School Days

[MFauli]

Well, we live in a modern world where abortion is nothing strange anymore. So it really is the mother´s choice to keep or not to keep the baby.

As for Itou and Sekai, sure both could be careful about that matter, but in the end, like you said, it´s the mother´s decision, so it´s also the to-be mother´s decision to be careful or not to be careful. If Itou isnt careful, oh well. If Sekai isnt careful, she´ll get pregnant. So one can argue as long as he wants, the main responsibility of pregnancy always lies on the woman´s side.

But now we´re off-topic, arent we? ^^

[shinta|hikari]

@Yuki - You completely misunderstood what I ws trying to say. You agreed with Mfauli that Sekai has ultimate responsibility, but you are saying it on a completely different level. He is basically saying that everything is Sekai's fault, including the wrong decisions of Itou, SINCE she was the one who changed him. Saying that she changed him presupposes that he is not to blame for what he has become. So even if Mfauli keeps saying that he thinks that Itou is NOT innocent and has faults, as long as he keeps such a view, his qualifier is worth shit and basically redeems Itou of the main sins that should be attributed to him in the story. You are simply saying that Sekai started everything on more objective terms (which I still oppose with my argument before), even using legalistic basis for your analysis (which I also do not agree to). But your proposition makes tons more sense than his. --I do resent you calling me "not a good debater" because I am. I do have to admit that I lost my temper because of Mfauli's incoherent and baseless arguments and stopped clarifying the stuff I said, particularly because I thought everyone but him understood my position.--

I just find it unfair that the "practice sessions" became Sekai's fault alone. We musnt forget that when she said to practice the kiss Itou tried to kiss her for real, and that Itou responded to all of it with his own free will. Part of the responsibility of that event is his, an accomplice per se. So if you have to use this event as the triggering cause (which I still do not believe to be the case since it is waaay too far from the result with too many events in between where things could have changed), the fault lies in BOTH Sekai and Itou. It can be argued that since Sekai offered it she is more to blame, but that does not redeem Itou of anything either. This simply means that Sekai didnt make Itou into what he became. If anything, both of the actions at this point changed him (following your way of argument of course).

About the feminist thing, I did qualify it by saying "at least the moderate ones" (extreme feminists are almost like chauvinists only of the opposite sex IMHO). Moderate feminists almost share the same views as I do, and a majority of the people have accepted the reforms they have pushed for in the present world. It is not an exaggeration to say that gender equality is owed to them. Chaunist is a derogatory term due to the fact that most (if not all) societies of the world before was a patriarchy, and this term was utilized to label men who are biased towards men and against women, thereby further oppressing the "marginalized". As you can see, it is because people like Mfauli exist that the term has become negative in meaning.

The main responsibility for an abortion does lie on the woman's side (personally I think that the decision should be a consensus from both parents, unless special circumstances prevent such a thing), but the fact that she got pregnant is half Itou's responsibility. Saying otherwise is obviously extremely biased towards men, and this claim I simply cannot let slide.

EDIT: also my call for Mfauli was to disprove my counter arguments (which he never did, although Yuki gave it a shot), and get someone to agree with his rebuttal (not just the skeleton idea). So technically, Yuki's complaint about my challenge does not apply. I know it sounds like I want to ignore him if he cant do this, and that is because I DO want to ignore him. Listening to anyone argue like him is really a waste of time, especially since he seems hell-bent on keeping his position.

[RyougaZell]

Ok... I'll add another one since the previous ones I posted where general (and ignored).


If you say it is Sekai's fault that Makoto changed... that Sekai changed him... and he wasn't at fault then... using this logic can we say the following?

Rape-boy is in fact innocent and pure and was lead to that situation by Katsura because she allowed him to rape her. She changed him from the innocent pure-boy he was to a rape-boy because Katsura didn't stop him from spreading her legs.

Same situation. 4 characters. If MFauli's theory on Sekai and Makoto is correct, then rape-boy (whatever his name) and Katsura's as well.

