School Days

[Yukimura]

@shinta: Several of your posts have been fairly easy for me to misunderstand which is why I keep seeking clarification. Your edit above did not offer me as much as I would have liked. I perceived that you disagreed with my assessment of your values, but then what are your values in your own words?

In the scenario I outlined above with the gun and the person who made the claim to the wielder that it was not loaded would you or would hold the person who said the gun was empty accountable for the death if the person with the gun pulled the trigger?

To respond to your mother scenario with more misunderstanding:
Your statement "She cannot be blamed for your death" is that supposed to mean legally blamed or that my family shouldn't be angry with her because of what the son she raised did? Because you mentioned not being charged with murder in the next phrase I am inclined to think your first comment is not talking about legal blame but some other kind of blame. Since you're probably tired of reading responses based on my misunderstandings I will wait for clarification before posting a response.

[shinta|hikari]

Most of my posts were answers to Mfauli's arguments, thus they were not explained in detail, since in depth explanation of my own views will only deviate from my criticisms of his views. I do understand why you misunderstood, and it is a good thing that you now ask for clarification before concluding on what I actually meant by what I said.

First, in your scenario about the loaded gun, obviously, the person that told him that the gun was not loaded was accountable for the death, since the person that actually shot it believed that the gun wont fire any bullets and therefore cannot hurt anyone. The problem with your analogy is that it does not apply to Sekai's scenario. It is technically a false analogy since the situation is much too different.

First off, it is quite obvious that if you tell someone that a gun is not loaded when it is, the danger that it will injure or kill someone greatly increases. That is in fact something that the person who lied should know, and therefore, any injury or death caused by his lie is his responsibility. However, part (though only a small part) of the responsibility does lie with the shooter, since he indeed didnt check. There is an obvious direct connection from the lie to the death, as causative factor and effect.

As I have already stated 3 or 4 times, Sekai's case (at least the case being argued by Mfauli that she is the "cause" of everything) is different. She may be held responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura with her as a result from her tempting practice sessions (though Itou is also partially responsible as with the shooter), she does not have anything to do with Itou sleeping with Kiyora, or the rest of the gang, as well as running away from his responsibilities. Sekai probably knew that Itou might go for her instead of Katsura because of her actions. She is then partly responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura in terms of motive. But consider this. Did Sekai even think that her actions could possibly cause Itou to become a sex jerk? Of course not. She simply thought that Itou chose her over Katsura since Itou loves her. So then she is not to blame for the following events in terms of motive.

If for example the shooter did shoot someone, and then suddenly realized that he loves to kill (despite knowing that killing is wrong, like how Itou knew that cheating and lying to women was wrong but kept doing it) and started killing huge numbers of people, those deaths can no longer be blamed to the person who lied, since that is obviously the twisted decision of the shooter himself. This basically means that the person that lied did start it, but he was not the "cause" of the entire killing spree, since the weight of the fault lies mainly on the choices of the shooter. I am not saying that the liar is fault-free (as Sekai is hardly fault-free either), but it is absurd to attribute events that Itou (shooter) initiated and conducted without (liar) Sekai's control to (liar) Sekai.

About the mother part, indeed aside from legal liability, there is also the moral issue. Of course the family CAN be angry at the mother for raising her son badly. But they cant be angry at her for killing their family member, since that was an act committed freely by the son. To clarify, I will ask you this: Who do you think the family members of the murdered person will feel more enmity at, the mother, or the killer son? Anger in this case, is reflective of who the victim's family believes to bear the responsibility of the crime. I argued this way since Mfauli was trying to prove that the main responsibility or fault lies with Sekai (which I believe to be untrue), as seen from his posts.

I hope this long post clarified everything. I actually think its pretty clear if you simply understand my previous posts in the context of the entire argument, and not in bits and pieces.

EDIT: IMO, "values" are too complex and its applications too varied depending on each situation to put into words, much less a few lines in a post. If you have to know my "values", I think the best way is to try to discern them from how I explained my views intead of asking for a text definition of it which will ultimately fail in capturing its essence. I do believe though, that simplifying "values" is never the best way of understanding them.

