved wrong yet. The only way that it will is when Kakashi says..."BTW....The MS came from this...." So until then I am not wrong and I am not right. That is what these forums are about week after week, I think that you guys forgot about that, so narrow minded in your own ideas that you cant even allow someone else to have an idea. Must be nice to have all the answers...

[Yukimura]

who is zero? is it the leader? the newly introduced zombie? I don't remember the name coming around...

The name Zero is from the anime thread as far as I can tell. It refers to Pein/Akatsuki Leader. When Akatsuki was first shown in the anime they focused on each member and the symbol they stood on on that big bijuu sucker thing. The leaders symbol we Zero so people started calling him that.

[Honoko]

The name Zero is from the anime thread as far as I can tell. It refers to Pein/Akatsuki Leader. When Akatsuki was first shown in the anime they focused on each member and the symbol they stood on on that big bijuu sucker thing. The leaders symbol we Zero so people started calling him that.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) Masa was the one who arbitrarily declared the leader guy as "Zero" in a post and everyone went along with it.

[ChaosK]

So..uhh who's the final akatsuki member that doesn't even have a forehead protector of a village she's exiled from?

[chet_chetty]

Tobi may possibly be the mysterious figure. The figure says "Sharingan's power was shown well" indicating he saw Sasuke's fight w/ Deidara and specifically noting his incorporation of Sharingan in the fight. Tobi was the only one present for the entire fight who's death is not confirmed according to Zetsu. We do not know how long he was there for, but Zetsu being there for some duration of the fight may point to him being the mysterious figure but I can not really think of any commentary about Zetsu hinting that.

It just really gets me how Kisame brings up Tobi, Zetsu says he may have died, Kisame positively acknowledges Tobi, Pein negatively acknowledges Tobi as someone expendable and keeps the topic on Deidara, Kisame again gives positive account to Tobi's life and memory, then Pein rather abruptly makes his leave and the last thing he says is once again to mourn Deidara quietly keeping attanetion on Deidara and away from Tobi once again.

It's also weird because Pein has up this point acted as a leader who cared for the wellbeing of his subordinates and gave his condolences for every dead Akatsuki. Not only did he not mourn (or ask the others) to mourn a fellow team member, he insults the guy as a ninja right after his death. Very out of character for Pein imo.

[KCMmmmm]

Tobi may possibly be the mysterious figure. The figure says "Sharingan's power was shown well" indicating he saw Sasuke's fight w/ Deidara and specifically noting his incorporation of Sharingan in the fight. Tobi was the only one present for the entire fight who's death is not confirmed according to Zetsu. We do not know how long he was there for, but Zetsu being there for some duration of the fight may point to him being the mysterious figure but I can not really think of any commentary about Zetsu hinting that.

It just really gets me how Kisame brings up Tobi, Zetsu says he may have died, Kisame positively acknowledges Tobi, Pein negatively acknowledges Tobi as someone expendable and keeps the topic on Deidara, Kisame again gives positive account to Tobi's life and memory, then Pein rather abruptly makes his leave and the last thing he says is once again to mourn Deidara quietly keeping attanetion on Deidara and away from Tobi once again.

It's also weird because Pein has up this point acted as a leader who cared for the wellbeing of his subordinates and gave his condolences for every dead Akatsuki. Not only did he not mourn (or ask the others) to mourn a fellow team member, he insults the guy as a ninja right after his death. Very out of character for Pein imo.

Unless Pein never really considered Tobi to be a true member of Akatsuki. He seems to recognize ability more during his appearance in this chapter, than fondness. He claims that Deidara was "special", and Tobi was "a man whose abilities could be easily replaced". You're right though, it does seem a bit out of character; unless he is trying to cover up Tobi's survival, which is what I believe you are hinting at. I don't think Tobi can have died; he hasn't yet done anything to vindicate his existence. Using a behind the scenes move to defeat the 3-tails doesn't count; Kishimoto could have done that without creating a new character.

[darkmetal505]

Now I know where Deidara got his inspiration for his final attack from! Spongebob!

[fahoumh]

So..uhh who's the final akatsuki member that doesn't even have a forehead protector of a village she's exiled from?

Her name still hasn't been revealed...maybe we'll get a name in 364? (fat chance)

EDIT: LOL @ darkmetal's post

[February]

@KCMmmm

Even though Kakashi acted like he didnt care about Obito before his death, you can obviously see a strong bond relation despite the acting similar to the friendship of Sasuke and Naruto when they acted like they didnt like each other.

And because Obito was the only actual friend we've seen of Kakashi's (Sorry Gai doesnt count) and because he seemed so stressed about protecting his friends (shown in the beginning ninja introduction) that he couldnt (Obito), it all makes it safe to assume that Obito is Kakashi's best friend.

EDIT:
Oh, and I remember when Sasuke was talking to Kakashi under the tree. And Kakashi tells Sasuke that all his closest people died already (another reference to Obito?)

[Raven]

Why are people saying things are so "out of character" for Zero/Pein? When has he had character development? All we've seen so far from him is an order here and there and a bit of a spiel about taking over the world. I don't really get why him saying Tobi was expendable surprises people.