[Yukimura]

I do resent you calling me "not a good debater" because I am. I know it sounds like I want to ignore him if he cant do this, and that is because I DO want to ignore him. Listening to anyone argue like him is really a waste of time, especially since he seems hell-bent on keeping his position.

The point of my implication that you were being a poor debater was to help you recognize that you were not displaying the qualities of a good debater in your posts to MFauli. You seemed knocked off track by MFauli's poor reasoning and started responding in a less civilized manner as a result. I sensed emotions and arrogance in your comments instead of just facts and logical arguments. Once you let your emotions into the argument I felt it made you less credible and I called you out on it because I would want to be called out as well. Just because MFauli can't argue his response doesn't mean your claims becomes more valid.

Even if MFauli is as ignorant as you say if you want to have a rational discussion with him calling him names does not help at all. From the wording of your last few posts I sensed more and more emotion from you which made it look like you couldn't withstand the assertions of someone who's points don't make sense to you without losing your composure and attacking them personally.

You said I "completely misunderstood" and then proceeded to explain the differences between what MFauli said and what I said but I would be better able to understand you if you clarified exactly which comment of yours I misunderstood and clarified what it was you were trying to say.

It was and currently is my understand that this was the challenge you offered to the "Blame Sekai for * argument" was this:

Based on your theory that if people affect you in a certain way causing you to become one thing or another they are to blame, Itou screwed Katsura (and everyone else) over, because if he didnt put her picture in his celphone, the whole events of school days wouldnt have happened. Katsura wouldnt have turned psycho and they probably would have lived normally (this is sarcasm, since you probably wont get it. Still, its a valid criticism). Before you reply, please explain how this disjoint in your logic can be solved. Then maybe someone will listen to your babbling.

Was I correct in the assumption that this "paradox" was why you don't agree that Sekai could be the one to blame for the events of School Days?

NOTE: If you are simply tired of this discussion and don't feel like continuing I don't think anyone would give you grief about that. But I would like to think that you are better than anger posting when you are at your wits end. I don't speak for anyone else but I want to understand your reasoning because it's different from mine and yet you so strongly support it, however if you don't want to clarify your argument to me then just say so and I"ll keep my own counsel.

[shinta|hikari]

Its not a paradox. It is a negative example. That was just an example that illustrates how the reasoning used to hold Sekai liable is wrong by showing that using the same reasoning on something else can produce such a senseless conclusion. Let me explain:

My reasoning was simple. Sekai cannot be the instigator or liable as you put it, since so many events have happened in between the "cause" and the "effect". The cause that Mfauli and you are trying to posit is not even directly linked to the final outcome. It doesnt even clearly cause Itou's change in behavior. Sekai didnt force Itou to become anything. The "practice" thing is not causative of Itou's reaction. He could have responded in numerous ways, one of which is to simply not participate in such an activity. Saying that just because Sekai initiated the idea of the practice she is to blame or is liable for all the events that followed is similar to saying that Einstein (since the A-bomb is based on some of his ideas) is at fault for the deaths in hiroshima via the atomic bomb.

To put it in more simple terms, Sekai was indeed "wrong" for doing that practice thing, but you cannot trace back all that has happened to just that. It didnt cause it, nor was it necessary for it to happen (some other event could have led to the same tragedy). You cant blame the swordmaker for the murders a person commits using his sword. You cant charge a teacher to be aiding in tax evasion if his lessons gave a person the knowledge to cheat the system. And you cant say that Itou became a jerk, cheated on those women, ran from his responsibilites just because of Sekai's practice sessions. The logical chain just isnt there. Life isnt a>b>c>d therefore a>d, especially because at any point in b and c there is free choice on everyone's part, and majority of the most influential decisions were in Itou's hands.

I do have to admit that I was getting emotional, and I owe you thanks for pointing it out. In fact, I didnt see one line of your previous post about ignoring the comment if you misunderstood the challenge I gave to Mfauli. It is just that I was surprised as to how foolish Mfauli's ideas and arguments were getting, and how he seemed to not even read or try to understand the arguments and rebuttals I wrote down, that I lost my temper (and I still believe rightfully so).

