School Days

[shinta|hikari]

Boy, Mfauli is just exceeding my expectations. Indeed, idiots never realize they are idiots... Such a pity.

@Mfauli - Me running out of arguments? I gave tons of them. I still have several, unfortunately none of them you can understand. If you dont agree with me, ask anyone in this forum. I bet even your other self will disagree with you.

Itou IS the big enemy of the series. Thats why he died. Thats what the creators intended. That is what is obvious. And that, is what you cant seem to see. Either way, you seem to have changed your argument from Itou being a blameless victim, to him being not just the big enemy of the series. That is simply a pathetic way to escape responsibility for the stuff you said before. Hmm, reminds me of someone (ITOU! ITOU!). Kinda makes me understand why you are so adamant in defending him.

Im not an elitist feminist. Heck, Im not even a feminist. You probably dont even know what the terms mean. You are however, a chauvinist, as you even admitted before.

Just because you like a character because of your sick and idiotic self, dont try and defend him against people with common sense using arguments like "Sekai is the one at fault for everything because she was the one that caused Itou to become a sex drone." that no one in their right mind would accede to.

I will restate my arguments for the purpose of your understanding:
1) Itou is not a robot, he has a will of his own. It was his wrong decisions that caused things to fall apart.
2) Influence can only influence you, not force you to do or become anything.
3) Saying that Sekai is the cause of all this just because she tempted and slept with Itou is a false conclusion, since Itou was half to blame for going after her and screwing her.
4) People's have to take responsibility for their actions and decisions. Itou did nothing of the sort.

Here is a new one:
Based on your theory that if people affect you in a certain way causing you to become one thing or another they are to blame, Itou screwed Katsura (and everyone else) over, because if he didnt put her picture in his celphone, the whole events of school days wouldnt have happened. Katsura wouldnt have turned psycho and they probably would have lived normally (this is sarcasm, since you probably wont get it. Still, its a valid criticism). Before you reply, please explain how this disjoint in your logic can be solved. Then maybe someone will listen to your babbling.

[MFauli]

Sorry, but saying Itou was what he became at the end of the series is just stupid.
Yeah, he wanted more than anything sex with Katsura. But that´s nothing bad, that´s natural. That´s why do mostly dont marry your first girl friend, because you start wanting sex, and then grow into wanting more, an emotional relationship.

Itou was exactly that in the beginning of the series, a 100% normal boy.
Then came Sekai and showed him that it´s okay to "train" with her, even though he had a girl friend at this point. You can blame Itou, at that point, for being stupid, BUT: You HAVE to blame Sekai for initiiating the whole mess. If she wasnt, nothing else would have happened. Or rather, she would have probably ended up with Itou in a peacuful relationship.

And please, read more carefully, i never said Itou was "innocent". At the beginning, yeah, later on, no.

[shinta|hikari]

No one is saying that Itou is evil by default you idiot. Read back and be enlightened.

What everyone is saying that everything that he did after that was screwed up. He eventually became the way he was at the end BECAUSE of his actions and decisions. Sekai and all the other girls did have something to do with it, but they didnt force him to do anything. He CHOSE to do all of the stuff he did on his own. He is not an innocent child, he should have known better, but continued acting like a jerk.

And your argument about Sekai starting everything is pretty much shot full of holes. Read my and RZ's post to understand.

EDIT: And Mfauli, if you still plan to reply, please, please, try to refute the last criticism I gave in my previous post before saying anything else. Your whole argument is based on that, so if you cant refute it, anything you say will simply be pointless banter based on a fallacy.

[Yukimura]

Saying that Sekai is the cause of all this just because she tempted and slept with Itou is a false conclusion, since Itou was half to blame for going after her and screwing her.

I am inclined to believe that if Sekai never helped Makoto with Kotonoha then his initial shyness and ineptitude would have kept them (He and Kotonoha) apart until the crush wore off or high school ended. From that belief (which is based on nothing more than personal interpretation of things not explicitly shown in the anime) it becomes easy to see Sekai as the root instigator of the whole tragedy. It's not like Itou is blameless for his part or that it's all Sekai's fault and no one elses, but when I look for the earliest event that if removed from the story seems likely to avert the final outcome Sekai's assistance kind of stares me in the face.

[shinta|hikari]

Umm, if you read my other post, if you remove the part of Itou placing Katsura's picture on his celphone, such a tragedy wouldnt have occured either. Naturally, that is a foolish assumption and is merely pointless speculation. That is also the case with Sekai's involvement. No one knows what would have happened if she didnt interfere, and no one ever will.

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a celphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical. This is not as simple as a math equation, wherein removing a factor will produce a clear and predictable result. Using this type of reasoning is the same as saying that : "If Hitler's grandfather didnt marry his grandmother, then the genocide wouldnt have occurred. Therefore, since he did, he is to blame for the genocide." Get the point?

In the first place, Sekai didnt know such a tragedy will befall them from such an act, while Itou should have known that what he was doing is hurting people, since he himself admitted that he is "the worst".