[MFauli]

she does not have anything to do with Itou sleeping with Kiyora, or the rest of the gang, as well as running away from his responsibilities

I more than enough explained that. We can consider Itou being a normal boy in the beginning of the series. Imagine him as a blank sheet of paper. Then Sekai helped him and the sheet of paper got some first information about "love". Then Katsura didnt want to have sex right after them becoming a pair. New information was written onto the sheet of paper ("girls need some work, you have to gain their trust"). BUT: Now Sekai comes and offers her training lessons. She interrupts the normal process of finding out what love/a love relationship is about, and adds another piece of information onto the sheet of paper: "It is okay to have sex with other girls, even when being in a relationship".
I admit it is kind of big interpretation, but if Itou wouldnt have gotten this information, he´d never have fucked Kiyora, Kato, or anyone else.

Sekai probably knew that Itou might go for her instead of Katsura because of her actions. She is then partly responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura in terms of motive. But consider this. Did Sekai even think that her actions could possibly cause Itou to become a sex jerk? Of course not.

Yeah, of course not, because she was stupid, ignorant and selfish. She didnt care about Katsura, and she didnt care about Itou. She wanted Itou, nothing else mattered.

If for example the shooter did shoot someone, and then suddenly realized that he loves to kill (despite knowing that killing is wrong, like how Itou knew that cheating and lying to women was wrong but kept doing it) and started killing huge numbers of people, those deaths can no longer be blamed to the person who lied, since that is obviously the twisted decision of the shooter himself.

And still the person who lied is the cause of everything. Whenever something like that happens, a limit is broken. You know, there are legal limits, like someone never had sex and says "i dont need", and once he had, he cant have enough. Or some says "i hate Sushi, raw fish is disgusting" then tries it and loves it. These are limits that break or dont break. But something or someone is always the cause. If someone is a killer deep within, you cant blame him, because under normal situations he´d never do anything bad. The cause is the cause and remains the source of everything that happens after certain actions.And before you come with an argument like "so Sekai´s mother is the cause for she raising Sekai", no. That´s a natural happening. You cant do anything about that. But i doubt Sekai letting fuck herself was a natural thing...well, maybe to herself, lol.

[shinta|hikari]

Haha, you are making a fool of yourself. I suggest you stop now.

No one is a blank sheet of paper. Itou was alive for more than a decade for crying out loud. Are you really trying to say that he knows absolutely 0 about anything (or specifically women)? You yourself admitted that Itou was more likely to react in such a manner to Sekai's practice sessions. Why is this so? Obviously because of his background, and maybe even partly to him being a naturally horny guy. How is being prone to becoming a jerk compared to someone else make him "blank"? It is amazing how you can even think that any person can be that innocent.

Ara. Sekai didnt care about Katsura? She held out for quite a long time even with Itou's insistence of having an affair with her (swimming scene etc.) BECAUSE she cared about Katsura, unlike Itou. She even explicitly stated, while rejecting Itou, that she does not want to hurt Katsura by cheating with Itou.

Ara. You completely missed the point of the argument. Now you even misconstrued my argument for being essentialist (as in saying that there is such a thing as a "killer deep within") You didnt even explain the contradiction in your reasoning that I exposed.

Causative may be that what follows A HAS TO be B, so no other possibility. What you want to express is that it´s not a given that Itou had to react the way he did, therefore it´s not causative, right?
Well, i can agree with that, but: The probability of Itou´s reaction was rather high, if you think about his state in the beginning of the series (where he just wanted sex, Sekai gave him that, thus the reactino was quite obvious).

But Itou being a person that more likely reacts "that" way doesnt take away the fact, that Sekai started it. And you never had an argument to answer that matter.

As seen here, you admitted before that Sekai is not the "cause" but merely the start of the situation before. I have already argued that starting the situation is different from causing the whole mess, which you are asserting. You did not even argue against my argument, but merely gave statements that have no justification. Like this:

And still the person who lied is the cause of everything. The cause is the cause and remains the source of everything that happens after certain actions.

Your argument in that previous post merely argued that Sekai’s actions started the situation (which even I admit in all of my previous posts). It does not prove that Sekai’s actions “caused” everything else that happened. Until you manage to do this, you are simply being a sore loser that cannot admit that he cannot defend his ideas.