What you misunderstood was that I didnt posit the condition of me accepting his views if someone agreed with them, but if he somehow defends his views properly and someone recognizes his defense as valid. Since you gave your own explanation it is of a different matter. He has so far not addressed the point (which is the basis of his entire "blame Sekai" theory), much less get anyone to recongize it.

Still, despite the language that I used against him (including calling him an idiot, which I can objectively defend he is), I think that my arguments are sound.

EDIT: Just to clear things up, part of the reason I kept emphasizing that Mfauli is an idiot is because a persons ideas reflect his character and capabilities. If I simply argue on objective terms he will simply ignore it. I really think that he deserved to be reprimanded for the stuff that he keeps spouting, particularly since it can insult or hurt other people (albeit inadvertently).

[MFauli]

My reasoning was simple. Sekai cannot be the instigator or liable as you put it, since so many events have happened in between the "cause" and the "effect". The cause that Mfauli and you are trying to posit is not even directly linked to the final outcome. It doesnt even clearly cause Itou's change in behavior. Sekai didnt force Itou to become anything. The "practice" thing is not causative of Itou's reaction.

That is simply wrong.
You call me poor at debating, but make an argument as the above.
If Sekai´s offering of "training lessons" wasnt causative, then we have to assume that Itou was an i-fuck-everyone-i-want-sorry-at-my-girlfriend-person from the very beginning of the show. And i REALLY dont see any scenes before Sekai´s involvement that´d make me think this.

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

[oyabun]

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

I think he was referring to Itou's friend. And using him as an example

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - you clearly do not know what causative means. Look it up. Nevermind, I will explain it... again.

Causative means that A will cause B, not A may cause B.

Sekai's practice sessions didnt cause Itou to become a jerk. It may be a factor, but it didnt cause it.

Clarification:
If I punch and hit you, you will feel pain (causative since the pain is definitely going to happen)
If I punch and hit you, you may hit back (not causative, since you may or may not hit back, depending on your choice)

EDIT: Sekai's practice lesson is a causative "factor", key word here being factor, emphasizing that it can lead to such an effect. What I meant by causative is that it will definitely produce that result, which is obviously what you are trying to say.

[MFauli]

I clearly understand what causative means, thanks anyways.

If A tells B that it´s ok to kiss/touch/fuck her even though B is in a relationship, then B will think that it is ok.

Your spin is great, shinta ^^

[shinta|hikari]

Or maybe B will think that A is lying/stupid/wrong/does not know what she is talking about and will simply ignore what she said?

Its different from being stabbed in the heart > death, which is causative.

And no, you do not understand what causative means, so I took the liberty of researching for you.

Causative
2 : expressing causation; specifically : being a linguistic form that indicates that the subject causes an act to be performed or a condition to come into being
From Merriam-Webster

EDIT: Oh, and Sekai never said that it was ok to fuck her even if you have a girlfriend. She was actually resisting Itou at that point (case in point - after the swimming scenario). They did end up doing it though.

[MFauli]

EDIT: Oh, and Sekai never said that it was ok to fuck her even if you have a girlfriend. She was actually resisting Itou at that point (case in point - after the swimming scenario). They did end up doing it though.

She was resisting? So Itou is a raper indeed, eh?

[shinta|hikari]

Wow, you managed to ignore my counter argument in the last post completely, and just focus on a side comment.

Anyway...
I am not saying Itou is a rapist (not raper), because he isnt. Sekai was resisting by saying that they should not do it because she feels bad for Katsura. And no one said that Itou is a rapist, so dont use the word indeed in your post (refer to oyabin's post for clarification).

So, how do you plan to refute my argument about Sekai's lessons not being causative?

[MFauli]

So, how do you plan to refute my argument about Sekai's lessons not being causative?