[MFauli]

What everyone is saying that everything that he did after that was screwed up. He eventually became the way he was at the end BECAUSE of his actions and decisions. Sekai and all the other girls did have something to do with it, but they didnt force him to do anything. He CHOSE to do all of the stuff he did on his own. He is not an innocent child, he should have known better, but continued acting like a jerk.

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem. Yeah, it wouldnt be alright what else happened, but there´d be nothing else than typical love problems. You build your argument around this, but that´s something that happened in the last episodes. It´s a matter or interpretation, again, but i think, if Sekai wouldnt just have shouted out "im pregnant from you, Itou!!!" in the class room in front of friends and teachers, Itou would have reacted different. At least not as coldly as he did.

in the first place, Sekai didnt know such a tragedy will befall them from such an act, while Itou should have known that what he was doing is hurting people, since he himself admitted that he is "the worst".

LOL, pardon?!?
Sekai´s the only one who sees: "Ah, Itou and Katsura are a pair now" and then choses "damn, but i want Itou....i know that they´re fine, but i have to change that somehow" and then starts her "lessons".
The later development of Itou is no matter to discuss, because he never would have become this person, if Sekai hadnt done what she did at this moment.

Damn feminist, sorry.

[animus]

They were never fine. Katsura and Itou went on their first date, and Itou was like he's like this i s unsatisfactory, or this is boring or w/e. In other words, their relationship wasn't stable, if at all taking off.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - you never cease to amaze me. You can apparently dive to new depths of ignorance with each breath.

Anyway, until you refute the criticism against the basis of your argument, talking to an idiot like you any further is a moot point. If you wish to be recognized (because no one does obviously) at least try to PROVE that it really was Sekai that caused Itou to become that way. The greatest thing hindering that is my counter argument (3 posts up), which you have not addressed. Do that (properly of course, with someone else accepting your explanation other than yourself, and your other "self"), and maybe I will even accept your views.

EDIT: Oh, and your speculation about Sekai's thoughts, are just that, baseless speculation. If her goal was to break them apart, she didnt have to resist Itou at all, which she did quite a few times until she gave in due to his persistence (a point that you seem to ignore each and every time). Your speculation about how Itou would have reacted is also baseless. No one, and I mean no one, probably thinks thats the reason why Itou acted coldly, except you.

BTW, Sekai's lessons = Itou becoming sex maniac that cheats on anyone with anyone and Itou's putting a celphone picture of Katsura on his phone(the very first thing that happened) = events that lead to tragedy follow the same logic. Just wanted to point it out AGAIN, since you never seem to address it.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

[MFauli]

Of course it is baseless, even moreso because it suits your little world of an opionion

because no one does obviously

And dont apply to yourself as "no one", it´s pretty ignorant.

I went in-depth about why Sekai was the start of all the mess. You kept on whining about what an idiot Itou is, what an idiot i am.
If that´s all you have to see, just quit it, but dont emberrass yourself any further, because you clearly dont have a point.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

Nowadays, being a feminist is just as bad as being a chauvinist. But that´s so off-topic, just no, lol.

[RyougaZell]

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem.
.

Oh heck... you didn't write this shit... yes you did....

So in your opinion, all women that get pregnant without wanting too is their fault? Oh hell... till now I was behaving, not calling names... but man... you surely won the right to be called an idiot.....

It could have been ANY of the girls that got pregnant... Sekai was chosen for being a main character...

Makoto didn't want to get her pregnant? He has 2 options... Don't have sex, or at least get his messy little ones OUT of her... alas... he didn't care...

Sekai didn't shout on the class she was pregnant because she wanted, she did it because he didn't believe her and didn't want to take responsability.

Like shinta|hikari now I also dare you to counter his post (first of this page), and mine from last page (last one). If you make a good post, believable I'll withdraw accepting everyone has their own thoughts. Thing you HAVEN'T done in ANY of your posts. Everyone here agrees everyone is at fault but you, who keep saying Makoto is a poor lamb victim of women sitting on his little-Makoto by themselves and getting him in trouble. Poor poor Makoto... he most surely will go to heaven because he was such an innocent poor boy. BAH!

[animus]

Hm, this wasn't mentioned by anybody. But as I was watching the scene where Sekai was killing Makoto, doesn't Makoto say "Thank goodness." as he was dying, and a bloody hand on her dress? Did he want to die for all the shit he's done?

[RyougaZell]

It was commented a few pages back.
My personal opinion is that even at this point he was running away, and was relieved to die, so he could escape responsability and pain. A coward to the end.

BTW... seems the private airing of the last episode will have red blood, less flashbacks and more... sounds *shudder*

[MFauli]

Everyone here agrees everyone is at fault but you, who keep saying Makoto is a poor lamb victim of women sitting on his little-Makoto by themselves and getting him in trouble. Poor poor Makoto... he most surely will go to heaven because he was such an innocent poor boy. BAH!

No.
Please read.
Everyone at first agreed that Itou is at fault, he alone. More than anyone shinta wrote that. THEN i went on saying how it wasnt all his fault, and we THEN agreed that everyone was at fault.
Then some idiot went on saying how Itou was so bad, but the girls werent, and that´s why i kept on writing. Everyone´s at fault, everyone at different times of the series. I only said, and still say, that everything began with Sekai, anything else followed her actions.