And it seemed to me that all the Akatsuki found Tobi annoying so it doesn't surprise me in the least that generally they wouldn't care if he died. Didn't he only get in because he found the ring? I guess we don't know that for sure.

[Assertn]

Tobi may possibly be the mysterious figure.

That's interesting, because I was also comparing akatsuki to shishio makato's main group from Kenshin (was it like, the 12 katana or something?), and how the stupid fat one ran away and later turned out to be a spy for a more powerful villain.

[ody]

I thought Zero WAS Payne?

Zero is the Naruto-looking dude, Pein is the female.

The guy in the background is Brian Peppers.

[Carnage]

@Assrtn: it was the Juppongata (did I spell that right?); shishio's top ten.

I really like the idea that the hidden guy is tobi....it would be one of the best guesses I've ever heard of pertaining Naruto except that tobi's personality doesnt allow me to see him as a super-villain.

[*Enlighten*]

Tobi first off all is a big plot in there series, he is that type of character who gets introduced as a simple insignificant character but let alone going to bring some depth to the series.... he is that type of character that is unknown but yet downgraded because little is known plus even the Akatsuki group belittle him... whether or not he is really Obito ??? Is still questionable my guess is Tobi wouldn’t be introduce so late in the series to be irrelevant..

It’s a plot cover-up for what you may ask who knows???? I’m not declaring to be a “know it all” but every character seems to be introduced in the series so far has played a role….Tobi to be introduce as a new member of the A-team just to be demolish by the aftermath of Deidara explosion??? is to hard to swallow furthermore, I believe he is very still alive and kicking .

Pein or Pain however you want to spell or pronounce it let alone looks exactly Naruto??? Is it his Father? Mother ? Sister? Brother? We can go down the family tree line to pin point a right conclusion but still in most anime’s usually the main character is either an orphan or have one parent so it wouldn’t surprise me if he did or did not have a relative…. there is still some questions to be answer… and to top it off the leader looks like he is taking orders or working from a higher authority lurking in the shadows…. now there is more speculations which is a good thing, but I believe the Sharingan was suppose to be introduced to the show to imply that there are a lot of different ninja techniques and blood line limit but ultimately the Sharingan seems to overwhelm the series just ******a little

by the way I’m *Enlighten* I’m the “new guy” hello to everyone

[Assertn]

Nah Tobi won't be the mastermind....he'll be an infiltrated spy for the mastermind.

In that regard, the question would be, would Pein know about this? If he did, then that could be why he shrugged off Tobi's death, since he'd know that Tobi didn't really die. If he didn't, then maybe he truly did underestimate him.

[Idealistic]

Zero is the Naruto-looking dude, Pein is the female.

The guy in the background is Brian Peppers.

No, Look at the pictures... When they call for Pein, it's refering to Zero(Zero isn't his name btw.). The person in that panel has 2 fang-like marks under his lip.

@Enlighten. I agree, Sharingan seems to be the overwhelming bloodline. Also, there aren't enough "normal" ninjas who just happen to be godlike. They always happen to have some sort of mutated bloodline.

[KCMmmmm]

No, Look at the pictures... When they call for Pein, it's refering to Zero(Zero isn't his name btw.). The person in that panel has 2 fang-like marks under his lip.

@Enlighten. I agree, Sharingan seems to be the overwhelming bloodline. Also, there aren't enough "normal" ninjas who just happen to be godlike. They always happen to have some sort of mutated bloodline.

Guy is pretty decent. Jiraya is supposed to be "godlike", and he doesn't seem to have a bloodline. Sasori didn't have a bloodline or mutation - unless you count the fact that he put himself through intensive puppet body surgery. But for the most part, yeah - the powerful guys are freaks.

[chet_chetty]

In that regard, the question would be, would Pein know about this? If he did, then that could be why he shrugged off Tobi's death, since he'd know that Tobi didn't really die

That's exactly what I was implying.

More speculation...

Pein, female Akatsuki, and the mysterious figure know something that none of the rest of Akatsuki knows.

The whole war/economic monopoly reason Pein gave for the existence of Akatsuki is a ruse to manipulate Akatsuki to capture all the bijuu and they will do it because they think each of them gets to be the next jinchuuriki for their respective bijuu.

Capturing the all the bijuu serves as a goal for an unrevealed plan of epic proportions known amongst the suspicious 3.

Either Sharingan, or Sasuke w/ his Sharingan, is another thing to capture in the same vein of capturing all the bijuu. I'm thinking that's actually the most important thing above the bijuu except possibly Kyubi.

I want to say that ultimately this manga has always came down to Kyubi and Sharingan as the 2 most powerful forces/entities in the Naruto universe. But I have to admit my opinion is biased because of the Uchiha/Tengu theory. But the mysterious 3 seem to want (Sasuke's) Sharingan which ups the importance of Sharingan in the story moreso than ever before.

Itachi knows more than any other Akatsuki (besides the 3) and he is a wildcard in all this.