Ok, sorry, English is not my first language, so i ignored that because it´s a bit difficult to explain
Let´s see:
Causative may be that what follows A HAS TO be B, so no other possibility. What you want to express is that it´s not a given that Itou had to react the way he did, therefore it´s not causative, right?
Well, i can agree with that, but: The probability of Itou´s reaction was rather high, if you think about his state in the beginning of the series (where he just wanted sex, Sekai gave him that, thus the reactino was quite obvious).

[shinta|hikari]

Rather high is not definite, so you were wrong. heh.

Admitting that it was rather high because Itou is a person that just wanted sex is actually akin to saying that if it wasnt Itou, then the events that followed wouldnt have happened (or in your terms, would have had a much lower chance of happening). This means that Sekai wasnt the sole cause at all, as you were saying before. In fact, it implies that Itou is partly to blame for what has happened, because Itou, as you stated, has a higher chance of reacting in such a way, compared to someone else.

How do you get out of this now, I wonder?

Oh, and english is not my first language either.

[RyougaZell]

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

This sentence clearly shows im utterly being ignored in my posts, therefore I'll withdraw from countering his posts. If anyone needs a feel to contradict my previous posts be free to do it and I'll gladly answer.

Oh... y el ingles tampoco es mi primer idioma =P

[MFauli]

But Itou being a person that more likely reacts "that" way doesnt take away the fact, that Sekai started it. And you never had an argument to answer that matter.

[Yukimura]

LOl arguing with a bunch of non native speakers is funny.

Anyway MFauli there is no way for you to convince shinta that you are not wrong because you are trying to logically argue an abstraction. shinta has stated he believes only concrete causations transfer responsibility. Example if you pull the trigger on a loaded gun pointed at a person the you are responsible for that person's death. However I think shinta would say if you told another person holding a loaded gun that the gun was empty then you are not responsible for the death the cause if they decide to pull the trigger without checking for themselves.

You (and I) seem to hold that responsibility can be transfered if a person acts in a way that is likely to result in a particular outcome regardless of the other choices. This is a socially preferable abstraction which makes it easier to hold people responsible when they do things that socially they shouldn't have done (like taking advantage of people less intelligent than themselves and convincing them to do things they shouldn't).

This dichotomy is not something that can be reasoned out with words because it's a part of how people choose to perceive the world. I think the way I do because I would want a person who offered a bum on the street money to kill me to be punished regardless of what choice the bum on the street made.

shinta your reasoning is logically sound as it places the blame on personal responsibility. However it is impractical in real world application because at some point people have to trust outside sources and if they are lied to or mislead by that source then the source should share the blame. Logic tends to ignore things like emotions, trust, deception, and expectations but these things all exist in our lives and I don't think it's fair for you to condemn people who aren't willing to sweep them under the rug just because you are. I'm not saying you have to agree but I'm trying to say opinions on who's responsible for what really come down to the personal values of the judge more than some sense of absolute right or wrong.

EDIT: Wait a tick...shinta if you're arguing that people's choices are the ultimate bearers of responsibility then what did Itou do wrong? Everything he did required another person to choose a response to him and as you've implied there are no certainties when dealing with how a person will react to another persons actions. If Sekai isn't responsible for Itou's reactions then is Itou responsible for the reactions of any of the other characters?

[shinta|hikari]

@Yuki - Sekai is not the ultimate cause simply because her action does not even directly lead to the events that happened. Those are caused directly by Itou's actions, and therefore he is liable for them.

Let me clarify... again.

Sekai is indeed at fault for tempting Itou with the practice sessions. But she cannot be blamed for Itou cheating on other women because that is something Itou decided to do. Indeed she started it, but it does not mean that she "caused" it. That is what Mfauli has been trying to prove since the beginning. He was trying to equate the start to the ultimate cause, which I have explained to be illogical.

If a person paid a bum on the street to kill you, then it is obvious that he is directly involved in the result, which is you dying (assuming it succeeds). This connection is not applicable with Sekai. Sekai tempting Itou may have directly resulted in him cheating on Katsura with Sekai, but this has no direct relation to him sleeping with Otome, Kiyora, the twin tail, the three girls, or becoming a jerk with no sense of responsibilty. Again, motive plays a role here (as I have mentioned before), but even wthout that, the connection I think is clear with this illustration.