[Yukimura]

@animus: If you go to the m.3.3.w website the tl admits this was a mistranslation. Itou simply says "Sekai...." and I think grabs her breast one last time.

Lol @shinta|hikari I would really like to read a thread where you logically outline why it's bad to be a chauvinist but not bad to be a feminist. It sounds nice to just say it but I want to see the logical argument.

Anyway,

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a cellphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical.

My response is simply this, people should always mind their own business unless asked for advice by someone else (life-and-death situations are excluded obviously). If you don't heed that principle and attempt to meddle in someone's life it becomes a two-to-tango situation where both parties share responsibility, the initiator for initiating and the receiver for being letting the initiator affect them. That being said, things like responsibility and blame can be quite abstract since everything has a cause that precedes it. I choose to (arbitrarily) define the initiator of events like these as the first person who made a conscious effort to alter the status quo of the other.

In this case Itou putting a picture on his camera was something he did for himself, so to me no one else shares responsibility for that. When Sekai came along and saw the picture she made a judgment and then chose to say things to Itou based on that judgment. I do not view the fact that Sekai saw the picture that Itou took as a transfer of responsibility back to him because she was not meant to see the picture and it was her choice not to respect his privacy. By acting on information she was clearly not meant to have she becomes responsible for the effects her actions have.

I believe in the legal world this situation would fall under the term liability. I hold Sekai as ultimately liable for the events of the story because of the reasons stated above. A familiar example to many Americans would be the outcome of the OJ Simpson murder trials. While he was found not Guilty of the murders in a criminal court he was found liable for the murders in a civil court. Liability basically means, your had ultimate responsibility for the situation.

As to your call to MFauli to get someone to agree with him that Sekai was the instigator (If I've misinterpreted what you were challenging him to prove then ignore the rest of this post) I have said I did several times already. I hold no special love for MFauli and think he is doing a poor job at arguing his points and has views more extreme than my own. However, he and I seem to share the belief that Sekai has ultimate responsibility for the entire situation, not the specific wrongdoings of any particular character but the situation as a whole. You certainly don't have to agree with that point but if your solution to having more than one person disagree with you is to just ignore the other person and attack the original source more then you're being a poor debater as well.

[RyougaZell]

Yuki... I believe what shinta is trying to prove is that Makoto is in no way innocent, as MFauli stated several times. He stated Sekai was at fault for getting pregnant, and that Makoto was innocent.

Im in no way saying Sekai isn't at fault, since she truly is for meddling, but nevertheless, Makoto is not a lamb, but guilty as well. THAT is what we are trying to do... not find people who agree Sekai is at fault, like I've said, I do believe she is, but to contradict MFauli's statement that Makoto is innocent.

[MFauli]

Yuki... I believe what shinta is trying to prove is that Makoto is in no way innocent, as MFauli stated several times. He stated Sekai was at fault for getting pregnant, and that Makoto was innocent.

Im in no way saying Sekai isn't at fault, since she truly is for meddling, but nevertheless, Makoto is not a lamb, but guilty as well. THAT is what we are trying to do... not find people who agree Sekai is at fault, like I've said, I do believe she is, but to contradict MFauli's statement that Makoto is innocent.

Which i never said.
Great reading skills here, lol.
I said that Itou was innocent in the beginning, not that he wasnt in the middle of the story.
If you think, the whole drama is Itou´s responsibility, then that´s where i disagree. But i never disagreed, that Itou shares blame just like every character in this series.

This argument started because of certain people writing as if Itou was THE person that did something wrong. That´s what i started answering to. That and nothing else.

[RyougaZell]

And what happened to your arguments of:

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai
- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability
- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

You somehow change your arguments and forget your own points.

Whatever... this is going no where. And there are still 2 more hours before I can leave the office...

[MFauli]

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai

Read everything above.
Sekai is at fault in the beginning, then Itou starts being at fault, thanks to Sekai. Nothing wrong about that.

- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability

Also already discussed. Advising Sekai to abort is a kind of taking responsibility. And then we dont know what would have happened if Sekai got the child and Itou saw that.

- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

How is it not?
She didnt care about Itou using a condome and didnt care about other safety actions. Sorry, but that´d be the same as if i had sex with a woman that´s infected with AIDS and me, though knowing that, not using a condome. That´s really her fault. I cant even think of how much of a feminist you had to be to spin that point around.

[animus]

Because Condoms can't break or tear amiright?

[Yukimura]

@MFauli most people who believe in abortion at all believe that only a woman has a right to decide if she's going to abort, and that the man's opinion on the issue doesn't matter whether he's for or against it. These same people also tend to believe that the man picks up a responsibility to the mother to support her (not sure how that works) in addition to a responsibility to the child. These types of people can't really be reasoned with on such an issue so trying to defend the argument that facilitating abortion is a valid way for a man to take responsibility is pointless if someone.

As to the blame for the pregnancy it's both of their faults it would have only taken one of them to either take precautions or stop the sex (Itou never struck me as the type to forcibly open clenched thighs). Yet neither did so both are equally at fault.