If you cant get it after such a detailed and clear explanation, I am forced to believe that you are simply incapable of understanding logical arguments.

EDIT: about the Sekai's mother part of your rant, are you trying to say that raising a child that has no morals is a "natural thing" and that you cannot do anything about it? Well, for one, the mother could have raised her better. And no, I did not even think of such an argument, since it is absolutely idiotic, and thinking that someone will even reply in that way is idiotic as well. What do you mean by a "natural thing" anyway? (please answer this, I am genuinely curious)

[Ryllharu]

Haha, you are making a fool of yourself. I suggest you stop now.

I think this applies to the both of you. You've both begun to repeat arguments over and over.


Sekai did genuinely care for Katsura as a friend...to a point. MFauli is partially correct in saying that she didn't care because we know that Sekai befriended Katsura in an effort to get closer to Itou, after inadvertently seeing his cell phone wallpaper. She wanted to make it up to him after "ruining his love charm" on the first day.

But Shinta is also partially correct. Sekai did start up a genuine friendship with Katsura. Not necessarily a close one (as she was quick to snap up her chance with Itou), but one nonetheless. Sekai was very concerned with having Makoto tell Katsura that it was over between them, and now he was with her. She demanded it over and over, and Makoto kept lying to her.

This series is based off an ero-game. You need to know ALL the details from EVERY path before you can make very specific points about one character or another. We only got the smallest snapshot of Sekai's background. She does not seem to have the most pleasant relationship with her mother. Perhaps we would have learned much more about that if the series had followed a "Good End" path. Anime adaptations of ero-games and love simulators have to appease all fans of the games at least to a point. So time must be spent on Setsuna, Otome, Hikari, etc. We're probably missing quite a lot.

[MFauli]

[QUOTE=shinta|hikari]
No one is a blank sheet of paper. Itou was alive for more than a decade for crying out loud. Are you really trying to say that he knows absolutely 0 about anything (or specifically women)?/QUOTE]

Yes.
That´s why he was so shy and didnt talk to Katsura in the train.
That´s why he was so fixated on having sex, because he never had had sex before.
In terms of "love" Itou was a blank sheet of paper. And Sekai ruined this innocent sheet, therefore being the cause.

Im ignoring the rest of your posting as it´s repetition, nothing new at all.
Only one thing: Yeah, there probably was a higher chance for Itou reacting the way he did, but that´s what you call an individual mind. Noone is the same. But only because some have a higher chance of reacting in a certain way doesnt make them worse persons.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli -

But only because some have a higher chance of reacting in a certain way doesnt make them worse persons.

What can I say... Baka?

Hmm... Homicidal maniacs have a higher chance of killing someone just because they look at them the "wrong way" (or some other unfathomable reason). Following your argument, they are not "worse persons" at all. Ara.

You just said that everyone has an "individual mind" and can thus react in their own way. Saying that Itou is a "blank sheet of paper on love" that will automatically act out whatever is written on it is contradicting your other statement, since it removes his ability to think by himself. BTW, being shy and being fixated on sex is not being blank or ignorant of anything concerning love. It is a normal thing for some young guys.

@Ryll - the arguments we made were simply based on the anime. Anything concerning the Ero-game is of course not included. It may be the "incomplete" version, but nothing prevents us from making arguments and conclusions based on that alone. The reason why I kept repeating the argument is because he keeps ignoring it. I, on the other hand, have addressed everything he said. It is very unfair to equate me with someone like that.

BTW, Mfauli is not partially correct about Sekai, since his statement implied that Sekai didnt care about Katsura at all, and that all she cared about is herself. How can you resolve the idea that both of us are partially correct if his statement is a complete negation of mine and vice versa? If mine is the least bit true, then his statement is completely false, since he generalized, while I gave leeway implying that Sekai did care about Katsura, but not enough to keep her hands off Itou.

I do agree that this has to end, and seeing that Mfauli seems to be stuck and cant respond to the last counter argument, as well as having contradicted himself at least twice, I will let it rest here.