The reason why I gave that argument against Mfauli is not to say that fault is removed due to the possibility of numerous responses of the other party, but rather to prove that there are numerous possibilities, since he equated "start" with "cause" (cause here being something that will defintely result in the said effect) as a basis in all of his arguments. I never said that Sekai was not responsible. I just stated that (following Mfauli's train of thought) Itou is partly at fault in that "practice" scenario for reacting that way. I think we have already established that all characters in this show are at fault one way or another, specifically because of their responses.

In short, Sekai may be partly to blame for Itou cheating on Katsura with Sekai (arguably the start of this mess), BUT, she is not the "cause" of the entire mess, as Mfauli has argued in all of his posts. As proof, I submit his statements here:

Then came Sekai and showed him that it´s okay to "train" with her, even though he had a girl friend at this point. You can blame Itou, at that point, for being stupid, BUT: You HAVE to blame Sekai for initiiating the whole mess. If she wasnt, nothing else would have happened.

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem.
The later development of Itou is no matter to discuss, because he never would have become this person, if Sekai hadnt done what she did at this moment.
Damn feminist, sorry.

Itou was a normal boy, wanted a hot girl, whatever. He was by no means a bad person in the beginning of the show. Then came Sekai, and made him into a not-caring asshole. From her, he learned that it´s ok to fuck other girls though having a girl friend. After Sekai´s training lessons, Itou just couldnt find guiltyness in fucking other girls...it was normal to him, thanks to Sekai.
If Sekai hadnt done anything after the first making contact with Katsura, Itou would have either learned that some girls dont want to be touched that soon, or he would have broken up with Katsura...the end.
All the tragedy took place because of Sekai. So, yeah, im saying, Itou is the victim of the girls (except Katsura) and Katsura is the victim of everyone.

Sekai ruined Itou, and as an effect of that Itou did certain things wrong. That Itou acted wrong is clear, but the cause of all is Sekai, no matter how you try to spin this fact.

If Sekai´s offering of "training lessons" wasnt causative, then we have to assume that Itou was an i-fuck-everyone-i-want-sorry-at-my-girlfriend-person from the very beginning of the show. And i REALLY dont see any scenes before Sekai´s involvement that´d make me think this.

If A tells B that it´s ok to kiss/touch/fuck her even though B is in a relationship, then B will think that it is ok.

I think its quite obvious that he equates "start" with "cause" in all of these statements. And yet, he admits now that it was not really a cause, but merely a start, saying that Itou was just more prone to being influenced in such a way. This is the argument that I was trying to attack, and I think it is pretty much sunk now.

EDIT: @Yuki - I do understand your point, but even you have to admit that passing on responsibility has its limits. If the mother of the person who hired that bum to kill you was a bad mother that didnt teach her child morals, she still cannot be blamed for your death (and she cant be charged with murder either), even if her actions did make it more likely for her son to commit/plot murder, simply because 1) she never even thought such a thing would happen, 2) she is only guilty for being a bad mother, not a murderer.

You seem to misunderstand me a lot. I cant even begin to imagine how you can think that I am sacrificing emotions for logic, or that I believe that only concrete causations transfer responsibility. Responsibility is there (again with limits), but I wouldnt call it the "cause" as Mfauli did. I would suggest you try reading my posts while placing it in the context of the argument, instead of taking each statement as it is written and generalizing from them.

[Ryllharu]

I don't know if I'm just slow to catch this, but one reading of the word "Itou" can be the verb to dislike or hate, and most notably "to grudge." Certainly intentional, though I don't know if the kanji of his name is the same.

[shinta|hikari]

Thats interesting. On the other hand, one reading for his name Makoto is sincerity/truth/honesty. That is obviously not what Itou's character is. Maybe its a play on words in contrast to his character? A sort of irony or sarcasm perhaps?