[MFauli]

Believe what you want, shinta.
You havent had a proper argument the last few postings and the only thing to make you seem better is insulting me. One advice: Dont become a politician

[shinta|hikari]

Ara. Right back at ya. One advice: Look up logical fallacies (specifically pertaining to causality).

Here are a few links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...ogical_fallacy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Logicalfallacy.gif

EDIT: I never wanted to be a politician anyway. They arent really the best at making logical arguments. Since you use them as an example, it gives me an idea why you think the way you do.

EDIT for below: What can I say, thank you? <laughs at admitted chauvinist>

[MFauli]

Your "ara" only makes you look even more stupid, shinta

But okay, live in your feminist world where Sekai is greatand Itou is evil.

You know, i loved the show because it´s so awsome to see how Itou fucks every single girl. Oh, soooo awsome. Fucky fuck fuck fuck awsome!
It would have been even more awsome if he´d have had impregnated every girl.



PS: That´s just my chauvinist-counter to your feminist attitude ^^

[Yukimura]

Does there really need to be a feminism vs chauvinism debate in here now too? While it would be awesome, something like that belongs in General Discussion. Since you both recognize your arguments will go nowhere with each other maybe it's time to change the topic to something lighter like which girl was best in bed or which girl swallowed? My money is on Otome for both, since she seemed the most sexually forward and she was so mad when she figured out Makoto was a douche. Maybe she was so upset because she let him do some extra naughty stuff...

[shinta|hikari]

Hey, it was never a feminism vs. chauvinism debate for me. Just an anti-chauvanism one .

Why not a topic about who the best girl in the bunch was? My money is on Otome on this, since she was practically the only one who was able to realize something and gain something good from the encounter. She also seemed the most honest of the bunch, in the sense that she wanted Itou from the beginning, and all she did was consistent and based on that (including pushing herself on him in the culture festival). She was also the only one (from the 4 girls who actually love Itou) who figured out Itou was a jerk in time.

[RyougaZell]

Change of topic, time for me come back...

My money's on Setsuna and (despite the hate) Sekai. Oh... and one of trio... the one that filmed Otome and Itou... can't remember her name.

Why? i don't need reasons, LOL...

And... some pages ago I tried starting a discussion regarding the game endings... and how many were integrated.

Like Sekai's good ending, the dance in the bonfire. But not Katsura's good ending, spending Christmas at a hotel (or something).

[oyabun]

We never saw how these girls in action anyway. I think Otome wins this one too. She's for me the agressive type girl and who will do naughty things for Itou's enjoyment.

[MFauli]

Well, i ´d say Katsura´s mom was the best :P

Anyway, is there a way to play this game you´re talking about?
It seems to add quite something to the series.

[RyougaZell]

Katsura's mom? Was she even in the series -__-??

And unless you can read japanese and have a credit card to order the game from Japan... no... I don't think there is a way for you to play it.

But you can find info on it through the net though.

[animus]

Katsura's Mom along with Sekai's mom have sex scenes in Summer Days along with Kokoro and twins.

[MFauli]

Is Summer Days an anime or what?
Link plz :P

And wasnt there a video that showed the whole School Days-game?
A link there would be nice, too.

[Ryllharu]

Summer Days exists because when the game for School Days came out, Setsuna was a favorite far and away with the Japanese *cough* loli *cough*. The creators made Summer Days, a spin-off that focused around Setsuna rather than Katsura and Sekai.

I think Otome got the worst of it honestly. By that time, Makoto knew what he could get out of most girls who liked him, and he could tell that Otome just wanted to be with him. So he made her do things he knew he wouldn't ever get Sekai to do. Her little bubble of who she thought he was had burst, and she was willing to take what she could get at that point.

Setsuna came out the best. She was an open schemer herself, and knew (or at least hoped) that she could get Makoto to do what she wanted if she let him do her.

Hikari I think ends up being my personal favorite. At least she realized Rape-asshole was a douchebag before she tried to get any closer to him. (She still ended up doing it with Makoto though...) No one is really a winner in this series.

[Yukimura]

If anyone cares...
School Days - 05 - [AniYoshi]
School Days - 06 - [AniYoshi]
School Days - 07 - [AniYoshi]
School Days - 08 - [AniYoshi]